Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?

[Victim Of Fate]

To be honest - I'm surprised Alice didn't start getting ready before anyone else was awake.  I understand lounging, but why bother getting dressed to the point of looking ready to walk out the door and not just finishing getting ready? 

I get being on vacation - but staying in PJs is one thing - it is obvious to everyone that you're not ready and they take your get ready time into account (meaning even if she didn't move soon enough, it wouldn't have surprised anyone that she still needed to get ready).

In fairness, I think that the reason she was up is because she went to her car to get something. Then she didn't bother getting ready because she thought that we weren't leaving till 12.

I think Alice was mostly in the wrong here.

- If she really felt she needed firm plans, she should have said that in a crystal clear way.  I get uptight about plans myself, but when someone says "in a couple hours", my response is generally the polite version of "no, really, please tell me a time so I can plan".
- She gets dressed, but not ready to go?  That is massively confusing to the people around her.
- She sits and watches TV, disregarding the obvious 'get ready' activity around her until everyone joins her on the couch and then goes to get ready after they are all clearly done.
- She is awake for quite some time before the next person, but doesn't take the opportunity to get herself ready to leave.

It's not that she should have to get ready so early, but that there is just no reason for the half-ready-half-not state that she put herself in, followed by the lack of communication.

The thing is, I think if I was her (and I have been in the same situation), I would probably say that it was up to me what I chose to wear while lounging around. We all made the assumption that she was ready, but what I thought was slightly unfair was that everyone else (there were actually seven of us - I just couldn't be bothered to think up three more names!) seemed to think that she had been inconsiderate, whereas I didn't really think she had.

I mean, like her, I thought that we were planning on leaving at midday, so I can entirely see why she thought that she still had half an hour at 11:30. It does seem that most of you think the same as the majority of that group - that she should have taken note of the fact that everyone else was getting ready. I think from her point of view, she didn't know that people were getting ready specifically with a view to leaving, but rather that they were just getting ready - since she had 12pm as the start time in her mind, I think she was probably assuming that people were just getting ready for the day, rather than getting ready to leave ASAP.

That's why I thought it was a little unfair, especially as everyone had been a little non-committal about when they wanted to leave in the first place.

[TurtleDove]

I can see her making a statement in this case of, I asked for a definite plans to be made and I'd like that to happen.

I agree with this, and would just emphasize that definite plans *were* made ... to leave at noon.  Alice stuck to the plans and it was the rest of the group that wanted to change them.

[lowspark]

I can see her making a statement in this case of, I asked for a definite plans to be made and I'd like that to happen.

I agree with this, and would just emphasize that definite plans *were* made ... to leave at noon.  Alice stuck to the plans and it was the rest of the group that wanted to change them.

Yup, and this is exactly where the communication broke down:

Alice asks Bob what the plans are, and he tells her that they will probably head out in a couple of hours.

Alice asked Bob. Bob gave her e sort of vague answer: "probably" and "in a couple of hours", and none of that was communicated to the rest of the group.

So, Alice took Bob at his word, firmed up the "probably" in her own mind, and stuck with that. I can see the frustration on her part, but I can also see the frustration of the rest of the group as they feel that it should be clear to Alice that they are getting ready to head out and they feel she should have been ready when they were.

[wolfie]

I can see her making a statement in this case of, I asked for a definite plans to be made and I'd like that to happen.

I agree with this, and would just emphasize that definite plans *were* made ... to leave at noon.  Alice stuck to the plans and it was the rest of the group that wanted to change them.

I don't think you can say that. To me a couple of hours doesn't equal 2 hours specifically. To me that phrasing would indicate that we should start getting ready now and we will probably head out as soon as we are all ready. 7 people getting ready should take a couple of hours, give or take.

[Arila]

When there were 4 people, I said it was rude to do anything to drag down the pace of going and doing. Now that there are actually 7 people on this trip, I think it was even more rude of her to be a drag on the plans for the day. It just takes 1 person not being ready to slow everything down, so the larger the group, the more important it is to reduce your contribution to the drag.

