Author Topic: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?  (Read 10062 times)

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SlitherHiss

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2013, 01:39:30 PM »
    There are definitely places where kids do not belong:

    • Any place with age requirements (e.g. bars, nightclubs, rated R or M movies, nude beach, etc)
    • Any place with height requirements (e.g. the sooper-dooper awesome rollercoaster that has a minimum height of 48")
    • The opposite gender bathroom or change room.  If you have to go into the bathroom or change room with your kids, you need to use the family rest room or the family change room (YMMV, this is my opinion)
    • Any place that the kid is not able to handle the mental or physical requirements necessary (e.g. backcountry backpacking, on a boat if they can't swim, at a gala art opening if they don't have an appreciation of art)
    • Any place where "kids being kids" will prevent others around them from fully participating in/appreciating the place/event (e.g. an evening at the opera)
    • Any place where an invitation is required, and they have not been invited (e.g. weddings, cocktail parties)
    [/list]

    I just don't feel that the entire world needs to be "kid friendly" and I think that it is fine that there are places where kids can't or shouldn't go. 

    I guess that I am a grump too!

    The bolded would apply to adults too, though. We really need to separate the behavior from the mere presence of a minor. Adult who can't swim don't belong a boat either. Uninvited adults don't belong at a wedding.  Adults that don't meet the height requirement don't belong on a ride.

    Well, yes, of course. But we're talking specifically about children here.

    metallicafan

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    Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
    « Reply #31 on: September 18, 2013, 01:43:14 PM »
    In fact, the very fact that I have kids makes me that much more annoyed when I'm around kids in a situation where they don't belong. Back to the restaurant example, when my kids were young and I got a brief respite from them and was able to go out for a nice adult dinner, the last thing I wanted to see was other kids behaving badly!

    This is exactly the way I feel.  Couldn't have said it better myself.

    WillyNilly

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    Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
    « Reply #32 on: September 18, 2013, 01:44:00 PM »

    There is a lot of debate and some uproar over a few recent restaurants that have opened and declared themselves to be 18 (or 21) and up, only.  And yet no one is freaking out about how you can't go to Legoland WITHOUT a kid in tow.  

    The idea that some places are more well-suited to adults, no children, is quite logical.

    Wait...you can't?

    There are lots of places adults aren't allowed without kids. In NYC adults cannot legally go into playgrounds without children. (Often if its late at night, so long as they aren't making noise/drinking/otherwise doing something "wrong" the law is not enforced, but there are signs at every playground I've seen saying adults must be accompanying a minor under the age of 16 to be in the playground.)

    Sharnita

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    Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
    « Reply #33 on: September 18, 2013, 01:44:34 PM »
    I don't think uninvited guests of any age should be brought along to a wedding. And I am put off byeople yelling, calling out, interjecting, etc. during wedding speeches myself - the thing is that  is usually adults doing it.

    turnip

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    Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
    « Reply #34 on: September 18, 2013, 01:45:16 PM »
    You have very unusual FB friends.  I know no one who will defend their child screaming in an art museum, or at a wedding or funeral.  You can see the replies here are unanimous.

    I think often it comes down to the definition of "screaming".

    I went to a wedding recently, that was primarily adults (children who were close family of the couple were invited) and quite formal. Well a couple I'm friends with brought their toddler (the bride agreed ahead of time this was ok... although I believe she did so under duress as I was there when it happened). I sat at the same table as the couple with the toddler.

    During the speeches part of the reception the room was almost totally silent, save for an odd murmur here and there, as we all listened. And twice the toddler let out a very loud yelp of sorts. It wasn't a full on tantrum by any means, it was only a few seconds long. But it happened twice. And it was distracting and IMO disrespectful as the toddler had not been invited, was significantly younger then any of the children who were invited (7 years was the next youngest guest, an officially invited), and they were very touching speeches that deserved respect and attention, not distraction.

    I didn't specifically bring it up to the parents so they didn't defend it specifically, but they also didn't after the first one immediately remove themselves from the room thus preventing the second interruption... so to me their actions as parents absolutely defended the noise.

    You accurately predict that I wouldn't consider a  toddler yelping twice 'screaming'.     However this toddler was invited to the wedding - whatever speculation you may have about the bride being under duress - and so doesn't really apply to the OP's situation.

    Children don't belong where they haven't been invited.  They don't belong in places where the law requires that everyone be above a certain age.  I don't know of any other etiquette rules that forbid them from anywhere else in the public sphere - as is occasionally pointed out, if you never take your children to a restaurant or a museum, they will never learn to behave in a restaurant or museum.

