Author Topic: Bringing back a banned cheer  (Read 12026 times)

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TurtleDove

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #90 on: September 18, 2013, 11:08:52 AM »
a couple points -

Stop calling it that "truth". Often truth implies one path to one goal.

Just because people haven't gotten to the stage of your "truth" yet, doesn't mean they are letting their past trauma cripple their ability to live their lives. It means that sometimes, it does affect them to the point they need to address it. And that's HEALTHY to have that understanding and ability.

And, again, unless you are their therapist, you can't tell them when they are suffering too much or too long. You need to get over the idea that there's a time limit on trauma.

Yes, it is clear you are completely not hearing what I am saying because your comments are based on things I haven't said and beliefs I do not hold.  For example, of course there is no time limit on trauma. Of course people should address their trauma.  I never said otherwise.

Goosey

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #91 on: September 18, 2013, 11:16:02 AM »
a couple points -

Stop calling it that "truth". Often truth implies one path to one goal.

Just because people haven't gotten to the stage of your "truth" yet, doesn't mean they are letting their past trauma cripple their ability to live their lives. It means that sometimes, it does affect them to the point they need to address it. And that's HEALTHY to have that understanding and ability.

And, again, unless you are their therapist, you can't tell them when they are suffering too much or too long. You need to get over the idea that there's a time limit on trauma.

Yes, it is clear you are completely not hearing what I am saying because your comments are based on things I haven't said and beliefs I do not hold.  For example, of course there is no time limit on trauma. Of course people should address their trauma.  I never said otherwise.

I'm glad you don't feel that way, but I am only telling you what I am reading from you and it seems I'm not alone. You might want to consider how you are coming across and how - if you are talking to someone IRL with PTSD with the same clarity as you are posting here - that feeling of dismissive judgement people are picking up from you could negatively affect their mental health and recovery and whether your philosophy NEEDS to be expressed to them or even if it SHOULD be expressed to them if it's more likely to hurt than help.

gen xer

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #92 on: September 18, 2013, 11:21:33 AM »
Sure - the cheer could be changed to something else and it really isn't a big deal to do so.  Part of me says just change it and be done with it.  The cheer seems to be a distracting side issue that isn't dealing with the crux of the problem which is the fact that a pervert got off lightly and there are some team members that seem to think it is nothing.

Still.....I have to wonder if that really resolves anything.   I can't help but think if it's not the cheer it will just be something else that ends up being a trigger.   

This girl and / or her family needs to advocate for themselves a bit more instead of letting everyone else interpret and act on her behalf.  It sounds like people genuinely want to help her but it's chancey to make too many assumptions. 

 There's a lot of speculation on the motives of the team members, whether there is bullying involved etc.  I think that's a little risky to go there.   If you go looking for trouble you're bound to either find it or create it.

K_Bear

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #93 on: September 18, 2013, 11:23:50 AM »
But you are also saying that this girl hasn't "accepted it" and "moved on" because this chant makes her feel uncomfortable and emotional about her past trauma.

And you do go on a lot about how people "choose" to let other make them feel a certain way.

In other words, you put the burden on the victim not to have emotions about something.

Either you are poorly communicating your philosophy or you are really being misunderstood here. But it seems to me, from generally reading your posts, you do post a lot about how victims should just get over it and it's all in their hands and a choice they make.

It seems both are at play. I doubt we will come to an understanding, but I assure you that you are not understanding what I am attempting to convey.  The best, most succint way I can think of to explain where I am coming from is not that a person should not have feelings.  We all have them.  I have them.  The point is that we can choose whether to allow these feelings to negatively impact our lives.  If you disagree with that, then okay.  In my life understanding that truth has made a world of difference. It has given me power to actually live life.  That is all I am hoping for anyone who has suffered or is suffering.

For most people it is not that easy. Time and professional help is needed to move forward and to heal.

I am a former abuse victim. And a widow. With time, help from friends, family, mental health professionals and a grief counselor I did get to the point where I could move forward with life and be happy. The choice was wallow in grief and fear or get help and live my life and look forward. Most people can't just shake a horrible experience(s) off and start laughing and dancing within a few weeks.

Everyone's journey is different, but the important part for most people is to take the time to heal and to come to terms with what has happened to them.

 

Goosey

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #94 on: September 18, 2013, 11:29:38 AM »
Sure - the cheer could be changed to something else and it really isn't a big deal to do so.  Part of me says just change it and be done with it.  The cheer seems to be a distracting side issue that isn't dealing with the crux of the problem which is the fact that a pervert got off lightly and there are some team members that seem to think it is nothing.

Still.....I have to wonder if that really resolves anything.   I can't help but think if it's not the cheer it will just be something else that ends up being a trigger.   

I do agree that there's more that needs to be done. If the girl isn't already, she needs to be in therapy.

The team members who insist that the old coach did nothing wrong need to be educated - classes, therapy, whatever.

But just because FURTHER action is needed to actually heal the hurt that's been done doesn't mean that banning this chant will not do ANY good.