She knew the plans were, in general, to go out, and she should have gotten ready before she lounged around.

I think she was being very PA about the whole thing. She wanted specific plans, the group declined, so she made sure to make them feel it the next day.

[Judah]

I can see her making a statement in this case of, I asked for a definite plans to be made and I'd like that to happen.

I agree with this, and would just emphasize that definite plans *were* made ... to leave at noon.  Alice stuck to the plans and it was the rest of the group that wanted to change them.

I don't think you can say that. To me a couple of hours doesn't equal 2 hours specifically. To me that phrasing would indicate that we should start getting ready now and we will probably head out as soon as we are all ready. 7 people getting ready should take a couple of hours, give or take.

But as you've read in this thread, to many of us it does mean 2 hours specifically. It certainly would to me. If you mean something other than two hours, say what you mean.

Alice asked Bob. Bob gave her e sort of vague answer: "probably" and "in a couple of hours", and none of that was communicated to the rest of the group.

So, Alice took Bob at his word, firmed up the "probably" in her own mind, and stuck with that. I can see the frustration on her part, but I can also see the frustration of the rest of the group as they feel that it should be clear to Alice that they are getting ready to head out and they feel she should have been ready when they were.

I don't see why it *should* be clear that their getting ready meant the group would leave when they were ready.  If I'm told I have a couple of hours to do something, I expect to have a couple of hours.  I don't see how this can be Alice's fault at all when she was going with the information she had been given. 


Edited because wood and would are two totally different things.

[Lynn2000]

I think when Bob said, "We'll maybe leave in a couple of hours," that was the perfect opportunity for Alice to say, "Oh, so noon, then?" And then Bob could say either "yes" or "Well, maybe earlier if everyone is ready." But I don't think it's solely the fault of one side or the other, I think they both made a lot of assumptions about what other people were doing. I would've interpreted a "couple of hours" from 10am to be noon-ish, vaguely 11:45 to 12:15, but nothing strict. I don't think I would've made the leap to, "Whenever everyone's ready," unless these words were actually said.

But, on the other hand, as I mentioned before I would've been ready to go earlier anyway, because my experience with group outings is that miscommunications are common and I wouldn't want to be the one holding everyone up. I do think that if Alice could've gotten ready more in advance of the deadline, she should have done so, even if she was completely certain of the deadline in her own mind--she left her "getting ready" until the last time slot when she didn't have to, and that might have inadvertently held people up if she couldn't find a shoe, her hair dryer tripped a circuit, the hotel conditioner left her hair tangled, etc..

To me it seems like one of those situations where I wouldn't be able to control what anyone else was doing, but I could definitely make sure that I was ready to walk out the door whenever, so if we were ever late it wouldn't be my fault.

[lowspark]

Alice asked Bob. Bob gave her e sort of vague answer: "probably" and "in a couple of hours", and none of that was communicated to the rest of the group.

So, Alice took Bob at his word, firmed up the "probably" in her own mind, and stuck with that. I can see the frustration on her part, but I can also see the frustration of the rest of the group as they feel that it should be clear to Alice that they are getting ready to head out and they feel she should have been ready when they were.

I don't see why it *should* be clear that their getting ready meant the group would leave when they were ready.  If I'm told I have a couple of hours to do something, I expect to have a couple of hours.  I don't see how this can be Alice's fault at all when she was going with the information she had been given.

What I was saying was not that "it should be clear" but that I could see the point of view of the rest of the group, of them thinking that "it should be clear".

Instead of communicating and sticking with a firm plan, everyone just sort of figured it out on their own. So no surprise that everyone wasn't on the same page.

[Judah]

Alice asked Bob. Bob gave her e sort of vague answer: "probably" and "in a couple of hours", and none of that was communicated to the rest of the group.

So, Alice took Bob at his word, firmed up the "probably" in her own mind, and stuck with that. I can see the frustration on her part, but I can also see the frustration of the rest of the group as they feel that it should be clear to Alice that they are getting ready to head out and they feel she should have been ready when they were.