    Judah

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    Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
    « Reply #35 on: September 18, 2013, 01:47:44 PM »
      There are definitely places where kids do not belong:

      • Any place with age requirements (e.g. bars, nightclubs, rated R or M movies, nude beach, etc)
      • Any place with height requirements (e.g. the sooper-dooper awesome rollercoaster that has a minimum height of 48")
      • The opposite gender bathroom or change room.  If you have to go into the bathroom or change room with your kids, you need to use the family rest room or the family change room (YMMV, this is my opinion)
      • Any place that the kid is not able to handle the mental or physical requirements necessary (e.g. backcountry backpacking, on a boat if they can't swim, at a gala art opening if they don't have an appreciation of art)
      • Any place where "kids being kids" will prevent others around them from fully participating in/appreciating the place/event (e.g. an evening at the opera)
      • Any place where an invitation is required, and they have not been invited (e.g. weddings, cocktail parties)
      [/list]

      I just don't feel that the entire world needs to be "kid friendly" and I think that it is fine that there are places where kids can't or shouldn't go. 

      I guess that I am a grump too!

      The bolded would apply to adults too, though. We really need to separate the behavior from the mere presence of a minor. Adult who can't swim don't belong a boat either. Uninvited adults don't belong at a wedding.  Adults that don't meet the height requirement don't belong on a ride.

      Well, yes, of course. But we're talking specifically about children here.

      My point is that these aren't places kids don't belong; they are places people who don't meet the requirement don't belong. If a child can meet the requirements, there's no reason for them not to be there.
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      SlitherHiss

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      Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
      « Reply #36 on: September 18, 2013, 01:49:50 PM »
        There are definitely places where kids do not belong:

        • Any place with age requirements (e.g. bars, nightclubs, rated R or M movies, nude beach, etc)
        • Any place with height requirements (e.g. the sooper-dooper awesome rollercoaster that has a minimum height of 48")
        • The opposite gender bathroom or change room.  If you have to go into the bathroom or change room with your kids, you need to use the family rest room or the family change room (YMMV, this is my opinion)
        • Any place that the kid is not able to handle the mental or physical requirements necessary (e.g. backcountry backpacking, on a boat if they can't swim, at a gala art opening if they don't have an appreciation of art)
        • Any place where "kids being kids" will prevent others around them from fully participating in/appreciating the place/event (e.g. an evening at the opera)
        • Any place where an invitation is required, and they have not been invited (e.g. weddings, cocktail parties)
        [/list]

        I just don't feel that the entire world needs to be "kid friendly" and I think that it is fine that there are places where kids can't or shouldn't go. 

        I guess that I am a grump too!

        The bolded would apply to adults too, though. We really need to separate the behavior from the mere presence of a minor. Adult who can't swim don't belong a boat either. Uninvited adults don't belong at a wedding.  Adults that don't meet the height requirement don't belong on a ride.

        Well, yes, of course. But we're talking specifically about children here.

        My point is that these aren't places kids don't belong; they are places people who don't meet the requirement don't belong. If a child can meet the requirements, there's no reason for them not to be there.

        Yes...no one was implying otherwise.

        Goosey

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        Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
        « Reply #37 on: September 18, 2013, 01:54:28 PM »
        (General) You can teach a kid how to behave at a restaurant at home at the dinner table or at child-friendly restaurants. There's no reason to take them to Le Fancy Restaurant - which has a "grown up" atmosphere and most of the time, no high chairs. Even if the restaurant technically allows children, I think it's rude to the other patrons, who go there for a specific atmosphere and then have to sit there and listen to children for the duration of their dinner. As another poster said, many adults go to these places to have a place away from kids.

        Older teenagers, sure. I remember it being a "wow, I'm grown up" moment when I was 15 and went to my first grown up restaurant.
         

        WillyNilly

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        Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
        « Reply #38 on: September 18, 2013, 02:02:13 PM »
        You have very unusual FB friends.  I know no one who will defend their child screaming in an art museum, or at a wedding or funeral.  You can see the replies here are unanimous.

        I think often it comes down to the definition of "screaming".

        I went to a wedding recently, that was primarily adults (children who were close family of the couple were invited) and quite formal. Well a couple I'm friends with brought their toddler (the bride agreed ahead of time this was ok... although I believe she did so under duress as I was there when it happened). I sat at the same table as the couple with the toddler.

        During the speeches part of the reception the room was almost totally silent, save for an odd murmur here and there, as we all listened. And twice the toddler let out a very loud yelp of sorts. It wasn't a full on tantrum by any means, it was only a few seconds long. But it happened twice. And it was distracting and IMO disrespectful as the toddler had not been invited, was significantly younger then any of the children who were invited (7 years was the next youngest guest, an officially invited), and they were very touching speeches that deserved respect and attention, not distraction.

