Author Topic: s/o Wedding evangelizing - Forewarning of wedding service content?  (Read 10016 times)

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TurtleDove

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Re: s/o Wedding evangelizing - Forewarning of wedding service content?
« Reply #75 on: October 09, 2013, 04:18:57 PM »
...to hear the officiant say that no matter what he does to her, no matter how he treats her, she must obey her husband, and to see her friends and family sitting there agreeing (or at least, not disagreeing) that she has to take it because she's less than her husband, because she does not deserve to be treated as a full human being...I personally believe that furthers abuse and is a damaging viewpoint. 

I don't want to get off track into doctrine but this is decidedly *not* what mainstream Christian doctrine says about this. As I think Sharnita pointed out, the flipside to the "wives obey your husbands" is for the husbands to love their wives as Christ loves the church, which means the husband would place his wife first and love her and never treat her as less than himself.  The passages should be (and in my experience are) read in tandem, but I think some people fail to "hear" and absorb the edict to husbands because they are offended by the "obey" terminology.

Back to your regularly scheduled program.  :)
« Last Edit: October 09, 2013, 04:21:14 PM by TurtleDove »

nuit93

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Re: s/o Wedding evangelizing - Forewarning of wedding service content?
« Reply #76 on: October 09, 2013, 04:21:44 PM »
I accept that other people have different views to me and it doesn't bother me to listen to them for a bit, so I don't walk out. Just being present at a wedding where they are spoken doesn't, to me, mean that anyone listening necessarily agrees or approves, and I don't see it as giving it any sort of personal stamp of approval. Presumably those who attend the church regularly agree, but that's not the same thing.

This is pretty much how I feel about it. Lots of people hold views I disagree with. If I got offended every time someone said something I disagreed with, well, that's just too stressful.  People are entitled to their views and I don't have to agree with them. But I don't understand, and maybe someone can explain to me, why hearing something like wives being submissive to their husband would upset a witness. If that's what your friends believe, and what works for their relationship, why would you care?

It can be triggering to someone who has been in an abusive marriage/rel@tionship.

And if the minister says something about them having children it can be trigging to someone struggling with infertility.  And if the minster hopes those children grow up big and healthy it can be triggering to someone with a disabled child.  I think it's unfair to declare that there are topics that can't be approached because they might be 'triggering' - we all have our sensitivities.

I agree with the view that if you attend someone's wedding or funeral, you need to appreciate that the ceremony is about _them_ and _their_ beliefs.  If you will only be comfortable if you can reconcile their beliefs to yours, than you should probably decline attendance.

I'm not sure that comparing abuse (which can be severe and potentially deadly for the victim at worst, I've known survivors who dealt with PTSD attacks for years after leaving their abusers) is a fair comparison to having a disabled child or being infertile.

 

TurtleDove

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Re: s/o Wedding evangelizing - Forewarning of wedding service content?
« Reply #77 on: October 09, 2013, 04:22:54 PM »
I didn't see any comparison between the situations aside from pointing out that various things are "triggers" to various people for different reasons and it would be impossible to conduct life with the goal of never triggering anyone.

DavidH

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Re: s/o Wedding evangelizing - Forewarning of wedding service content?
« Reply #78 on: October 09, 2013, 04:31:11 PM »
I'm asking about how*  to politely avoid attending weddings where this viewpoint is stated by the officiant. 

I think if you feel so strongly about this that you cannot sit through a wedding where it is mentioned, the best option is to decline to attend the ceremony citing a prior engagement and then just attend the reception.  Since it is most likely to be mentioned during the vows, it is going to come across as rude to leave in the middle of the vows.  You can mitigate the rudeness somewhat by sitting at the back on an end so you can make a quick exit, but if between the end of the "Do you ...." and the "I do" you leave, it's going to be noticable to the couple.

EllenS

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Re: s/o Wedding evangelizing - Forewarning of wedding service content?
« Reply #79 on: October 09, 2013, 04:32:45 PM »
To me the thing to remember is that someone else's wedding is not about you or your beliefs - no matter how right you are or how passionately you believe in it.

Attending doesn't mean condoning everything they preach - you're there to support the HC.  No more, no less.

I am really flabbergasted that anyone would think it appropriate to protest the content of a wedding service by walking out of a friend's wedding.

Obviously, if something is said in a religious service that causes so much grief or pain that you might have an inappropriate emotional outburst, then you need to discreetly exit and take care of yourself, just as you would if you had food poisoning or an asthma attack.  The point being, to attend to your practical needs and avoid disrupting the service - not to make some kind of statement of disagreement.

If you don't support the marriage, don't attend the wedding.  If you do support the marriage, is it really going to give you a spiritual hernia to remember for one hour that this is not about you?

Criminey, if a clergyperson is not at liberty to express his/her religious beliefs in their own house of worship, when for the love of the Universe and any Diety therein is there any freedom or tolerance of religion?

nuit93

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Re: s/o Wedding evangelizing - Forewarning of wedding service content?
« Reply #80 on: October 09, 2013, 04:36:19 PM »
To me the thing to remember is that someone else's wedding is not about you or your beliefs - no matter how right you are or how passionately you believe in it.