SlitherHiss

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #95 on: September 18, 2013, 11:32:11 AM »
a couple points -

Stop calling it that "truth". Often truth implies one path to one goal.

Just because people haven't gotten to the stage of your "truth" yet, doesn't mean they are letting their past trauma cripple their ability to live their lives. It means that sometimes, it does affect them to the point they need to address it. And that's HEALTHY to have that understanding and ability.

And, again, unless you are their therapist, you can't tell them when they are suffering too much or too long. You need to get over the idea that there's a time limit on trauma.

Yes, it is clear you are completely not hearing what I am saying because your comments are based on things I haven't said and beliefs I do not hold.  For example, of course there is no time limit on trauma. Of course people should address their trauma.  I never said otherwise.

I'm glad you don't feel that way, but I am only telling you what I am reading from you and it seems I'm not alone. You might want to consider how you are coming across and how - if you are talking to someone IRL with PTSD with the same clarity as you are posting here - that feeling of dismissive judgement people are picking up from you could negatively affect their mental health and recovery and whether your philosophy NEEDS to be expressed to them or even if it SHOULD be expressed to them if it's more likely to hurt than help.

This, absolutely and completely.

Teenyweeny

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #96 on: September 18, 2013, 11:33:52 AM »
I really don't get the 'slippery slope' aspect of the argument.

Sure, at some point accommodating this girl may become unreasonable, but at this point no accommodations have been made.

You stop granting requests when they become unreasonable, or if you have reasonable expectation that granting that request will trigger further unreasonable requests.

e.g. You ask me to drive you to a job interview. That request does not seem unreasonable (I have time, I want to do you a favour, it's not far away), so I do it.

On the way back, you ask me to drive you to the shops. That is an unreasonable request in this case (I'm hungry, I want to go home, I have jobs to do around the house), so I say no.

It's not that driving you to a job interview was the first step on a 'slippery slope', it's just that you made one request I was prepared to grant and one that I wasn't.

Not granting a request purely based on the fear of future requests (if this hasn't been a pattern of behaviour in the past) is silly, IMO.



Twik

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #97 on: September 18, 2013, 11:42:06 AM »
I agree. Unless the claim is that school cheers must always be completely uncensored, and that any racist, homophobic, violent or other imagery must remain, because removing it is a "slippery slope," this seems like such a trivial issue to address.

I'd put it like this - let's say someone comes up with a motto for the school. It appears, on the surface, to be completely unexceptional - however, investigation shows that the quote is actually traceable to one of the villains of history. Should not that slogan be withdrawn, even though the words themselves, apart from their author, do not appear upsetting? Can we not argue that there are better sources of inspiration to use?
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gen xer

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #98 on: September 18, 2013, 11:49:08 AM »
 I think we're a little harsh on TurtleDove.  I haven't taken anything she says as saying we are to suppress our feelings, emotions, reactions etc.  I agree that to try to pretend they don't exist or they are a sign of weakness is unhealthy and counterproductive....but you do have to "own" your recovery so to speak.  That just means doing what you need to do to heal and realizing that others can't do it for you.

Let's face it.  The world keeps going despite everything and you still have to live in it.    You do have to make your choice about how to do so. 

For the record my first husband shot himself while we were in the midst of a nasty divorce.  Trust me I still have a hard time seeing sucides on TV or in a movie and it is still hard to hear others talk about it.  Probably always will be.  Of course I would not appreciate someone telling me to get over it or to stop being silly....but I have to accept that my issues are not everyone's issues.  I "will" hear about it....and see it and be exposed to it whether I like or not and trying to isolate myself from it just plain won't work.

shhh its me

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #99 on: September 18, 2013, 11:56:21 AM »

shhh its me wrote:

Quote
If I understand correctly this is a community activity and the team does not start the cheer officially anymore , its either the crowed or a few members starting it up.

The original post said, "One of the new moms, her kid started after the incident, posted a video of the kids doing the cheer/chant.  The older kids are all male, and actually adults, 17, 18 and 20.  They are teaching the kids this."  Older members of the squad are teaching other members of the squad this cheer, presumably in practice.  That's not community activity, it's team members within the squad.



I was picturing something closer to a co-ed softball league.   Were the bench and/or crowd would start chanting spontaneously on occasion.   The exact logistics matter but not that much, I didn't get the impression that the boys teaching it were part of the coaching staff or team captains type thing either.  The Head coach seems to not exactly banned it but just not encouraging/using/staring it ....I'll go back and check the first post but I recall op saying something about it being chanted at events before this.
 


RingTailedLemur

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #100 on: September 18, 2013, 11:56:58 AM »
  I have to accept that my issues are not everyone's issues.  I "will" hear about it....and see it and be exposed to it whether I like or not and trying to isolate myself from it just plain won't work.

But if your friends or colleagues we singing songs about it in your presence and teaching other people to do so, it would be perfectly reasonable for them to be told to stop, would it not?

Another Sarah

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #101 on: September 18, 2013, 11:57:04 AM »
About 5 years ago, DS was involved with a sports team.  One of the young, 20ish, coaches made up a cheer/chant.  All the kids loved it and I admit, I did too.