        I didn't specifically bring it up to the parents so they didn't defend it specifically, but they also didn't after the first one immediately remove themselves from the room thus preventing the second interruption... so to me their actions as parents absolutely defended the noise.

        You accurately predict that I wouldn't consider a  toddler yelping twice 'screaming'.     However this toddler was invited to the wedding - whatever speculation you may have about the bride being under duress - and so doesn't really apply to the OP's situation.

        Children don't belong where they haven't been invited.  They don't belong in places where the law requires that everyone be above a certain age.  I don't know of any other etiquette rules that forbid them from anywhere else in the public sphere - as is occasionally pointed out, if you never take your children to a restaurant or a museum, they will never learn to behave in a restaurant or museum.

        No the child absolutely was not invited. The child was agreed to after the fact. But the child was never invited, which would imply the hosts/B&G were the first to mention the child. The child's parents announced they were bringing the child, after RSVP's were in (the parents only RSVP'ed for themselves), and the bride did not stop them, but the child was not invited.

        And I personally did consider the noise on par with a scream - it was loud, sudden, uncomfortable sounding, and inappropriate. Hence my saying there is some question to the definition of "screaming" - ok it wasn't a scream but it was a yell. Are yelling children acceptable but screaming kids not? Where exactly is that line drawn?

        I am by no means saying children don't belong at museums, or restaurants or even weddings (that same toddler was invited specifically by name to my wedding in fact). But just because some museums, or some times at museums are appropriate for kids, does not mean all museums, at all times are appropriate (or any other venue). Sitting in the bar area of Applebees for lunch is fine for a family, sitting in the bar area of Applebees after 11pm when its essentially become a singles bar is not appropriate for those with youngsters - same place but different circumstances. And that holds true for lots of places and events.
        « Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 02:04:03 PM by WillyNilly »

        turnip

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        Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
        « Reply #39 on: September 18, 2013, 02:02:27 PM »
        (General) You can teach a kid how to behave at a restaurant at home at the dinner table or at child-friendly restaurants. There's no reason to take them to Le Fancy Restaurant - which has a "grown up" atmosphere and most of the time, no high chairs. Even if the restaurant technically allows children, I think it's rude to the other patrons, who go there for a specific atmosphere and then have to sit there and listen to children for the duration of their dinner. As another poster said, many adults go to these places to have a place away from kids.

        Older teenagers, sure. I remember it being a "wow, I'm grown up" moment when I was 15 and went to my first grown up restaurant.

        Yep - we disagree.  I don't think it is rude to take a child to a nice restaurant.   It would be interesting to know if any etiquette mavens have an opinion on the issue.  If a child talking politely is disturbing to other restaurant goers - well, that's unfortunate for them but alas they cannot expect to go out in public and completely avoid a specific group of people. 

        shhh its me

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        Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
        « Reply #40 on: September 18, 2013, 02:05:39 PM »
         I would add 2 caveats to your reasonable list

        It depends whose wedding or funeral.   It's not reasonable as a guest to be annoyed at the bride or grooms children, well maybe be annoyed but its not reasonable to expect the HC would not included them.






         

        Goosey

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        Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
        « Reply #41 on: September 18, 2013, 02:07:04 PM »
        (General) You can teach a kid how to behave at a restaurant at home at the dinner table or at child-friendly restaurants. There's no reason to take them to Le Fancy Restaurant - which has a "grown up" atmosphere and most of the time, no high chairs. Even if the restaurant technically allows children, I think it's rude to the other patrons, who go there for a specific atmosphere and then have to sit there and listen to children for the duration of their dinner. As another poster said, many adults go to these places to have a place away from kids.

        Older teenagers, sure. I remember it being a "wow, I'm grown up" moment when I was 15 and went to my first grown up restaurant.

        Yep - we disagree.  I don't think it is rude to take a child to a nice restaurant.   It would be interesting to know if any etiquette mavens have an opinion on the issue.  If a child talking politely is disturbing to other restaurant goers - well, that's unfortunate for them but alas they cannot expect to go out in public and completely avoid a specific group of people.

        I'm not asking nor would I expect children not to be out in public. But if it's later in the evening and I'm at a fancy restaurant and someone brings their kid - it takes the atmosphere down quite a few levels. It went from grown up fancy time to child-friendly restaurant time.
        « Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 02:09:00 PM by Goosey »

        SlitherHiss

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        Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
        « Reply #42 on: September 18, 2013, 02:07:25 PM »
        (General) You can teach a kid how to behave at a restaurant at home at the dinner table or at child-friendly restaurants. There's no reason to take them to Le Fancy Restaurant - which has a "grown up" atmosphere and most of the time, no high chairs. Even if the restaurant technically allows children, I think it's rude to the other patrons, who go there for a specific atmosphere and then have to sit there and listen to children for the duration of their dinner. As another poster said, many adults go to these places to have a place away from kids.

