Bringing back a banned cheer

[Goosey]

I think it's only the victim who can decide when it's time to move on. Basically, you're saying she should "get over" someone who was a trusted adult sexually exploiting her. That's not for anyone to decide but her.

If the others aren't willing to do such a small thing as drop one of the chants, maybe it's time for her to move on from the group. But, someone has to request that they do so. It's not a big deal.

[TurtleDove]

I think it's only the victim who can decide when it's time to move on. Basically, you're saying she should "get over" someone who was a trusted adult sexually exploiting her. That's not for anyone to decide but her.

While this is true, in my experience a person can only really move forward when they stop allowing the past to dictate their present.  I say this as a person who has been diagnosed with PTSD twice in my life, once after being r@ped by three strangers and once after finding my husband dead after he killed himself.  Both times, I realized that I could allow a horrible moment in time to destroy my future, or I could accept it, "get over it," and move on with a happy life.  I think what some of us are saying is that the girl is not doing herself any favors by allowing the past to dictate her future and if she is struggling with moving on it may help her to address the actual issues rather than a cheer that reminds her of it.

So, yes, it is completely up to the girl.  I just hope, for her sake, she is able to move forward happily sooner rather than later.

[Goosey]

Sometimes you don't "allow" yourself to feel something. Sometimes, outside forces pull those feelings out of you.

Unless you are this girl's professional and licensed therapist, you have no rights to tell her how she should or shouldn't "allow" herself to feel. In fact, it's incredibly irresponsible to go around telling people that if they would just get over it, they could move on and be perfectly happy because in most cases that's not at all true. I'm glad it worked for you, but a lot of people NEED to allow themselves to express and feel those emotions and work through them at their own pace.

There is nothing to indicate that this girl isn't living her life. That doesn't mean she isn't allowed to have her feelings on her past. Ignoring or supressing those feelings can be much, much worse than addressing them straight up. Coming to terms with a past trauma does NOT mean you no longer have any feelings about it.

And as someone who has worked closely with soldiers with PTSD - their feelings that they should just "get over it" and guilt about how they're not "strong" enough are part of their treatment. So, be careful who you tell that they should just "choose" not to have PTSD  anymore.

[RingTailedLemur]

I completely agree with Goosey.

TurtleDove, I find it very difficult to interact with you.  You post about your husband's death very often, and I feel like you are beating us over the head with it.  It seems that you are saying in many of your posts that your route to wellness (if that is where you are, I don't know) is the only correct one and that if you can deal with that horrible event then anyone else can "get over" whatever is going on in their lives.  It comes across as very dismissive of other people's experience.

[TurtleDove]

I completely agree with Goosey.

TurtleDove, I find it very difficult to interact with you.  You post about your husband's death very often, and I feel like you are beating us over the head with it.  It seems that you are saying in many of your posts that your route to wellness (if that is where you are, I don't know) is the only correct one and that if you can deal with that horrible event then anyone else can "get over" whatever is going on in their lives.  It comes across as very dismissive of other people's experience.

I am sorry you feel that way.  I am not dismissive of other people's experiences.  I am simply sharing mine.  I am, for the most part, happy after tragedy.  When I hear of people who have experienced something awful and continue to suffer, I wish they could find a way to not suffer. If they cannot, then they are continuing to suffer and that makes me sad.  I am not saying they are wrong.  I am saying I wish they could find a way to no longer suffer and sharing what worked for me.

Edited to add: I mention what has happened in my life as background because when I didn't I would get comments of "oh yeah, well you've never experienced ____ or real pain so of course it's easy for you to say."  I have never said my way is the only way. 

[Goosey]

I completely agree with Goosey.

TurtleDove, I find it very difficult to interact with you.  You post about your husband's death very often, and I feel like you are beating us over the head with it.  It seems that you are saying in many of your posts that your route to wellness (if that is where you are, I don't know) is the only correct one and that if you can deal with that horrible event then anyone else can "get over" whatever is going on in their lives.  It comes across as very dismissive of other people's experience.

I am sorry you feel that way.  I am not dismissive of other people's experiences.  I am simply sharing mine.  I am, for the most part, happy after tragedy.  When I hear of people who have experienced something awful and continue to suffer, I wish they could find a way to not suffer. If they cannot, then they are continuing to suffer and that makes me sad.  I am not saying they are wrong.  I am saying I wish they could find a way to no longer suffer and sharing what worked for me.

Coming to terms with a trauma does NOT mean that you no longer have any feelings about it. You seem to think if you still occasionally feel sad or upset or anything when something recalls that trauma to you, you're not "healthy" or generally happy or living a fullfilling life. And, again, unless you're someone's therapist, advising them that they should just "move on" or get over it is certainly dismissive and most likely NOT helpful and, at the worst, dangerous. Telling them that their feelings are their fault because they are CHOOSING to have them is counterproductive, insulting and minimizing how the actions of others SHOULD be affecting them.