Well, the coach ended up getting arrested and kicked out of the whole club.  His crime was video taping young female team members in the shower.  He received a slap on the wrist and left town.

Some of the old team members are still on the team that were there when this coach was.  The head coach is still the same.

So this chant cheer was semi banned.  Meaning that once in awhile one of the older kids would start it up but it wasn't a part of regular practice.

One of the new moms, her kid started after the incident, posted a video of the kids doing the cheer/chant. The older kids are all male, and actually adults, 17, 18 and 20.  They are teaching the kids this. 

When I saw it, I immediately got sick to my stomach.  I have no intention of telling anyone new what happened, but I would like to know why the head coach all of a sudden finds this acceptable.

But it is really none of my business and I should stay out of it, right?

I must admit, I am really confused.
Where are people getting the idea that the boys think the coach's behaviour is no big deal? I just don't see that in the OP.

Sure they're being insensitive by not thinking the cheer might be associated with the coach and so upset the girl, but where is this whole "halfway to perverts themselves" thing coming from?

I read the "slap on the wrist" bit as the outcome of the court case after the coach was kicked out of the club and arrested, not the attitude of the club authorities - who wouldn't be teenage boys in any case?

In reference to the original question, I think it's possible head coach/older boys just thinks that enough time has passed. A word in Coach's ear about how it should be shelved until everyone involved has left the club wouldn't go amiss - he must have thought it was inappropriate at one point or he wouldn't have stopped teaching it.

Yvaine

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #102 on: September 18, 2013, 12:00:06 PM »
Another Sarah, we're reacting to the bolded:

I think there are 2 things bothering me.

1.  It was made up by the old coach. There is nothing wrong in it.
2.  The older boys/men thought the coaches actions were "no big deal" 

Edited to add a 3.  The head coach did everything he could possibly do to save this team and remove every possible trace of the coach ever being involved.

SlitherHiss

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #103 on: September 18, 2013, 12:00:34 PM »
About 5 years ago, DS was involved with a sports team.  One of the young, 20ish, coaches made up a cheer/chant.  All the kids loved it and I admit, I did too.

Well, the coach ended up getting arrested and kicked out of the whole club.  His crime was video taping young female team members in the shower.  He received a slap on the wrist and left town.

Some of the old team members are still on the team that were there when this coach was.  The head coach is still the same.

So this chant cheer was semi banned.  Meaning that once in awhile one of the older kids would start it up but it wasn't a part of regular practice.

One of the new moms, her kid started after the incident, posted a video of the kids doing the cheer/chant. The older kids are all male, and actually adults, 17, 18 and 20.  They are teaching the kids this. 

When I saw it, I immediately got sick to my stomach.  I have no intention of telling anyone new what happened, but I would like to know why the head coach all of a sudden finds this acceptable.

But it is really none of my business and I should stay out of it, right?

I must admit, I am really confused.
Where are people getting the idea that the boys think the coach's behaviour is no big deal? I just don't see that in the OP.

Sure they're being insensitive by not thinking the cheer might be associated with the coach and so upset the girl, but where is this whole "halfway to perverts themselves" thing coming from?

I read the "slap on the wrist" bit as the outcome of the court case after the coach was kicked out of the club and arrested, not the attitude of the club authorities - who wouldn't be teenage boys in any case?

In reference to the original question, I think it's possible head coach/older boys just thinks that enough time has passed. A word in Coach's ear about how it should be shelved until everyone involved has left the club wouldn't go amiss - he must have thought it was inappropriate at one point or he wouldn't have stopped teaching it.

A lot of additonal (and very relevant) information was added in the OP's follow-up posts:

I think there are 2 things bothering me.

1.  It was made up by the old coach. There is nothing wrong in it.
2.  The older boys/men thought the coaches actions were "no big deal" 

Edited to add a 3.  The head coach did everything he could possibly do to save this team and remove every possible trace of the coach ever being involved.

Hmm!  I can see both sides to this one.  It seems reasonable to continue to use the cheer as it's unoffensive and separate from who the coach was as a person. 

But if the cheer brings back bad memories for people who hear it -- especially for the girls who were victimized or their parents -- then I think it's worth talking to the current head coach about it.  It may be too soon for the cheer to resurface, especially if the young ladies whose privacy was violated are on the team and hear it.  The cheer itself isn't offensive or upsetting, but for some people it's still associated with a pretty heinous act, and I think it's reasonable to find it upsetting in that sense.

The "main" girl is still very much involved and remains very upset, but quiet about it.

Another Sarah

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #104 on: September 18, 2013, 12:01:14 PM »
Another Sarah, we're reacting to the bolded:

I think there are 2 things bothering me.

1.  It was made up by the old coach. There is nothing wrong in it.
2.  The older boys/men thought the coaches actions were "no big deal" 

Edited to add a 3.  The head coach did everything he could possibly do to save this team and remove every possible trace of the coach ever being involved.
Ah ok makes sense now, seemed like a bit of a leap