Author Topic: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?  (Read 10229 times)

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mich3554

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #105 on: September 18, 2013, 05:36:41 PM »
No, of course not.  And those children were misbehaving, and their parents were very rude to not be supervising them.

The children were not being supervised because their parents were working at the meeting.  There was no chance of them being supervised in the first place, so they were allowed to roam free.

It is comparable to taking your child into work and letting them loose in the building to annoy the rest of the employees.  Just because it is in another location doesn't mean that you're not working and if you're working, you are not capable of supervising your children.

Judah

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #106 on: September 18, 2013, 05:38:09 PM »
But just because it isn't rude doesn't mean that I don't have the right to be annoyed by it or prefer your child not be present.

I absolutely defend your right to be annoyed! But your annoyance at a child's presence in a restaurant doesn't mean the child shouldn't be there. I'm annoyed at all sorts of things that people do, that doesn't mean they are actually doing anything wrong.

And, ftr, I completely understand the annoyance of walking into a nice restaurant, expecting a quiet, child-free evening and spotting a child two tables over.  Maybe you saved for this night for weeks, and hired a babysitter for your own kids, and bought a new dress, and actually put some effort into your hair for a change (thinking of myself here), and you just wanted a nice evening with your spouse. And there's the a kid. That doesn't mean the child shouldn't be there.
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Judah

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #107 on: September 18, 2013, 05:39:16 PM »
No, of course not.  And those children were misbehaving, and their parents were very rude to not be supervising them.

The children were not being supervised because their parents were working at the meeting.  There was no chance of them being supervised in the first place, so they were allowed to roam free.

It is comparable to taking your child into work and letting them loose in the building to annoy the rest of the employees.  Just because it is in another location doesn't mean that you're not working and if you're working, you are not capable of supervising your children.

I don't think this is at all the type of situation we've been discussing.  I don't think anyone would argue that your situation was in any way okay.
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Jones

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #108 on: September 18, 2013, 05:39:52 PM »
I am very glad to see some of these opinions right now  :)

DH has some friends who keep inviting us to late-night things. I stay home with the kids, DH goes. Our go-to sitters are usually family members. I don't want to deal with picking up sleeping children from someone else's home at 11 PM. In the past, I have had family members dump my wine down the sink when they had access to my home(family's religion forbids alcohol, and other things DH and I have and use often, also some family members have a more stringent view on certain "rules" than the rest of the religion officially has) so I prefer not to give unlimited access to my home and possessions to any of them.

DH is sad I don't go to these late-night events. He says that Friends say we can bring the kids. I ask, "Will there be other children?" "Well no." "Will there be alcohol?" "Well yes." "Will there be adults I don't know, inebriated and around my children?" About that time he catches on and there's a bit of frustration because he just wants to go OUT.
 
I'm fine with going out. It just has to be early enough that we can pick up the kids from the sitters' home before they fall asleep...otherwise we are up all night getting them back to sleep, after they wake on the ride home. It sucks, but it's what we signed up for in having children, and I certainly didn't create them all by myself.

EllenS

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #109 on: September 18, 2013, 05:43:46 PM »
No, of course not.  And those children were misbehaving, and their parents were very rude to not be supervising them.

The children were not being supervised because their parents were working at the meeting.  There was no chance of them being supervised in the first place, so they were allowed to roam free.

It is comparable to taking your child into work and letting them loose in the building to annoy the rest of the employees.  Just because it is in another location doesn't mean that you're not working and if you're working, you are not capable of supervising your children.

Ummm... I think you missed the part where i was agreeing with you? No, the children had no business being at the meeting.  The "ands" were meant to be on top of the original problem.

mich3554

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #110 on: September 18, 2013, 05:49:06 PM »
I don't think this is at all the type of situation we've been discussing.  I don't think anyone would argue that your situation was in any way okay.

Someone earlier posted this comment:

I agree. If the establishment allows it, then I get to decide whether or not my child belongs there.

If someone doesn't like his presence, then I don't think they belong there.


And my point is that just because something is not written in the books, it does not mean that the place/situation is appropriate for a child.


esposita

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #111 on: September 18, 2013, 05:49:40 PM »
But just because it isn't rude doesn't mean that I don't have the right to be annoyed by it or prefer your child not be present.

I absolutely defend your right to be annoyed! But your annoyance at a child's presence in a restaurant doesn't mean the child shouldn't be there. I'm annoyed at all sorts of things that people do, that doesn't mean they are actually doing anything wrong.