In other words, the way you "got over" your PTSD ("got over" in quotes because it's not something you just choose not to suffer from anymore) isn't a healthy way or productive way to do it for the majority of people in professional therapy.

You need to be careful to differentiate between sharing your experiences and adding additional burdens to others.

[TurtleDove]

You are misreading what I have said and misstating what I believe. 

"While this is true, in my experience a person can only really move forward when they stop allowing the past to dictate their present."

The quoted is what I said, what I believe, and not an uncommon truth.  I never said to bury feelings, suppress them, or not experience them.  I said to not allow the past to dictate the present.

[Goosey]

But you are also saying that this girl hasn't "accepted it" and "moved on" because this chant makes her feel uncomfortable and emotional about her past trauma.

And you do go on a lot about how people "choose" to let other make them feel a certain way.

In other words, you put the burden on the victim not to have emotions about something.

Either you are poorly communicating your philosophy or you are really being misunderstood here. But it seems to me, from generally reading your posts, you do post a lot about how victims should just get over it and it's all in their hands and a choice they make.

ETA: Sometimes, when your successful experience can actually be detrimental to others' recovery, it's best not to share that. PTSD sufferers often have intense guilt and shame over their disorder and being told by someone that they should just choose to move on is NOT helpful, to say the least.

[TurtleDove]

But you are also saying that this girl hasn't "accepted it" and "moved on" because this chant makes her feel uncomfortable and emotional about her past trauma.

And you do go on a lot about how people "choose" to let other make them feel a certain way.

In other words, you put the burden on the victim not to have emotions about something.

Either you are poorly communicating your philosophy or you are really being misunderstood here. But it seems to me, from generally reading your posts, you do post a lot about how victims should just get over it and it's all in their hands and a choice they make.

It seems both are at play. I doubt we will come to an understanding, but I assure you that you are not understanding what I am attempting to convey.  The best, most succint way I can think of to explain where I am coming from is not that a person should not have feelings.  We all have them.  I have them.  The point is that we can choose whether to allow these feelings to negatively impact our lives.  If you disagree with that, then okay.  In my life understanding that truth has made a world of difference. It has given me power to actually live life.  That is all I am hoping for anyone who has suffered or is suffering.

[Goosey]

a couple points -

Stop calling it that "truth". Often truth implies one path to one goal.

Just because people haven't gotten to the stage of your "truth" yet, doesn't mean they are letting their past trauma cripple their ability to live their lives. It means that sometimes, it does affect them to the point they need to address it. And that's HEALTHY to have that understanding and ability.

And, again, unless you are their therapist, you can't tell them when they are suffering too much or too long. You need to get over the idea that there's a time limit on trauma.

[thedudeabides]

I have to say that that's how your posts come across to me, as well. Everyone has a different timeline for dealing with traumatic situations; that's not wrong or bad, it's natural. Friends of mine came home to find their brother had hanged himself. This was... I think about six years ago now. Most of the time, they remember him fondly, but some days, something strikes them right (or wrong), and they feel sad or a little angry or wistful. That isn't unhealthy; it's natural for them and for a lot of people.

People need to feel a whole range of emotions to be complete. They don't have to be happy or untroubled all the time. For most people, trying to be happy all the time would destroy them because it would require them to suppress their normal, healthy emotions.

For the girl in the OP, it makes sense that she still has a trigger or two. That's perfectly natural, and telling her that she needs to just get over that on anyone else's schedule who isn't her doctor is dangerous.

[Yvaine]

But you are also saying that this girl hasn't "accepted it" and "moved on" because this chant makes her feel uncomfortable and emotional about her past trauma.

And you do go on a lot about how people "choose" to let other make them feel a certain way.

In other words, you put the burden on the victim not to have emotions about something.

Either you are poorly communicating your philosophy or you are really being misunderstood here. But it seems to me, from generally reading your posts, you do post a lot about how victims should just get over it and it's all in their hands and a choice they make.

It seems both are at play. I doubt we will come to an understanding, but I assure you that you are not understanding what I am attempting to convey.  The best, most succint way I can think of to explain where I am coming from is not that a person should not have feelings.  We all have them.  I have them.  The point is that we can choose whether to allow these feelings to negatively impact our lives.  If you disagree with that, then okay.  In my life understanding that truth has made a world of difference. It has given me power to actually live life.  That is all I am hoping for anyone who has suffered or is suffering.

I really do think that it's not coming across the way you might think it is, in "print." It comes up in a lot of threads, about a variety of topics, and the impression is always that you believe negative feelings can just be poofed out of existence by simply deciding not to feel them. Even if that's not what you mean, it's what your posts seem to convey. And when the thread is about, I don't know, someone's feelings about your tastes in home decor, that's just a quirk you have and that's OK. It's making people more upset here because of the severity of the issue. I'm not sure of the best way to phrase this, but you might have a look at the way you phrase your philosophy in threads, because it doesn't come across the way you mean it to.

