Author Topic: Do you call people out on PA comments?  (Read 23168 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

gramma dishes

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 8182
Re: Do you call people out on PA comments?
« Reply #75 on: October 04, 2013, 01:28:56 PM »


IME, reception invitations and wedding invitations are never separate  ...

Actually in my experience they often are, for a variety of reasons. 

As one example:
We received an announcement of my nephew's wedding (not an invitation) but we were invited to the reception immediately following the ceremony.  They had chosen to have the wedding performed in the bride's parents' home which could not accommodate many people.  So only immediate family, (parents, grandparents, brothers and sisters) to the actually ceremony, but friends and "other" family (aunts, uncles, cousins) were invited to the reception which was held in a larger venue.


Twik

  • A Pillar of the Forum
  • *****
  • Posts: 28632
Re: Do you call people out on PA comments?
« Reply #76 on: October 04, 2013, 01:32:35 PM »
I think the OP can take from this thread that it makes sense to explain her atheism and what it entails to her sister and inlaws so they understand where she is coming from. It seems lots of people on this board don't fully understand the OP's reasoning and it's probably best for the long term relationship with the inlaws if they do.

Actually, my own take is that this is likely to result in confusion (as we've seen in the thread). If I were in her shoes, I'd go with "sorry, I won't be able to make that date," and avoid the JADEing that's likely to result.
My cousin's memoir of love and loneliness while raising a child with multiple disabilities will be out on Amazon soon! Know the Night, by Maria Mutch, has been called "full of hope, light, and companionship for surviving the small hours of the night."

Goosey

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1086
Re: Do you call people out on PA comments?
« Reply #77 on: October 04, 2013, 01:33:16 PM »


IME, reception invitations and wedding invitations are never separate  ...

Actually in my experience they often are, for a variety of reasons. 

As one example:
We received an announcement of my nephew's wedding (not an invitation) but we were invited to the reception immediately following the ceremony.  They had chosen to have the wedding performed in the bride's parents' home which could not accommodate many people.  So only immediate family, (parents, grandparents, brothers and sisters) to the actually ceremony, but friends and "other" family (aunts, uncles, cousins) were invited to the reception which was held in a larger venue.

Good to know it happens, but if you separated out a wedding vs. reception invitation based on your assumption of someone elses' religious tolerance, that's where you have to be careful. If it's a friend/family member, there should be no problem with asking that person "would you feel comfortable coming to a wedding ceremony" rather than running the risk of excluding someone who would have liked to go.

But this is very, very off topic lol

gramma dishes

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 8182
Re: Do you call people out on PA comments?
« Reply #78 on: October 04, 2013, 01:45:29 PM »


...   But this is very, very off topic lol

True.  Sorry.  Back to our regularly scheduled ...   :D

Aeris

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 9638
Re: Do you call people out on PA comments?
« Reply #79 on: October 04, 2013, 05:33:59 PM »
I think the OP can take from this thread that it makes sense to explain her atheism and what it entails to her sister and inlaws so they understand where she is coming from. It seems lots of people on this board don't fully understand the OP's reasoning and it's probably best for the long term relationship with the inlaws if they do.

So, if I don't feel I can accept an invitation for complex, nuanced religious reasons that I know many people are either going to be confused by or just flat-out refuse to try to understand, I'm expected to justify myself to them by extensive explanation of my religious beliefs?

Wouldn't this just invite people to argue with me about what my religious beliefs should or should not entail/permit/etc? Isn't that precisely what's happened in this very thread?

What a quagmire. What would anyone be required to invite that sort of scrutiny into their personal belief systems?

TootsNYC

  • A Pillar of the Forum
  • *****
  • Posts: 30827
Re: Do you call people out on PA comments?
« Reply #80 on: October 04, 2013, 05:45:05 PM »
Well, this is her family, her *closest* family, and they'll be issuing lots of invitations to her, and may find themselves feeling rejected when she doesn't accept him.

TurtleDove didn't say the explanation was required--just that in her opinion "it makes sense" and is "probably best for the long term relationship."

She was talking strategy, not "requirements of etiquette."

Two Ravens

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2321
  • One for sorrow, Two for mirth...
Re: Do you call people out on PA comments?
« Reply #81 on: October 04, 2013, 05:50:49 PM »
I don't think the explanation has to be particular nuanced either. "I feel very uncomfortable in a church. I'll generally make exceptions for wedding and funerals, but otherwise I'd rather not attend church or religious events."