And, ftr, I completely understand the annoyance of walking into a nice restaurant, expecting a quiet, child-free evening and spotting a child two tables over.  Maybe you saved for this night for weeks, and hired a babysitter for your own kids, and bought a new dress, and actually put some effort into your hair for a change (thinking of myself here), and you just wanted a nice evening with your spouse. And there's the a kid. That doesn't mean the child shouldn't be there.

I'm with Judah as far as the bolded.

WillyNilly

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #112 on: September 18, 2013, 05:50:15 PM »
No, of course not.  And those children were misbehaving, and their parents were very rude to not be supervising them.

The children were not being supervised because their parents were working at the meeting.  There was no chance of them being supervised in the first place, so they were allowed to roam free.

It is comparable to taking your child into work and letting them loose in the building to annoy the rest of the employees.  Just because it is in another location doesn't mean that you're not working and if you're working, you are not capable of supervising your children.

I don't think this is at all the type of situation we've been discussing.  I don't think anyone would argue that your situation was in any way okay.

I do [think this is the type of situation we've been discussing]. Because I think all the situations in this thread boil down to situations where a parent cannot reasonably expect to control their child's behavior in a manner appropriate to the locale. One yell during a movie, or during speeches at a wedding, or during dinner at a quiet ambiance restaurant is truly disruptive. Children running against the grain on a jogging path, or underfoot at a cocktail party is unsafe. Etc.

Different situations and locations require a different amount of attention being paid to the child's behavior because different levels of behavior are expected of the people in the situation and location. And some situations would require such a detailed, consistent overly aware level of attention that its no longer really feasible to expect of any human being - parents are not superheros, they have moments of weakness, they are going to have a kid yell out, they are going to loose their grip on a squirming kid, etc.

And that's the point. There are places where that single yell or moment of running free are not ok, not once. So to bring your kid into that situation knowing you cannot reasonably be expected to ensure the proper level of behavior from them (because kids are kids and parents are mere humans) is not really acceptable behavior.

menley

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #113 on: September 18, 2013, 05:59:44 PM »
I am very glad to see some of these opinions right now  :)

DH has some friends who keep inviting us to late-night things. I stay home with the kids, DH goes. Our go-to sitters are usually family members. I don't want to deal with picking up sleeping children from someone else's home at 11 PM. In the past, I have had family members dump my wine down the sink when they had access to my home(family's religion forbids alcohol, and other things DH and I have and use often, also some family members have a more stringent view on certain "rules" than the rest of the religion officially has) so I prefer not to give unlimited access to my home and possessions to any of them.

DH is sad I don't go to these late-night events. He says that Friends say we can bring the kids. I ask, "Will there be other children?" "Well no." "Will there be alcohol?" "Well yes." "Will there be adults I don't know, inebriated and around my children?" About that time he catches on and there's a bit of frustration because he just wants to go OUT.
 
I'm fine with going out. It just has to be early enough that we can pick up the kids from the sitters' home before they fall asleep...otherwise we are up all night getting them back to sleep, after they wake on the ride home. It sucks, but it's what we signed up for in having children, and I certainly didn't create them all by myself.

Not to sidetrack things entirely, but I really encourage you to find non-family sitters who can stay at your home while you are out. I know in some (many!) cases that's easier said than done, but it makes my heart hurt a little to think of you always staying home from these events. I do think you're right in not bringing the kids to these situations, but staying home yourself is not the only solution!

nayberry

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #114 on: September 18, 2013, 06:02:17 PM »
many years ago, when the south park movie came out, yes the one with the uncle song!(don't google it from work or around children or if easily offended by swearing), i went with the then bf to see it,  it had been out a few days and it was a quiet showing.

then a 10-11 year old girl and her grandma came in and sat a few rows ahead of us.....  grannie took out her hearing aids and started knitting, whilst the girl was happily watching the movie, i was shocked by some of the songs and things said (but its south park, i expected to be  shocked),

if i'd been older (was 19 ish) i would have probably asked grannie if she knew how bad the swearing would get, but as you couldn't get into the film under 18 unless accompanied by an adult i felt it wasn't my place.

Judah

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #115 on: September 18, 2013, 06:03:17 PM »
I do [think this is the type of situation we've been discussing]. Because I think all the situations in this thread boil down to situations where a parent cannot reasonably expect to control their child's behavior in a manner appropriate to the locale. One yell during a movie, or during speeches at a wedding, or during dinner at a quiet ambiance restaurant is truly disruptive. Children running against the grain on a jogging path, or underfoot at a cocktail party is unsafe. Etc.

Different situations and locations require a different amount of attention being paid to the child's behavior because different levels of behavior are expected of the people in the situation and location. And some situations would require such a detailed, consistent overly aware level of attention that its no longer really feasible to expect of any human being - parents are not superheros, they have moments of weakness, they are going to have a kid yell out, they are going to loose their grip on a squirming kid, etc.

