Author Topic: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?  (Read 12320 times)

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Owly

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #75 on: October 14, 2013, 08:04:54 PM »
I dont think anyone was particularly wrong, it was just a miscommunication. It sounds like the group thought they were going to get to leave early, were annoyed to find out they were wrong, and are looking for somewhere to direct their annoyance. And I do understand their annoyance, but that doesn't mean it's any one person's fault.

Though considering that we're talking about all of 15 minutes, and that the group still left within the stated time frame, I think any level of annoyance beyond "oh, darn" is excessive.

sammycat

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #76 on: October 14, 2013, 08:22:50 PM »
I'm sorry, but to me, probably leave in a couple of hours does not mean 'we will leave at noon'.

If I'm sitting around, and three other people are all getting ready, one by one coming and sitting with me, why in the world would I wait until everyone else is finished getting ready before even starting to get ready myself?

She was up and dressed, I could totally see where the other three people thought she was ready to go. The onus is on her to say (to herself or out loud) 'oh! everyone is almost ready, let me get ready too!' I think she was incredibly rude to wait around (tv program or not) until everyone was finished to even start getting ready - no matter how much time it takes her.

Where the other three people were *right there in front of her* showing up ready to go.... I feel that she should have taken the initiative to get herself ready as to not 'hold up' the rest of the group. For everyone to be sitting there, ready, and her just to get up and say 'oh, I guess I'll get ready now' is totally inconsiderate.

I agree totally.

It's actually made even worse by the fact that it wasn't just three people waiting on one person, but was in fact, six.  If (general) you can see that many people around you getting ready, then it should be some sort of clue that (general) you should be too.

blarg314

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #77 on: October 14, 2013, 08:43:54 PM »

I do wonder if it was Alice was being passive aggressive, but I don't particularly blame her if she was.

According to the OP's update, Alice has actually tried to make concrete plans in advance - in which case she would know exactly when they planned to leave. Instead, she had to wait around for hours while her friends slooowly woke up, then said that they planned to leave in a couple of hours, then slooowly spent a couple of hours lounging around and gradually getting ready - followed by getting pissy when Alice wasn't ready to leap out the door the moment the group mind has decided it's finally ready to get going and the relaxed morning of lounging around suddenly turns into "Go, go go!  We must get out and not waste any time. Come on!"

If a group's getting ready routine takes an hour and a half after a relaxed morning of sleeping in, then they don't really have grounds to complain about being held up for a whole fifteen minutes when they haven't actually used their words to indicate that they're getting close to being ready to actually leave, but rather expect that the early riser who is waiting for them will be attentively watching their routine and subtle body language clues to figure out exactly when they want to leave.

My advice to Alice would be to try to make concrete plans, and if they refuse and she wakes up early, then get ready, leave a note saying when she'll be back, and head out for a nice breakfast and a walk.



KenveeB

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #78 on: October 14, 2013, 09:47:52 PM »
If a group's getting ready routine takes an hour and a half after a relaxed morning of sleeping in, then they don't really have grounds to complain about being held up for a whole fifteen minutes when they haven't actually used their words to indicate that they're getting close to being ready to actually leave, but rather expect that the early riser who is waiting for them will be attentively watching their routine and subtle body language clues to figure out exactly when they want to leave.

I do wonder if the group's reaction would've been the same if Alice had been getting ready when everyone else was and just happened to take 15 minutes longer than the others. I read the annoyance being less at the "you held us up for 15 minutes" and more at "you sat around watching tv while we got ready and then want to say you need more time?" It showed a lack of respect for everyone else, and I think that's what the rest of the group was reacting to.

that_one_girl

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #79 on: October 14, 2013, 10:41:57 PM »
 It makes sense that Alice might throw on a random t-shirt and yoga pants to have coffee/read a book/watch TV around the vacation house where only her friends can see her but not want to go out in that outfit. Alice might feel fine without makeup in the confines of the vacation house, but want to look a little more put-together in public.  I think that if it is going to take any longer than 5 minutes to be ready to walk out the door, or if you have more to do than put on your shoes/use the bathroom/grab your purse, you should let someone know. 

miranova

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #80 on: October 14, 2013, 11:09:33 PM »
If a group's getting ready routine takes an hour and a half after a relaxed morning of sleeping in, then they don't really have grounds to complain about being held up for a whole fifteen minutes when they haven't actually used their words to indicate that they're getting close to being ready to actually leave, but rather expect that the early riser who is waiting for them will be attentively watching their routine and subtle body language clues to figure out exactly when they want to leave.