To me, that is much clearer and kinder than to keep refusing and "hoping they'll eventually get it." Best not to expect people to read your mind.

EllenS

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1368
Re: Do you call people out on PA comments?
« Reply #82 on: October 04, 2013, 05:57:57 PM »
I don't think the explanation has to be particular nuanced either. "I feel very uncomfortable in a church. I'll generally make exceptions for wedding and funerals, but otherwise I'd rather not attend church or religious events."

To me, that is much clearer and kinder than to keep refusing and "hoping they'll eventually get it." Best not to expect people to read your mind.

POD.

Anyway, I took the bit about refusals= not invited to the wedding, to mean that if you consistently reject invitations without an explanation, it is likely to damage the relationship.  People can't demonstrate respect for your beliefs and choices if the only choice they know about is, I choose not to be around you. 

That is bound to be hurtful, whether you meant it that way or not.

Green Bean

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 117
Re: Do you call people out on PA comments?
« Reply #83 on: October 04, 2013, 08:08:17 PM »
OP again.

I attend funerals to pay my respects to the deceased and to comfort families. (although I've never been to one in a church - always a funeral home. I attend weddings to support people I care about on one if the biggest days I'd their life. I've even attended baptisms.  In my mind, it's easy to separate these events from a church service that is completely focused on the worship. I see now that not everyone feels this way.

Reading all these comments, I realized how the word 'uncomfortable' can have different meanings to different people. I don't find churches offensive. The reason I say I'm uncomfortable is that when I go, I get crabby. Really crabby. It's hard to explain and even harder to understand, but I'll try.  I think about how I don't believe the same tenets of the faith as this large room full of people and that I don't belong. It's a very lonely, isolating feeling, and I don't enjoy it. Then I continue to wonder why I got talked into going, knowing I wouldn't feel that way if I wasn't there.  I don't want to put myself in this situation for a holiday that is supposed to be fun.

Some people have mentioned that it seems like I don't want to celebrate with the family for the holiday. That's not the case at all. I just don't want it to be at church. The service is at 5. I imagine it will last a minimum of 1 - 1.5 hours, then getting out of a crowded parking lot, and then driving to SIL's home. We are looking at 6:30 - 7:00 before we even spend time with anyone. If we skip church, that still gets us there around the same time. My youngest is in bed at 7pm every night. Sure we can extend it a bit, and would without hesitation if we were spending more time with everybody, but that's a bit late for us to be heading out. It just doesn't make sense.

As far as SIL goes, we get along exceptionally well when we are together. The getting together is the issue. In the past 10 years, she has backed out of about 80% - 90% of any activities we plan with her (outside of holidays and her kids birthdays). After about 8 years or so, I stopped trying and left it to DH or her to initiate anything. And no one ever asks us what works for us, but whatever is arranged always works for her. It gets old. I want my kids to know their cousins growing up, but they have more interaction with their out of state cousins who they see a few times a year than the ones that live in the same town. So, as far as Christmas goes... Yes, i'd like to see them. But given the level of effort they give us, I think they could be flexible with the church thing. I'm willing to have brunch on Christmas Eve or Christmas Day, whatever works for them to visit her IL's. I just don't want to get together at a time that incorporates a holiday church service, regardless of who is singing, acting, or speaking upfront.

DH talked to his sister, and she mentioned that we could leave right after nephew sings or we could stay. She said there would be kids activities afterwards and they may stay if nephew wants to be with his friends, and my older daughter could stay as well. It feels to me that she wants us to prioritize her son, but that they aren't prioritizing spending time with us at all.

Sorry for the length.


Otterpop

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1260
Re: Do you call people out on PA comments?
« Reply #84 on: October 05, 2013, 08:46:31 AM »
But the priority IS for the nephew's performance that day.  Spending time is secondary to all the activities going on.

My DD is playing in a church band this Sunday.  I've invited my aunt, who is agnostic, to attend specifically to see and support DD.  Going to lunch afterwards, spending time with her is impossible due to multiple services/performances.  Aunt is happy to attend to see DD even though she doesn't particularly like being in a church.  It's just a building to her (Frankly, it's just a building to us too - it's the people we interact with that comprise "the church" and she won't be required to do any of that)  She can leave or stay depending on her level of comfort.