And that's the point. There are places where that single yell or moment of running free are not ok, not once. So to bring your kid into that situation knowing you cannot reasonably be expected to ensure the proper level of behavior from them (because kids are kids and parents are mere humans) is not really acceptable behavior.

You are assuming that no parent can adequately predict their child's behavior and I'm saying that that's not true. Sure there are lots of parents who can't or don't. But I never took my kids anywhere, not even Denny's, before I was positive they could handle it. That meant one of my kids got to go to nicer places much sooner than the other one because he could be relied on and she couldn't. But if my kid was somewhere, it was because I was certain they were ready.  That meant that by the time DS was five we could enjoy a meal at the fanciest of restaurants. DD didn't get the same privilege until much later, but when we finally did take her, she behaved perfectly.
Ask for what you want. Let's be clear on this one:
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Hmmmmm

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #116 on: September 18, 2013, 06:23:03 PM »
But just because it isn't rude doesn't mean that I don't have the right to be annoyed by it or prefer your child not be present.

I absolutely defend your right to be annoyed! But your annoyance at a child's presence in a restaurant doesn't mean the child shouldn't be there. I'm annoyed at all sorts of things that people do, that doesn't mean they are actually doing anything wrong.

And, ftr, I completely understand the annoyance of walking into a nice restaurant, expecting a quiet, child-free evening and spotting a child two tables over.  Maybe you saved for this night for weeks, and hired a babysitter for your own kids, and bought a new dress, and actually put some effort into your hair for a change (thinking of myself here), and you just wanted a nice evening with your spouse. And there's the a kid. That doesn't mean the child shouldn't be there.

I'm not getting your point. The only people who can determine if the child should be there is restaurant management or the parents. I've stated the parents aren't rude and they have the right to bring their child. But I can still have my opinion that the child should not be there. I don't believe any child should have to sit through a 2 hour dinner at Chez Fancy at 8:30 at night. So yes, I will see the parents and will wonder why they felt the need to bring their 6 yr old out with them.

Just like I'll wonder why the driver bought a car that is seemingly incapable of driving over a speed bump at 10mph.

Judah

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #117 on: September 18, 2013, 06:27:47 PM »
But just because it isn't rude doesn't mean that I don't have the right to be annoyed by it or prefer your child not be present.

I absolutely defend your right to be annoyed! But your annoyance at a child's presence in a restaurant doesn't mean the child shouldn't be there. I'm annoyed at all sorts of things that people do, that doesn't mean they are actually doing anything wrong.

And, ftr, I completely understand the annoyance of walking into a nice restaurant, expecting a quiet, child-free evening and spotting a child two tables over.  Maybe you saved for this night for weeks, and hired a babysitter for your own kids, and bought a new dress, and actually put some effort into your hair for a change (thinking of myself here), and you just wanted a nice evening with your spouse. And there's the a kid. That doesn't mean the child shouldn't be there.

I'm not getting your point. The only people who can determine if the child should be there is restaurant management or the parents. I've stated the parents aren't rude and they have the right to bring their child. But I can still have my opinion that the child should not be there. I don't believe any child should have to sit through a 2 hour dinner at Chez Fancy at 8:30 at night. So yes, I will see the parents and will wonder why they felt the need to bring their 6 yr old out with them.

Just like I'll wonder why the driver bought a car that is seemingly incapable of driving over a speed bump at 10mph.

I'm agreeing with you.
Ask for what you want. Let's be clear on this one:
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EllenS

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #118 on: September 18, 2013, 06:32:15 PM »
 ;D

I guess we are so unused to consensus around here, we can't believe folks are agreeing with us!

AnnaJ

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #119 on: September 18, 2013, 06:33:23 PM »
Gish was never taken to museums as a kid. I mean never Ė not with his family, not on school trips, not ever. Imagine my surprise when we went to a museum for my birthday and he climbed on the furniture, introduced himself to everyone we passed, and loudly insisted that Degas was ugly! LOL, obviously, no, that didnít happen. Iíve just never understood the statement that you have to take kids everywhere for them to learn how to behave there. There are lots of places we didnít go as kids, that doesnít mean that I now act like a hooligan in airports (for example) just because I was never in one until I was a teenager.

Yes, this.  When I was a kid, restaurant visits were rare, no museums in my small town, and I didn't fly until I was a teenager - yet I knew how to behave when we did go to a restaurant, the first time I went to a museum, and the first time I flew (OK, I probably grinned when we took off).  It is perfectly possible to learn how to behave in a situation without actually being in that situation...could be why people have wedding rehearsals and other practice sessions.