Author Topic: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?  (Read 7276 times)

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RebeccainGA

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #60 on: September 18, 2013, 03:16:57 PM »
I see taking the (young) kids out the same way we do taking DP's service animal out (while he's not strictly *necessary* all the time, keeping him used to being in public is crucial to his training) - if the presence of kids (or the service animal) changes the nature of the experience for people, in a negative way, then it's not acceptable. If it adds something, or has no effect, then it's fine. We take the service animal to routine, just chatting about bloodwork doctors appointments - that's fine, and we get to give a little 'awww, look at the cute doggy' moment to people along the way, which we have been told numerous times is a wonderful treat. However, on the day long, fifteen invasive tests marathon we're doing tomorrow? He's staying home. He'd be miserable, I'd be miserable, and DP will be so exhausted by the end of the day it won't matter to her if he's along or not. Same for kids. Take them to the grocery store? Sure. Take them to the movies? Only if the movie is kid friendly and you're not interrupting meal/nap times and making the kid miserable.

Quiltin Nana

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #61 on: September 18, 2013, 03:18:02 PM »
We've had people bring young (younger than 6) children to a Zumba class.  They were supposed to sit on the sidelines and watch, but they kept crossing across the floor to talk to mommy or trying to participate.  Most of the kids that age aren't really able to follow the moves and just get in the way.  I've actually bumped into a child when making a sudden move change and almost knocked the child down.  I'm busy following the instructor and trying to get my footwork right and just can't see someone who is lower than elbow height.  And as someone who isn't the most coordinated, I'm usually that person who is going the wrong direction.  At least with an adult or teenager, I can usually see them before bumping into them.  The instructor encouraged the parents bringing kids, so I eventually quit going. 

ScubaGirl

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #62 on: September 18, 2013, 03:37:18 PM »
For me, as much as anything else (and others have made excellent points I totally agree with) its the unpredictability level of children.  Specifically very young children. Sure anyone of any age can act out at any time, but the odds of a young child acting out (being loud, whiny, kicking their chair leg which reverberates across the floor to other people at other tables, etc) is much greater then the odds of an adults doing so at a fancy restaurant later in the evening. And just having those odds upped, increases a particular level of tension.

If a person is sitting there enjoying their meal and doing nothing to draw attention to themselves and you still have a problem with their presence because they *might* do something, it's your issue.  I don't mean that in a snarky way, but I don't know how else to say it. At that point it's not about the kid doing anything wrong, it's about you. Unless an establishment bills themselves as an adult only place, I just don't see the issue.

Kids are, by their very nature, different from adults and thus your implied argument that it's the same as pre-judging another adult (I assume that's what you meant by "person) doesn't hold water.

The bolded also doesn't make much sense, because I've always held to the idea that just because something isn't prohibited, doesn't mean it's a good idea. Should we not be annoyed when parents fail to recognize clear contextual clues about what is and isn't kid-friendly? Do restaurants really have to say "No children after 7pm" or "No children, period" for you to know that a pricey steakhouse famed for romantic dates and imaginative cocktails is not a suitable place to bring your 8yo for a late Saturday dinner?

Agreed.  The parent may be prepared to wisk the child away the first moment he/she behaves inappropriate for the setting but the damage to the other diners has been done with that disturbance.


Judah

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #63 on: September 18, 2013, 03:39:51 PM »
Kids are, by their very nature, different from adults and thus your implied argument that it's the same as pre-judging another adult (I assume that's what you meant by "person) doesn't hold water.

I disagree, that for the purposes of dining out, a child that can meet the standard of adult behavior is different from an adult.

The bolded also doesn't make much sense, because I've always held to the idea that just because something isn't prohibited, doesn't mean it's a good idea. Should we not be annoyed when parents fail to recognize clear contextual clues about what is and isn't kid-friendly? Do restaurants really have to say "No children after 7pm" or "No children, period" for you to know that a pricey steakhouse famed for romantic dates and imaginative cocktails is not a suitable place to bring your 8yo for a late Saturday dinner?

It depends on the restaurant. Using your scenario, I wouldn't take a child, no. But many of the examples being given are not so clear cut.

A high end steak house, not billed as a romantic spot? Sure, my son loves steak.
An expensive restaurant that doesn't have kids menus? Sure, I've never understood the kid menu thing and my kids didn't use them much.
A bar? No, bars 21 and over only.
A pub? Sure, most pubs around here don't go adult only until after dinner. 
A museum? Without a doubt.
Backpacking? My kids have been backpacking since they were in elementary school and could outlast many adults. 
A rated R move? Well, I wouldn't, but I don't see a problem with it if the kid can handle it.
A nude beach? Not my thing, but there's a nudist resort in the next county over and, from what I hear, they're very family friendly. So, if that's the way you're raising your kids...

