Why do we do it?

[Venus193]

I have often been of the opinion that the whole "Be nice" thing taught to girls was intended to make doormats of us to be walked over by all older people and any future suitors.

I am no doormat.  I have mastered the Icy Glare of Death and the Raised Eyebrow Move (could have taught that one to Spock!).  However, my lack of perfect teeth spoils my Ice Queen image.

Someone had a perfect response recently to a rude comment which was to bait the rude person into digging himself in deeper.  Love that.

[cabbageweevil]

I might be venturing into dangerous territory here; but I wonder whether meekness in the face of obnoxiousness and rudeness is partly accounted for, by Christianity's influence on Western culture, and / or individual Christian instruction received by people at a young age. It is enjoined on Christians: "Turn the other cheek"; "Do good to those that despitefully use you"; "Render unto no man evil for evil". It strikes me as imaginable that many people may, at various levels of consciousness, feel that this is the proper way to behave; and in fact do often behave thus -- whether they are believing / practising Christians, or not.

So far as I understand the matter, it is not basically in order to make life run more smoothly, or to improve the offender's behaviour, that this way of responding is enjoined upon Christians.  Being a Christian is seen as, overall, making a person over into a new kind of creature -- in many ways, not carrying out standard / normal human conduct or interaction; which can make interaction more difficult and less agreeable. This last, seen as part of the cross which every adherent of the faith has to bear.

I think this is absolutely spot-on for a lot of us. Combine this with the aforementioned "social conditioning," and it is very hard to not be a meekly overly-polite when you are both female and raised Christian.

Personally, this is why I found a balanced spot between "retaliatory rudeness" and "shocked silence." It is important for me, in many cases, to at least draw a person's attention to their rudeness with a pointed, calm question, asserting myself while letting them know that a certain comment or behavior is totally unacceptable. Especially since I spent the first decades of my life being a "good Christian girl," which meant I was stricken with guilt at the thought of hurting others' feelings or being thought of as rude or a b-word, even if the other person was being rude or cruel to me.

An example of this is when someone makes a comment about my physical appearance, be it catcalling, or someone telling me to "smile!" When I was younger, I was once hurrying to work. As I passed a group of young men, one loudly exclaimed, "Look at her [rude word] bounce!" Then, I turned red, felt ashamed, and hunched my shoulders. The thought of "escalating" the situation with a "confrontation" was unthinkable. Now, when someone makes a comment like that, I usually stop, go back, look them in the eye, and ask, "Why would you say that? You claim you were trying to compliment me, but how is yelling a comment like that a compliment?" I keep up with a calm, focused question until the person realizes that no, I'm not backing down, and yes, their behavior was unacceptable. Usually they bluster about what a humorless female dog I am, but the point is, I feel better.

So if I had been confronted by Crazy Shoe Lady, personally it would be important for me to engage, not just ignore, after the first comment. "Ma'am, I don't know you, and I'm not spending your money. Why do you care what kind of shoes I wear? That's an interesting assumption. Why are you so invested in other peoples' attire? Why would you bother a complete stranger about something like that?"

You can turn the other cheek once, but if you keep turning it back and forth, it's just someone repeatedly slapping you.

So I absolutely understand why other eHellions might be more comfortable ignoring a rude person and not letting it affect their day, or engage in any way. But for me, it is very important to respond to certain situations after a lifetime of being trained that, as a girl and as a Christian, I was not supposed to.

Responding to poundcake’s post, above – I’m a computer-idiot, and the quote-tree stuff here is for me, unhandleable: easier for me to type out relevant quotes from poundcake, word-by-word.

poundcake writes: “I think this is absolutely spot-on for a lot of us. Combine this with the abovementioned ‘social conditioning’, and it is very hard to not be meekly over-polite when you are both female and raised Christian.”