Attending doesn't mean condoning everything they preach - you're there to support the HC.  No more, no less.

I am really flabbergasted that anyone would think it appropriate to protest the content of a wedding service by walking out of a friend's wedding.

Obviously, if something is said in a religious service that causes so much grief or pain that you might have an inappropriate emotional outburst, then you need to discreetly exit and take care of yourself, just as you would if you had food poisoning or an asthma attack.  The point being, to attend to your practical needs and avoid disrupting the service - not to make some kind of statement of disagreement.

If you don't support the marriage, don't attend the wedding.  If you do support the marriage, is it really going to give you a spiritual hernia to remember for one hour that this is not about you?

Criminey, if a clergyperson is not at liberty to express his/her religious beliefs in their own house of worship, when for the love of the Universe and any Diety therein is there any freedom or tolerance of religion?

What if the wedding ceremony was being conducted by a clergyperson but in a non-religious setting (country club, reception hall, etc)?  Should guests still feel obligated to remain seated?

TurtleDove

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Re: s/o Wedding evangelizing - Forewarning of wedding service content?
« Reply #81 on: October 09, 2013, 04:38:10 PM »
POD to EllenS. 

TurtleDove

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Re: s/o Wedding evangelizing - Forewarning of wedding service content?
« Reply #82 on: October 09, 2013, 04:40:23 PM »
What if the wedding ceremony was being conducted by a clergyperson but in a non-religious setting (country club, reception hall, etc)?  Should guests still feel obligated to remain seated?

For me, the concept is the same: yes, the guest should feel obligated to remain seated, unless the guest's goal is to make the wedding ceremony about the guest's personal beliefs and the guest wants to make a statement to the detriment of the reason all of the other guests are gathered. This is about the two people getting married, not about the belief system of one guest.

EllenS

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Re: s/o Wedding evangelizing - Forewarning of wedding service content?
« Reply #83 on: October 09, 2013, 04:44:29 PM »

What if the wedding ceremony was being conducted by a clergyperson but in a non-religious setting (country club, reception hall, etc)?  Should guests still feel obligated to remain seated?


Yes, of course - and an open-air funeral is also a *real* funeral.  And a bris in someone's home is still a *real* bris.  And a handfasting on the beach is a *real* handfasting.  If you can't demonstrate respect for the institution, don't go at all.

nuit93

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Re: s/o Wedding evangelizing - Forewarning of wedding service content?
« Reply #84 on: October 09, 2013, 04:48:10 PM »
To me the thing to remember is that someone else's wedding is not about you or your beliefs - no matter how right you are or how passionately you believe in it.

Attending doesn't mean condoning everything they preach - you're there to support the HC.  No more, no less.

I am really flabbergasted that anyone would think it appropriate to protest the content of a wedding service by walking out of a friend's wedding.

Obviously, if something is said in a religious service that causes so much grief or pain that you might have an inappropriate emotional outburst, then you need to discreetly exit and take care of yourself, just as you would if you had food poisoning or an asthma attack.  The point being, to attend to your practical needs and avoid disrupting the service - not to make some kind of statement of disagreement.

If you don't support the marriage, don't attend the wedding.  If you do support the marriage, is it really going to give you a spiritual hernia to remember for one hour that this is not about you?

Criminey, if a clergyperson is not at liberty to express his/her religious beliefs in their own house of worship, when for the love of the Universe and any Diety therein is there any freedom or tolerance of religion?

I have a situation that I think should be an exception, perhaps others would feel differently.

Relative is invited with their same-gender partner to a wedding.  The wedding is in a church which from all appearances is 'mainstream' and while not openly stating that they approve of SS partnerships there is nothing to indicate that they are strongly hateful towards them, or that said relative should feel unwelcome there.

The wedding sermon contains repeated references to the evils of SS marriage and other diatribes that the relative finds hurtful and insulting. 

In this case, both partners stayed, even though they both felt so hurt by the sermon that they went home instead of attending the reception.  Had I been said person I don't know if I would have been able to stay in my seat (or hold my tongue).

gramma dishes

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Re: s/o Wedding evangelizing - Forewarning of wedding service content?
« Reply #85 on: October 09, 2013, 04:48:34 PM »

 


There's a story in the Archives about a Bride and Groom who specifically told their Minister (who was marrying them) to please omit the "obey" part from the Bride's vows, as neither party were comfortable with it.

Unfortunately, the Minister deliberately disregarded that, and during the vows, said the words "love, honour, AND OBEY". I recall the LW (the Bride) was so taken aback and didn't want to cause a huge scene, so she just went along and vowed to obey.

...