My point is not that there aren't places kids shouldn't be taken, there are, and I said so in my first post. My point is that the behaviors people seem to be objecting to are just that, behaviors. It's not the kid's presence, it's the behavior that matters. Not all kids are misbehaved and many kids can be counted on to behave well in the situation in which their parents put them.  And I don't understand the idea of objecting to the mere presence of a child. The example above of the 3-year-old going around to tables introducing herself is an example of a child that shouldn't be taken to *any* restaurant. Not because she's a child, but because her parents seem to be encouraging her intrusive behavior.  I wouldn't want that at a burger joint.
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Goosey

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #64 on: September 18, 2013, 03:41:49 PM »
But, I think that some of us ARE saying that it's not JUST the behaviors that matter to us.

auntmeegs

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #65 on: September 18, 2013, 03:43:44 PM »
For me, as much as anything else (and others have made excellent points I totally agree with) its the unpredictability level of children.  Specifically very young children. Sure anyone of any age can act out at any time, but the odds of a young child acting out (being loud, whiny, kicking their chair leg which reverberates across the floor to other people at other tables, etc) is much greater then the odds of an adults doing so at a fancy restaurant later in the evening. And just having those odds upped, increases a particular level of tension.

If a person is sitting there enjoying their meal and doing nothing to draw attention to themselves and you still have a problem with their presence because they *might* do something, it's your issue.  I don't mean that in a snarky way, but I don't know how else to say it. At that point it's not about the kid doing anything wrong, it's about you. Unless an establishment bills themselves as an adult only place, I just don't see the issue.

Kids are, by their very nature, different from adults and thus your implied argument that it's the same as pre-judging another adult (I assume that's what you meant by "person) doesn't hold water.

The bolded also doesn't make much sense, because I've always held to the idea that just because something isn't prohibited, doesn't mean it's a good idea. Should we not be annoyed when parents fail to recognize clear contextual clues about what is and isn't kid-friendly? Do restaurants really have to say "No children after 7pm" or "No children, period" for you to know that a pricey steakhouse famed for romantic dates and imaginative cocktails is not a suitable place to bring your 8yo for a late Saturday dinner?

Agreed.  The parent may be prepared to wisk the child away the first moment he/she behaves inappropriate for the setting but the damage to the other diners has been done with that disturbance.

Honestly I think that if one momentary disturbance is going to ruin someone's ENTIRE evening, that person is too fragile to be out in public and should be the one staying home. 

SlitherHiss

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #66 on: September 18, 2013, 03:44:55 PM »
But, I think that some of us ARE saying that it's not JUST the behaviors that matter to us.

Exactly.

Betelnut

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #67 on: September 18, 2013, 03:45:30 PM »
Judah:

Why don't kids belong in a museum?  I don't get that. 
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revenges." -- Feste, Twelfth Night by William Shakespeare.

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Judah

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #68 on: September 18, 2013, 03:45:37 PM »
But, I think that some of us ARE saying that it's not JUST the behaviors that matter to us.

And again, not in a snarky way, but that's your issue.  Just because you don't like see a child in certain places doesn't mean that child shouldn't be there.  I don't like seeing people dressed sloppily with their bra straps showing and flip-flops on their feet, but that's my issue to deal with.
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Judah

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #69 on: September 18, 2013, 03:46:35 PM »
Judah:

Why don't kids belong in a museum?  I don't get that.

Oh, quite the opposite. Kids should be taken to museums frequently.
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Goosey

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #70 on: September 18, 2013, 03:46:59 PM »
But, I think that some of us ARE saying that it's not JUST the behaviors that matter to us.

And again, not in a snarky way, but that's your issue.  Just because you don't like see a child in certain places doesn't mean that child shouldn't be there.  I don't like seeing people dressed sloppily with their bra straps showing and flip-flops on their feet, but that's my issue to deal with.

If they would dress that way in a fancy restaurant, they would be rude. Even if the host let them in.

SlitherHiss

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #71 on: September 18, 2013, 03:49:11 PM »
For me, as much as anything else (and others have made excellent points I totally agree with) its the unpredictability level of children.  Specifically very young children. Sure anyone of any age can act out at any time, but the odds of a young child acting out (being loud, whiny, kicking their chair leg which reverberates across the floor to other people at other tables, etc) is much greater then the odds of an adults doing so at a fancy restaurant later in the evening. And just having those odds upped, increases a particular level of tension.