[Virg]

If I dismiss any level of malice attached to the people involved in this whole thing, it's still not reasonable to continue using the cheer.  Let me take on a few of the choice parts of this conversation.

johelenc wrote:

Unless the cheer names the coach, it's time to move one.  The cheer has nothing to do with the coach and as time goes on no one is going to remember he made it up.  And, that's the way it should be.

Once that's true, then I'll agree with you, but this cheer is hurting a current member of the cheer squad who was victimized by this coach.  Since the single cheer isn't an absolute requirement to having a cheer team, then it should be shelved until it's no longer causing a current squad member pain.  We're not talking about banning everything associated with the coach, just one cheer until this girl graduates.

shhh its me wrote:

If I understand correctly this is a community activity and the team does not start the cheer officially anymore , its either the crowed or a few members starting it up.

The original post said, "One of the new moms, her kid started after the incident, posted a video of the kids doing the cheer/chant.  The older kids are all male, and actually adults, 17, 18 and 20.  They are teaching the kids this."  Older members of the squad are teaching other members of the squad this cheer, presumably in practice.  That's not community activity, it's team members within the squad.

TurtleDove wrote:

If this is a cheerleading squad and the girl is on the squad and is being asked to lead the cheer that would make a difference.  But I didn't not get the sense that is the case at all.

See above.  These are senior members of the squad teaching the cheer to younger squadmates, not "crowd initiated".

I mean I think the girl is upset, but I don't think the logical reaction is to ban everyone else from ever using a cheer that really has nothing to do with why she is upset.

Banning it until that particular person leaves the squad is reasonable.

The quoted is what I said, what I believe, and not an uncommon truth.  I never said to bury feelings, suppress them, or not experience them.  I said to not allow the past to dictate the present.

These may be wise words but we're talking about a teenager here.  Dropping a single cheer from the roster isn't going to send the team down any slippery slopes and it's only got to be until she's done with school, so a few years at most.  It just seems so entirely unnecessary to use a cheer that's going to bring up bad feelings in a current squad member when there have to be a hundred other cheers they could use instead, so in this light I see the dismissiveness as very insensitive.  Said shorter, if the best you can come up with to tell this girl is "don't let the past discate the present" then you should reflect on why this particular cheer is so very important that its presence in the lineup is more important that her feelings about the matter.

The point is that we can choose whether to allow these feelings to negatively impact our lives...In my life understanding that truth has made a world of difference.

This girl is a teenager.  Bully for you that your experiences have led you to this level of peace but you're asking an awful lot from a high school student, and you're asking it because of something that's pretty unimportant.  Again I ask, what so important about this particular cheer at this particular time that makes it so necessary to the squad that it's worth drumming up these feelings?  Is the "damage" that banning this cheer for three years will do really bad enough to continue hurting her?

Alpacas wrote:

But did anyone ask the girl in question if she minded the use of the chant or is all of this here just based on the theory that she might still feel victimized when she hears it?

MOM21SON posted that "The "main" girl is still very much involved and remains very upset, but quiet about it."

Virg

[TurtleDove]

a couple points -

Stop calling it that "truth". Often truth implies one path to one goal.

Just because people haven't gotten to the stage of your "truth" yet, doesn't mean they are letting their past trauma cripple their ability to live their lives. It means that sometimes, it does affect them to the point they need to address it. And that's HEALTHY to have that understanding and ability.

And, again, unless you are their therapist, you can't tell them when they are suffering too much or too long. You need to get over the idea that there's a time limit on trauma.

Yes, it is clear you are completely not hearing what I am saying because your comments are based on things I haven't said and beliefs I do not hold.  For example, of course there is no time limit on trauma. Of course people should address their trauma.  I never said otherwise.

[Goosey]

a couple points -

Stop calling it that "truth". Often truth implies one path to one goal.

Just because people haven't gotten to the stage of your "truth" yet, doesn't mean they are letting their past trauma cripple their ability to live their lives. It means that sometimes, it does affect them to the point they need to address it. And that's HEALTHY to have that understanding and ability.

And, again, unless you are their therapist, you can't tell them when they are suffering too much or too long. You need to get over the idea that there's a time limit on trauma.

Yes, it is clear you are completely not hearing what I am saying because your comments are based on things I haven't said and beliefs I do not hold.  For example, of course there is no time limit on trauma. Of course people should address their trauma.  I never said otherwise.

I'm glad you don't feel that way, but I am only telling you what I am reading from you and it seems I'm not alone. You might want to consider how you are coming across and how - if you are talking to someone IRL with PTSD with the same clarity as you are posting here - that feeling of dismissive judgement people are picking up from you could negatively affect their mental health and recovery and whether your philosophy NEEDS to be expressed to them or even if it SHOULD be expressed to them if it's more likely to hurt than help.