        Older teenagers, sure. I remember it being a "wow, I'm grown up" moment when I was 15 and went to my first grown up restaurant.

        Yep - we disagree.  I don't think it is rude to take a child to a nice restaurant.   It would be interesting to know if any etiquette mavens have an opinion on the issue.  If a child talking politely is disturbing to other restaurant goers - well, that's unfortunate for them but alas they cannot expect to go out in public and completely avoid a specific group of people.

        I don't know that it's always rude to take a kid to Chez Fancy, but I'd consider it rude if you (general) were using Chez Fancy as a "proving ground" for Jr's restaurant manners. I, too, remember it being a Big Deal to go to my first "grown up" restaurant, and I was expected to demonstrate a higher level of manners and quiet than I would at a family-friendly place. I expect the same from my children.

        lellah

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        Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
        « Reply #43 on: September 18, 2013, 02:09:31 PM »
        (General) You can teach a kid how to behave at a restaurant at home at the dinner table or at child-friendly restaurants. There's no reason to take them to Le Fancy Restaurant - which has a "grown up" atmosphere and most of the time, no high chairs. Even if the restaurant technically allows children, I think it's rude to the other patrons, who go there for a specific atmosphere and then have to sit there and listen to children for the duration of their dinner. As another poster said, many adults go to these places to have a place away from kids.

        Older teenagers, sure. I remember it being a "wow, I'm grown up" moment when I was 15 and went to my first grown up restaurant.

        Yep - we disagree.  I don't think it is rude to take a child to a nice restaurant.   It would be interesting to know if any etiquette mavens have an opinion on the issue.  If a child talking politely is disturbing to other restaurant goers - well, that's unfortunate for them but alas they cannot expect to go out in public and completely avoid a specific group of people.

        I don't know that it's always rude to take a kid to Chez Fancy, but I'd consider it rude if you (general) were using Chez Fancy as a "proving ground" for Jr's restaurant manners. I, too, remember it being a Big Deal to go to my first "grown up" restaurant, and I was expected to demonstrate a higher level of manners and quiet than I would at a family-friendly place. I expect the same from my children.

        I was admittedly unclear in my initial definition of child.  I think a well-mannered eight-year-old at Chez Fancy is lovely.  A toddler who, despite cheerful and careful parenting, may be prone to outburst is gambling with other people's nice times.

        Piratelvr1121

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        Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
        « Reply #44 on: September 18, 2013, 02:12:23 PM »
        NOPE!! Not at all! I decided that Branson, MO USA was my personal idea of h&ll when I was on a trip there and had been tossing around the idea of getting a new tattoo done. It's midnight and I'm watching TV when an ad comes on for a local tattoo place, so I sit up and take notice til the end of the commercial when the announcer says "bring you whole family, and kids get free airbrush tattoo's while you wait"!  :o  ??? :(Really?!?  Yeah that's one place where kids definitely don't need to be..what if they bump the artists arm and they make a line across you? Depending on the size you can be there HOURS..  ::)

        No kidding. I was taken along on a tattoo errand with a couple the first year DH and I were married. He was doing something else, a chess tournament, and they offered to give me a ride to the shopping areas to do something more interesting.  Boy did I regret that. It ended up a day of listening to them bicker while their kid did this happy eardrum blasting shriek, topped off by being a hostage babysitter while they got inked. 

        I've been inked.  It took about an hour to get mine done, as it was not a big one, but I sure wouldn't expect a toddler to stay still for that long while unengaged.

        Anyway, that aside, I do think sometimes there are places kids shouldn't be brought even if they are angels.  My folks used to brag about how they could take me anywhere when I was a baby because I was so quiet and so good.   Like pool halls.  They'd just put me (in a seat) on a table next to the one they were playing on and just keep playing late into the night and other than babbling I wouldn't make a peep. 

        That always seemed a little strange to me!

        On the other hand, once I did take my kids to a super fancy restaurant that didn't even have kids menus or highchairs or booster seats (which to me would say "kids not welcome!") but in my defense, the neighbor who recommended the restaurant to me didn't tell me it was expensive or that it was not terribly kid friendly.  And I don't know but if I knew someone had kids (and she knew I did) I'd slip that in when recommending a place to eat, that I might want to find a sitter.
        Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars.  You have a right to be here. Be cheerful, strive to be happy. -Desiderata