If a person is sitting there enjoying their meal and doing nothing to draw attention to themselves and you still have a problem with their presence because they *might* do something, it's your issue.  I don't mean that in a snarky way, but I don't know how else to say it. At that point it's not about the kid doing anything wrong, it's about you. Unless an establishment bills themselves as an adult only place, I just don't see the issue.

Kids are, by their very nature, different from adults and thus your implied argument that it's the same as pre-judging another adult (I assume that's what you meant by "person) doesn't hold water.

The bolded also doesn't make much sense, because I've always held to the idea that just because something isn't prohibited, doesn't mean it's a good idea. Should we not be annoyed when parents fail to recognize clear contextual clues about what is and isn't kid-friendly? Do restaurants really have to say "No children after 7pm" or "No children, period" for you to know that a pricey steakhouse famed for romantic dates and imaginative cocktails is not a suitable place to bring your 8yo for a late Saturday dinner?

Agreed.  The parent may be prepared to wisk the child away the first moment he/she behaves inappropriate for the setting but the damage to the other diners has been done with that disturbance.

Honestly I think that if one momentary disturbance is going to ruin someone's ENTIRE evening, that person is too fragile to be out in public and should be the one staying home.

Who said anything about RUINING? It does change the dynamic to have a child squall during the middle of a romantic dinner. It just does. You may be able to get "back in the game" afterwards, but that's way more of a disruption than a waiter breaking a dish.

I assure you, I'm no delicate flower, but I got a sitter for a reason. Likewise, I don't waltz into Chuch-E-Cheese and demand the kids stop hollering. There is a time and a place for everything.

ScubaGirl

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #72 on: September 18, 2013, 03:49:35 PM »
For me, as much as anything else (and others have made excellent points I totally agree with) its the unpredictability level of children.  Specifically very young children. Sure anyone of any age can act out at any time, but the odds of a young child acting out (being loud, whiny, kicking their chair leg which reverberates across the floor to other people at other tables, etc) is much greater then the odds of an adults doing so at a fancy restaurant later in the evening. And just having those odds upped, increases a particular level of tension.

If a person is sitting there enjoying their meal and doing nothing to draw attention to themselves and you still have a problem with their presence because they *might* do something, it's your issue.  I don't mean that in a snarky way, but I don't know how else to say it. At that point it's not about the kid doing anything wrong, it's about you. Unless an establishment bills themselves as an adult only place, I just don't see the issue.

Kids are, by their very nature, different from adults and thus your implied argument that it's the same as pre-judging another adult (I assume that's what you meant by "person) doesn't hold water.

The bolded also doesn't make much sense, because I've always held to the idea that just because something isn't prohibited, doesn't mean it's a good idea. Should we not be annoyed when parents fail to recognize clear contextual clues about what is and isn't kid-friendly? Do restaurants really have to say "No children after 7pm" or "No children, period" for you to know that a pricey steakhouse famed for romantic dates and imaginative cocktails is not a suitable place to bring your 8yo for a late Saturday dinner?

Agreed.  The parent may be prepared to wisk the child away the first moment he/she behaves inappropriate for the setting but the damage to the other diners has been done with that disturbance.

Honestly I think that if one momentary disturbance is going to ruin someone's ENTIRE evening, that person is too fragile to be out in public and should be the one staying home.

It doesn't have to ruin an ENTIRE evening to be disruptive.  It ruined a moment that should not have been ruined because the child should not have been there.  Yes, the adults sigh and go back to their conversations and the world does not come to an end for them. 

SiotehCat

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #73 on: September 18, 2013, 03:49:47 PM »
But, I think that some of us ARE saying that it's not JUST the behaviors that matter to us.

And again, not in a snarky way, but that's your issue.  Just because you don't like see a child in certain places doesn't mean that child shouldn't be there.  I don't like seeing people dressed sloppily with their bra straps showing and flip-flops on their feet, but that's my issue to deal with.

I agree. If the establishment allows it, then I get to decide whether or not my child belongs there.

If someone doesn't like his presence, then I don't think they belong there.

Judah

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Re: Are there places where kids don't belong? Or am I big, child-free grump?
« Reply #74 on: September 18, 2013, 03:50:48 PM »
But, I think that some of us ARE saying that it's not JUST the behaviors that matter to us.

And again, not in a snarky way, but that's your issue.  Just because you don't like see a child in certain places doesn't mean that child shouldn't be there.  I don't like seeing people dressed sloppily with their bra straps showing and flip-flops on their feet, but that's my issue to deal with.

If they would dress that way in a fancy restaurant, they would be rude. Even if the host let them in.

I mean anywhere out in public.
Ask for what you want. Let's be clear on this one:
Subtle hints don't work.
Strong hints don't work.
Really obvious hints don't work.
Just say it!

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