Author Topic: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?  (Read 7462 times)

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Sharnita

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #90 on: September 18, 2013, 04:52:36 PM »
The thing is, a doctor or nurse could want a night out where they don't have to think about work. That doesn't mean they can object to the sight of a wheelchair.

lowspark

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #91 on: September 18, 2013, 04:58:45 PM »
For me, the gist of it is whether it's appropriate to have a child in a certain setting. I don't really see how it's appropriate to bring a 3 year old into a fine dining establishment that caters to adults with $$$ dinners and drinks, low lighting, live music, and the like. It's just not where a child belongs.

Now, again, if the child actually does sit and behave and is not any more noticeable than any other patron, it's not a huge deal to me. But it's still not apropriate for the child to be there.

And again, to me, insisiting on bringing a child to a place where they don't belong is a disservice both to the other people who are there and to the child. And I think this regardless of the child's behavior.

esposita

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #92 on: September 18, 2013, 05:02:53 PM »
For me, the gist of it is whether it's appropriate to have a child in a certain setting. I don't really see how it's appropriate to bring a 3 year old into a fine dining establishment that caters to adults with $$$ dinners and drinks, low lighting, live music, and the like. It's just not where a child belongs.

Now, again, if the child actually does sit and behave and is not any more noticeable than any other patron, it's not a huge deal to me. But it's still not apropriate for the child to be there.

And again, to me, insisiting on bringing a child to a place where they don't belong is a disservice both to the other people who are there and to the child. And I think this regardless of the child's behavior.

On what basis? The presence of money, drinks, low lighting, music...even the time for a child who is accustomed to staying up late-ish...none of that is inherently inappropriate for a child, so on what basis is their presence inappropriate?

EllenS

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #93 on: September 18, 2013, 05:04:12 PM »
Oh, I agree that there are plenty of places it would be ridiculous to take a child. Taking a very small child to Chez Fancy is, in my opinion, silly and wasteful.

I just don't necessarily agree it is rude or offensive.  There are plenty of people whose looks make me uncomfortable, or make me think of things I don't want to think about, or whose presence I find disappointing (I'm thinking of going to a supposedly "typical,"  local restaurant in a foreign country, expecting to have an immersive cultural experience - and finding it full of tourists from my own country!)

To say that someone's existence is rude because of something happening inside one's own head - completely separate from the "offender's" behavior - is a logical leap I just cannot make.

White Lotus

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #94 on: September 18, 2013, 05:04:36 PM »
I wasn't getting this because my natal culture is very kid-friendly and while there are many dressy celebrations and events, often in restaurants, kids are naturally included, provided for and dealt with, usually as a group, and vanish bedward at reasonable times. They ARE well-behaved or ELSE. (We dont know what the "else" is -- they dont push it, and neither did we.)  Sure, the Prof and I go out on our own, but well-behaved kids around at restaurants, ceremonies or art events just don't push my buttons.
But then I got to thinking...I really don't like seeing little boys past diaper age, who can be trusted to go it alone reliably in terms of aim and zippers, in the women's restrooms or lockers, and I prefer 18+ locker rooms.  Again, this is an area in which my natal culture is kid-friendly and not prudish about nudity, even mixed nudity, in appropriate circumstances, but, at least in the US, the atmosphere changes.
OK, I won't take the kids to Chez Fancy any more, no matter how well-behaved they are.  I will take them to Chez Ethnic, where the clan gathers for fancy occasions, instead. 
In my mind, Chez Fancy is a local high end French place that always has something fantastic and veg on the menu, and for which we Dress Up and drink good wine, like in a movie.  There are rarely children there, come to think of it, and if so, only at the start of the dinner service.  I'll make the reservation for eight.

blahblahblah

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #95 on: September 18, 2013, 05:04:52 PM »
I've started running a popular jogging track loop in Central Park and you'll occasionally see kids there. The presence of children is fine (although strollers are expressly forbidden, which some parents ignore, much to my irritation), but sometimes you'll see these kids darting back and forth across the track and generally getting underfoot, with runners having to dodge and weave their way around them. Sigh.

Underfoot children are hardly the only annoyance... you also get people stopping in the middle of the track to take pictures, or people running in the "wrong" direction, etc. But I gotta say that children are the hardest and therefore the most irritating to avoid because they're more prone to sudden movements, lol.

poundcake

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #96 on: September 18, 2013, 05:07:05 PM »
For me, the gist of it is whether it's appropriate to have a child in a certain setting. I don't really see how it's appropriate to bring a 3 year old into a fine dining establishment that caters to adults with $$$ dinners and drinks, low lighting, live music, and the like. It's just not where a child belongs.

Now, again, if the child actually does sit and behave and is not any more noticeable than any other patron, it's not a huge deal to me. But it's still not apropriate for the child to be there.

And again, to me, insisiting on bringing a child to a place where they don't belong is a disservice both to the other people who are there and to the child. And I think this regardless of the child's behavior.