I’m male, and not a Christian; but that belief-system has impinged on me quite strongly, at various times of my life... quite possibly causing me at times to act meekly in the face of rudeness / aggression, where I otherwise would not have done so. And even in secular terms, I can see the attraction of the precept “render unto no man evil for evil”.

poundcake writes:  “I spent the first decades of my life being a ‘good Christian girl’, which meant I was stricken with guilt  at the thought of hurting others’ feelings or being thought of as rude or a b-word, even if the other person was being rude or cruel to me.”

Those Christians with the more bleak “takes” on the faith, will tell one that no matter what happens, the Christian will often be thought of as being in one way or another, “an unsatisfactory person”, and will be “flamed” for it – some will add, such treatment will come even more from fellow-Christians, than from non-Christians. Which would seem to suggest – disregard as far as possible, what random jerks (co-religionists, or other) think of one – while returning to them, good for evil.  For sure, easier to recommend, than to do –  and maybe threatening to lead into “crazy land”.

poundcake writes:  “as I passed a group of young men, one loudly exclaimed, ‘Look at her [rude word] bounce !”  Then, I turned red, felt ashamed, and hunched my shoulders...”

First, I apologise on behalf of my gender.  Then – I get the picture that a rejoinder of an appropriate scriptural quotation – delivered in a cheerful and friendly fashion – is OK Christian-wise: here, Matthew 5, 27 – 30, would seem appropriate.

[TurtleDove]

On a psychological front - when someone comes out with a random insult, often they are trying to get a reaction or start a fight - to see that they've hurt you.  If their words have no effect, or produce a puzzled or slightly contemptuous look, then the insulter ends up looking foolish.

This.  It would be strange for anyone to describe me as a doormat, but this is how I prefer to handle situations where it is clear someone is trying to hurt me.  They can expend their energy and negative emotion trying.....but I won't grant them a payoff of succeeding.

[Twik]

I don't see "not making a scene" as being particularly religious-based. It's a necessity, in general terms, for civilized living in groups, that people accept minor, unintentional insults, just as in a crowd we accept the unintentional shove or trodden toes. If we all took umbrage at such things, we'd be back fighting duels every time someone's hat got knocked off. To make a big deal about such things is considered rude, because it upsets the communal harmony.

However, there appears a grey and hard-to-define line beyond which trespasses are no longer tolerable as just part of living together. Unfortunately, in the interests of general social cohesion, our society has come to favour the passive-aggressive response, as a way of retaliating without appearing to be hostile to the offender. "Making a scene" by objecting directly is considered rude because it usually demands a response from bystanders, from taking sides to intervening directly (even physically). This allows those who do not fear such scenes to have much more emotional and social leverage than they should, because they place the responsibility for avoiding scenes on those they have offended.

[NyaChan]

On a psychological front - when someone comes out with a random insult, often they are trying to get a reaction or start a fight - to see that they've hurt you.  If their words have no effect, or produce a puzzled or slightly contemptuous look, then the insulter ends up looking foolish.

This.  It would be strange for anyone to describe me as a doormat, but this is how I prefer to handle situations where it is clear someone is trying to hurt me.  They can expend their energy and negative emotion trying.....but I won't grant them a payoff of succeeding.

Yes, for me ignoring or responding neutrally means I've lost nothing - no time or energy spent on them in the moment or later on in my week thinking or dwelling on what they've said.  Giving a stronger reaction raises the chances that it becomes an event that I'll remember rather than a passing moment of irritation that is forgotten by the end of the day.  Now if it is a recurring sort of thing with people I see a lot, then it would benefit me to nip it in the bud or seek a long term solution, but with a random stranger, not so much.

[TurtleDove]

I sometimes take it even further and "assume" someone who is trying to hurt me is "kidding" or just simply so off base I couldn't possibly take what they have said seriously. It catches people off guard and frankly makes me feel better (and hopefully makes them feel either worse or ineffective in their attempted bullying).

[Twik]

I should also point out the difficulties in some subcultures where people are willing to respond directly to being "disrespected". This can lead to a small incident growing into physical altercations.

It's a matter of finding a happy medium to exist as a (relatively) peaceful society without having some people feeling forced to endure horrid treatment.