That happened to a very close friend of mine decades ago.  Without missing a beat she looked up sweetly at her husband and said "I promise to love, honor and cherish you for the rest of my life."  The pastor looked a little perplexed, but after a few silent seconds he recovered his composure and the wedding continued.

nuit93

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Re: s/o Wedding evangelizing - Forewarning of wedding service content?
« Reply #86 on: October 09, 2013, 04:56:25 PM »

What if the wedding ceremony was being conducted by a clergyperson but in a non-religious setting (country club, reception hall, etc)?  Should guests still feel obligated to remain seated?


Yes, of course - and an open-air funeral is also a *real* funeral.  And a bris in someone's home is still a *real* bris.  And a handfasting on the beach is a *real* handfasting.  If you can't demonstrate respect for the institution, don't go at all.

Thank you for clarifying--the previous wording " if a clergyperson is not at liberty to express his/her religious beliefs in their own house of worship, when for the love of the Universe and any Diety therein is there any freedom or tolerance of religion?" had me uncertain as to whether you were referring specifically to being in the building or not.

gellchom

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Re: s/o Wedding evangelizing - Forewarning of wedding service content?
« Reply #87 on: October 09, 2013, 04:59:02 PM »
Another POD to EllenS. 

We see so many posts about people wondering what it "means" for them to attend a wedding when they don't approve of the match, too.

It doesn't mean ANYTHING other than that you are there to share an important day in the life of someone you care about.  It doesn't mean you endorse everything or even anything that the officiant or anyone else says.  It doesn't mean that you approve of the marriage. It doesn't mean anything at all about us guests -- the wedding is not about us.  Attendance does not equal endorsement.   No one is thinking about us or our opinions anyway.  It is possible to be offended and, as others have put it, just let it roll off you when it is in a context like this.  I cringe when I hear a wedding with the "submission" parts, too, but no one is asking me to sign an endorsement, you know.  It's simply not about me.

The only reason I could condone walking out is if, as others have said, you simply cannot control yourself for some very unusual reason and would make a bigger scene by staying.  But rules of etiquette are not built around such exceptional cases.  Walking out of a wedding is a VERY BIG DEAL.  I wouldn't do it unless I were sick and about to vomit, no matter how offended I was -- and I have been, very -- at weddings.  And even then, I would do it absolutely discreetly.

I wouldn't tell anyone else later, either.  I might totally hate what that officiant says, but it is rude to trash your friend's wedding ceremony, let alone to insult other people's expressions of their own religions in their own churches. 

Ditto funerals.  I'd never heard of funerals where there is no eulogy, only a fire and brimstone evangelical sermon, so I was taken by surprise years ago when I went to our office manager's mother's funeral that was like that.  The other law partner and I were -- very conspicuously -- the only Jews in the room, and I don't think that it was our imagination that the minister looked directly at us almost the whole time.  Our poor friend was so embarrassed and apologized to us afterward.  It was indeed very uncomfortable, but we assured her that it wasn't, at all.  Of course we hated every second of it, but we were able to remember that this funeral was not about us and our feelings, it was about her and her feelings. 

The funeral Figgie described might be where I would draw the line!  Wow.  I mean, that guy was making people DO something they didn't want to do while he was insulting them.  (I wouldn't, say, take communion or stand up and say I accept Jesus as my savior or that there is no god but Allah no matter how politely I was asked.) 

But simply hearing something I disagree with, no matter how strongly, and even being quite offended, are to me insufficient grounds for boycotting or walking out of someone's wedding.  I accepted the invitation, and this is what they were inviting me to, whether I like it or not.  If you are truly so hypersensitive that you simply can't bear it, then decline the invitation the same as you would have to do for any other handicap.

QueenfaninCA

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Re: s/o Wedding evangelizing - Forewarning of wedding service content?
« Reply #88 on: October 09, 2013, 04:59:17 PM »
Weddings (or funerals for that matter) are really not the place for an officiant to chastise anyone. They should be celebrations of a couple's love (or a persons life in case of a funeral).

And to this end I think the officiant should have an idea about his audience. Are they all members of this congregation or a similar one elsewhere? Are there other denominations present, other faiths? And then somewhat "play to the crowd".

I'm pretty sure there is enough material for a sermon on marriage that most world religions (including atheists and agnostics) can agree upon. Why not stay on safe ground and perhaps show someone that your particular flavor of religion is actually open and welcoming. You might even get someone to want to join which I doubt will happen if you chastise them.

nuit93

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Re: s/o Wedding evangelizing - Forewarning of wedding service content?
« Reply #89 on: October 09, 2013, 05:02:32 PM »
Weddings (or funerals for that matter) are really not the place for an officiant to chastise anyone. They should be celebrations of a couple's love (or a persons life in case of a funeral).

And to this end I think the officiant should have an idea about his audience. Are they all members of this congregation or a similar one elsewhere? Are there other denominations present, other faiths? And then somewhat "play to the crowd".

I'm pretty sure there is enough material for a sermon on marriage that most world religions (including atheists and agnostics) can agree upon. Why not stay on safe ground and perhaps show someone that your particular flavor of religion is actually open and welcoming. You might even get someone to want to join which I doubt will happen if you chastise them.

POD.