On what basis? The presence of money, drinks, low lighting, music...even the time for a child who is accustomed to staying up late-ish...none of that is inherently inappropriate for a child, so on what basis is their presence inappropriate?

It's sort of like how a building's architecture will give clues to its function, or how there are certain things implied (age limit, dress code) by certain invitations. You should not have to say, "I'm sorry, this is a museum. Even though it has large floors and good lighting, no one is currently using it, and you are properly equipped, you may not roller skate in here."

CluelessBride

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #97 on: September 18, 2013, 05:07:41 PM »
A restaurant is welcome to have a no-kids policy.

If the restaurant does not have a no-kids policy, it is not rude for me to take my children there.    Whoever my dining companions are, if they are dressed appropriately and behave appropriately, then I will not take responsibility for your discomfort with them.

Regarding the bolded, I don't think its rude to take children to a restaurant. However, if the kids do end up disturbing people (squealing, approaching tables to start conversations, kicking chairs, staring at patrons, etc) then I think you were rude to have brought them. Yes, even if its only a quick shriek and you (general) remove the child immediately. So I do think by bringing kids to certain places you are risking rudeness. Only you (general) know your kids well enough to know how much of a risk (if any) you are taking.

I also think that there is a difference between being "not rude" and being appropriate. There are places where I think it might not be rude to have a child (because they aren't disallowed), but that I don't think it is appropriate for them to be either. But that comes down more to personal standards/parenting choices. For example, I'm allowed to think it's inappropriate for kids to be at restaurants after 8pm*, but that doesn't mean it is rude for kids to be at restaurants after 8pm. But I'm still welcome to hold my own opinion and hold myself/my kids to that standard. And even to dislike the practice.

Its sort of like flip-flops. If a restaurant allows nice flip-flops, its not rude to wear them. But not everyone is going to think they are appropriate. And there is nothing wrong with not liking that people wear flip-flops to the restaurant (so long as you don't launch into a loud angry rant at the flip-flop wearers or something).



*I don't actually think this - my personal opinions on where kids are/aren't appropriate is far more nuanced than makes sense to discuss.


esposita

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #98 on: September 18, 2013, 05:09:02 PM »
For me, the gist of it is whether it's appropriate to have a child in a certain setting. I don't really see how it's appropriate to bring a 3 year old into a fine dining establishment that caters to adults with $$$ dinners and drinks, low lighting, live music, and the like. It's just not where a child belongs.

Now, again, if the child actually does sit and behave and is not any more noticeable than any other patron, it's not a huge deal to me. But it's still not apropriate for the child to be there.

And again, to me, insisiting on bringing a child to a place where they don't belong is a disservice both to the other people who are there and to the child. And I think this regardless of the child's behavior.

On what basis? The presence of money, drinks, low lighting, music...even the time for a child who is accustomed to staying up late-ish...none of that is inherently inappropriate for a child, so on what basis is their presence inappropriate?

It's sort of like how a building's architecture will give clues to its function, or how there are certain things implied (age limit, dress code) by certain invitations. You should not have to say, "I'm sorry, this is a museum. Even though it has large floors and good lighting, no one is currently using it, and you are properly equipped, you may not roller skate in here."

My issue with this is that roller-skating is an action, not a being.

EllenS

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #99 on: September 18, 2013, 05:15:02 PM »
I also think that there is a difference between being "not rude" and being appropriate. There are places where I think it might not be rude to have a child (because they aren't disallowed), but that I don't think it is appropriate for them to be either. But that comes down more to personal standards/parenting choices. For example, I'm allowed to think it's inappropriate for kids to be at restaurants after 8pm*, but that doesn't mean it is rude for kids to be at restaurants after 8pm. But I'm still welcome to hold my own opinion and hold myself/my kids to that standard. And even to dislike the practice.

Its sort of like flip-flops. If a restaurant allows nice flip-flops, its not rude to wear them. But not everyone is going to think they are appropriate. And there is nothing wrong with not liking that people wear flip-flops to the restaurant (so long as you don't launch into a loud angry rant at the flip-flop wearers or something).

Very well put.

Hmmmmm

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #100 on: September 18, 2013, 05:25:53 PM »
Oh, I agree that there are plenty of places it would be ridiculous to take a child. Taking a very small child to Chez Fancy is, in my opinion, silly and wasteful.

I just don't necessarily agree it is rude or offensive.  There are plenty of people whose looks make me uncomfortable, or make me think of things I don't want to think about, or whose presence I find disappointing (I'm thinking of going to a supposedly "typical,"  local restaurant in a foreign country, expecting to have an immersive cultural experience - and finding it full of tourists from my own country!)

To say that someone's existence is rude because of something happening inside one's own head - completely separate from the "offender's" behavior - is a logical leap I just cannot make.

I don't think anyone has said that taking young children to a place that allows kids is rude. In my example of why I don't like it I clearly stated the parent's aren't rude.