In turn, I go to her (boring) civics activities that involve family attendance.  It's just what we do for family.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2013, 08:48:16 AM by Otterpop »

Piratelvr1121

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 11110
Re: Do you call people out on PA comments?
« Reply #85 on: October 05, 2013, 09:49:08 AM »
My DH is agnostic and doesn't particularly enjoy attending church on a regular basis and out of respect to him, I don't ask him to attend every week.  But I do ask him from time to time to attend events that are meaningful to me or the kids.  Like Piratebabe's baptism, my induction into the Daughters of the King (prayer/service group within the Episcopal church), Christmas Eve service (because all 3 were in the pageant), and a service this upcoming December for when our oldest will be confirmed and I'll be received.

He does it because as he says "It's what you do for family" and he's attended Catholic weddings and funerals too in the past.  Now I will say that based on what I know of his spiritual and theological stance, I do think he'd agree with the Episcopal church's stance on things, but I'm not going to push him, either.
Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars.  You have a right to be here. Be cheerful, strive to be happy. -Desiderata

Sharnita

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 21524
Re: Do you call people out on PA comments?
« Reply #86 on: October 05, 2013, 10:07:34 AM »
It sound's like SIL's philosophy is "That's what OP does for us" not "That's what family does for each other"

Green Bean

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 117
Re: Do you call people out on PA comments?
« Reply #87 on: October 05, 2013, 11:01:56 AM »
But the priority IS for the nephew's performance that day.  Spending time is secondary to all the activities going on.


This is where I disagree. If this were a school play or a dance recital, the performance would be the primary purpose. But in this case, the sole reason for the performance is to celebrate the religious occasion. If it weren't Christmas, this performance wouldn't even exist.

mbbored

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 5315
    • Budget Grad Student
Re: Do you call people out on PA comments?
« Reply #88 on: October 05, 2013, 11:44:23 AM »
I think the OP can take from this thread that it makes sense to explain her atheism and what it entails to her sister and inlaws so they understand where she is coming from. It seems lots of people on this board don't fully understand the OP's reasoning and it's probably best for the long term relationship with the inlaws if they do.

So, if I don't feel I can accept an invitation for complex, nuanced religious reasons that I know many people are either going to be confused by or just flat-out refuse to try to understand, I'm expected to justify myself to them by extensive explanation of my religious beliefs?

Wouldn't this just invite people to argue with me about what my religious beliefs should or should not entail/permit/etc? Isn't that precisely what's happened in this very thread?

What a quagmire. What would anyone be required to invite that sort of scrutiny into their personal belief systems?

I agree.

And there's a huge difference between attending a religious service to go a niece or nephew's music performance which, in my opinion, are a dime a dozen, versus going to a funeral or a wedding, which are once in a lifetime events and I imagine most people can see the difference.

My brothers are atheists and don't attend holiday services and as a result, miss my niece and nephew's performances during those services. However, they do attend baptisms, weddings, funerals: the events that are actually important to the individual.

Otterpop

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1260
Re: Do you call people out on PA comments?
« Reply #89 on: October 05, 2013, 06:56:45 PM »
I think the OP can take from this thread that it makes sense to explain her atheism and what it entails to her sister and inlaws so they understand where she is coming from. It seems lots of people on this board don't fully understand the OP's reasoning and it's probably best for the long term relationship with the inlaws if they do.

So, if I don't feel I can accept an invitation for complex, nuanced religious reasons that I know many people are either going to be confused by or just flat-out refuse to try to understand, I'm expected to justify myself to them by extensive explanation of my religious beliefs?

Wouldn't this just invite people to argue with me about what my religious beliefs should or should not entail/permit/etc? Isn't that precisely what's happened in this very thread?

What a quagmire. What would anyone be required to invite that sort of scrutiny into their personal belief systems?

I agree.

And there's a huge difference between attending a religious service to go a niece or nephew's music performance which, in my opinion, are a dime a dozen, versus going to a funeral or a wedding, which are once in a lifetime events and I imagine most people can see the difference.

My brothers are atheists and don't attend holiday services and as a result, miss my niece and nephew's performances during those services. However, they do attend baptisms, weddings, funerals: the events that are actually important to the individual.

If it's a large church, some people only get to perform once, or once in a blue moon.  It IS important to that individual.