I don't see why it *should* be clear that their getting ready meant the group would leave when they were ready.  If I'm told I have a couple of hours to do something, I expect to have a couple of hours.  I don't see how this can be Alice's fault at all when she was going with the information she had been given.

What I was saying was not that "it should be clear" but that I could see the point of view of the rest of the group, of them thinking that "it should be clear".

Instead of communicating and sticking with a firm plan, everyone just sort of figured it out on their own. So no surprise that everyone wasn't on the same page.

I do agree with you there.

[TurtleDove]

so if we were ever late it wouldn't be my fault.

I think this is where the difference of perspective lies.  To me, Alice was not late.  She was asked/expected to be ready a half hour early.

[MindsEye]

I think she was being very PA about the whole thing. She wanted specific plans, the group declined, so she made sure to make them feel it the next day.

This is where I am falling. 

So Alice wanted to finish watching her show before doing anything.  Well, that's fine.  BUT.  She couldn't say something like "Her guys, as soon as my show is over I will get ready to take off, I will only need a couple of minutes"?  She didn't give you any kind of update or indication of her status?  Instead she just sat there? 

That sounds... pretty PA. 

OP, I actually think that you are the rest of the group are to be commended for your patience with Alice.  I could easily see another group simply leaving without her at that point. 

[Victim Of Fate]

I think she was being very PA about the whole thing. She wanted specific plans, the group declined, so she made sure to make them feel it the next day.

This is where I am falling. 

So Alice wanted to finish watching her show before doing anything.  Well, that's fine.  BUT.  She couldn't say something like "Her guys, as soon as my show is over I will get ready to take off, I will only need a couple of minutes"?  She didn't give you any kind of update or indication of her status?  Instead she just sat there? 

That sounds... pretty PA. 

OP, I actually think that you are the rest of the group are to be commended for your patience with Alice.  I could easily see another group simply leaving without her at that point.

I think she may have been a bit PA, but at the same time, I think she genuinely did think that everyone was on the same page and that we'd be leaving at 12.

I'm not sure that everyone else getting ready necessarily implied that we were all planning on leaving as soon as we were ready. When I say we were getting ready, I don't mean that we were putting on our coats and packing bags, more that we were getting showered and changed.

[wolfie]

I don't think you can say that. To me a couple of hours doesn't equal 2 hours specifically. To me that phrasing would indicate that we should start getting ready now and we will probably head out as soon as we are all ready. 7 people getting ready should take a couple of hours, give or take.

But as you've read in this thread, to many of us it does mean 2 hours specifically. It certainly wood to me. If you mean something other than two hours, say what you mean.

I was more replying to turtledove's assertion that definite plans had been made. I don't think that Bob and the rest actually thought that definite plans were made. To them things were still fluid - they would leave in a couple of hours. Not exactly two - but around there. If everyone got ready early then great, if something happened and it took longer then bummer but still okay. But I doubt Bob was actually thinking "we will leave at exactly noon". Sounds like that is what Alice heard though.

[Winterlight]

There were actually slightly more than four of us, and Alice was not in a couple with any of the other people there (there was only one couple). There was no issue with competition for bathrooms etc. Alice simply thought that the plan must have been to leave at noon (having been told at 10am that the plan was to leave in two hours), whereas for everyone else, the "two hours" meant "as soon as everyone is ready". I must admit, I thought that we were aiming to leave at noon, I just happened to be ready before then because of when my turn to use the bathroom came up.

Given this, I don't think either side was wrong, necessarily, just unclear. Alice needs a firm timeline and it was kind of wibbly, so she went with the two hours given.

And to me, a couple of hours would mean two hours.
 

[Rohanna]

I personally tend to prefer to be "ready" before I sit down if I am going off to do anything with people- what if I go to get ready and something happens to delay me- I'd rather that happened with spare time. I'm a touch obsessive like that though.