But just because it isn't rude doesn't mean that I don't have the right to be annoyed by it or prefer your child not be present.  The person who comes to a complete stop for a speed bump isn't being rude but they are annoying the dickens out of me if I'm following behind them in a parking lot with 10 of them.

mich3554

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #101 on: September 18, 2013, 05:26:18 PM »
I agree. If the establishment allows it, then I get to decide whether or not my child belongs there.

If someone doesn't like his presence, then I don't think they belong there.


Several years ago, I was at a cocktail party that was sponsored by the organization of whose meeting I was attending.  The cocktail party was in the lobby of the hotel, which overlooked the lower level.  The lower level was the main desk where you checked in, the upper level was cordoned off for the party.

For some ungodly reason, meeting attendants brought some of their children to this party.  In the 2 hours, I watched waiters with heavy trays trip over free roaming kids, innumerable meltdowns and a couple of live saving operations where someone had to go rescue a kid from climbing the escalator rail....to which there was a good 30' drop.

Could the child be in the lobby of the hotel?  Undoubtedly.  But the lobby was having an event that was not appropriate for children at all.  After the third or 4th kid was rescued from the escalator rail (my friend rescued the first), we finally left.  The party was ruined for many.

Also, more and more children are showing up at professional meetings.  Last meeting I went to, it cost me over $800 to register for this and it includes some perks.....like use of the internet cafe, free coffee and breakfast in the morning, free soft drinks and cookies in the afternoon.  However, hoards of kids have taken over the internet cafe and forget about getting a donut or cookie in the afternoon.  Closest description to that is a herd of starving locusts.

There is absolutely NO reason for a child to be at a professional meeting.  NONE. 


EllenS

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #102 on: September 18, 2013, 05:28:15 PM »
I agree. If the establishment allows it, then I get to decide whether or not my child belongs there.

If someone doesn't like his presence, then I don't think they belong there.


Several years ago, I was at a cocktail party that was sponsored by the organization of whose meeting I was attending.  The cocktail party was in the lobby of the hotel, which overlooked the lower level.  The lower level was the main desk where you checked in, the upper level was cordoned off for the party.

For some ungodly reason, meeting attendants brought some of their children to this party.  In the 2 hours, I watched waiters with heavy trays trip over free roaming kids, innumerable meltdowns and a couple of live saving operations where someone had to go rescue a kid from climbing the escalator rail....to which there was a good 30' drop.

Could the child be in the lobby of the hotel?  Undoubtedly.  But the lobby was having an event that was not appropriate for children at all.  After the third or 4th kid was rescued from the escalator rail (my friend rescued the first), we finally left.  The party was ruined for many.

Also, more and more children are showing up at professional meetings.  Last meeting I went to, it cost me over $800 to register for this and it includes some perks.....like use of the internet cafe, free coffee and breakfast in the morning, free soft drinks and cookies in the afternoon.  However, hoards of kids have taken over the internet cafe and forget about getting a donut or cookie in the afternoon.  Closest description to that is a herd of starving locusts.

There is absolutely NO reason for a child to be at a professional meeting.  NONE. 

No, of course not.  And those children were misbehaving, and their parents were very rude to not be supervising them.

EllenS

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #103 on: September 18, 2013, 05:29:27 PM »
But just because it isn't rude doesn't mean that I don't have the right to be annoyed by it or prefer your child not be present.  The person who comes to a complete stop for a speed bump isn't being rude but they are annoying the dickens out of me if I'm following behind them in a parking lot with 10 of them.

I agree completely with this.  :)

*inviteseller

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #104 on: September 18, 2013, 05:32:36 PM »
I am the mom of 2 and many times I would rather live with penguins!  My kids were never a problem in public..my older DD had one public meltdown and it was outside of a grocery store when she was almost 2 and I admit it was my fault.  But, there are places I don't take them because they are not right for kids.  I have never been of the belief that just because I gave birth, that my kids and I were special and could just take them to adult oriented events.  Kids do change the atmosphere of adult dinners, gatherings, ect.  I have seen women come into a sports bar/restaurant and complain because people in the bar were gathered to watch a sports thing on the TV's...the drinking, the smoking, the language was too much for their kids and they were vocal of their displeasure.  Well, it is 8 pm, you are in a well known sports bar/restaurant that, in all their ads show an atmosphere of adult fun, and the hometown team is playing.  Maybe you should have noticed the atmosphere when you and your kids walked in and made another choice (there are 8 places in the area..a few are geared towards families) instead of complaining, giving dirty looks and generally expecting us to care that you are letting your kids be exposed to an atmosphere you don't approve of.  I rarely get time away from my kids simply because I am a single mom and do spend my free time with them, but anymore when I do get a night away, my friends or sister and I go to the casino because there is no one under 21 allowed on the premises.  They have some wonderful restaurants, they have live bands..it is truly a no kid zone and I love it but there is now a push by some mom's groups to put in a day care so they can go and take their kids.  Well, the state law says it won't happen, but they sure are vocal..just find a babysitter ladies!!!!!