I do wonder if the group's reaction would've been the same if Alice had been getting ready when everyone else was and just happened to take 15 minutes longer than the others. I read the annoyance being less at the "you held us up for 15 minutes" and more at "you sat around watching tv while we got ready and then want to say you need more time?" It showed a lack of respect for everyone else, and I think that's what the rest of the group was reacting to.

Exactly.  You nailed it.  I can "go with the flow" if someone just happens to take a bit longer to get ready.  But sitting around watching TV until everyone else is 100% ready to go before you even get up to start getting ready?  I'd be very annoyed.  I don't buy that she needs to be a mind reader.  When 6 other people are up and actively getting ready, Alice doesn't need explicit instructions to understand that she should probably get up and get ready too.  I also agree that Bob was not giving Alice an exact time, he was giving an estimate of how long he thought it might take for people to get ready.  That wasn't a directive for Alice to wait until 11:30 to start getting ready.  If anything when traveling with a group you should try to be ready earlier rather than later.  It's just inconsiderate to wait until the last possible moment, even when all signs point to people getting ready earlier.

cabbageweevil

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #81 on: October 15, 2013, 05:49:51 AM »
I've always been a stickler for punctuality, so I aim to be early whenever possible. When I was in middle school, one of our teachers told us "Early is on time, on time is late, late is unacceptable."

A bit O/T; but though I, also, am fairly obsessive about punctuality, and thus tend to be early for things -- I've always found that expression intensely annoying.  I gather that it originated with the military -- who have their idiosyncratic ways of doing things, which are suitable for their particular situation.  In most other departments of life, though, the expression has to me connotations of aggressive, bullying super-authoritarianism, which automatically put my back up.  I feel that civilian life can usually -- pretty much by definition -- be a bit more relaxed.

Re the thread in general: I fall in with what seem to be very broadly the majority views -- that communication could have been managed better than it was; and that it was a bit oblivious on Alice's part, to fail to notice the actions of the others, and to adjust or enquire accordingly. I'd reckon that she was being oblivious there, rather than deliberately PA; on the basis of "never ascribe to malice, what can be more easily explained by people 'just not getting it' ".

lowspark

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #82 on: October 15, 2013, 08:49:48 AM »
I think the #1 issue here is that you have a large group vacationing together with no definite plan in place. So everyone just thinks that things will work out. If everyone sort of thinks the same way, that might work. If Alice had not been on the trip, it might have been fine.

But there was at least one person who needed to have a program by which to plan her day: Alice. And because of this the "play it by ear" type of process won't work for this group.

What Bob should have said when Alice asked about leaving time was "when everyone is ready to go, probably in a couple of hours." He may have been implying the "when everyone is ready to go" part but Alice either didn't infer that or she chose to ignore that implied part of the message.

I've been on vacation with people whose style differs from mine. It can be uncomfortable at best, and really miserable at worst. I learned my lesson from this. I won't go on vacation with people I don't know well enough to know if it will work. I also won't go unless someone is in charge. It might be me or it might be someone else. But an itinerary needs to be in place before the trip happens. It doesn't have to be to the minute, and it should be flexible.

But one thing is for sure, the plan for the next day should be communicated to everyone before bedtime each night.

Hmmmmm

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #83 on: October 15, 2013, 09:06:39 AM »
If a group's getting ready routine takes an hour and a half after a relaxed morning of sleeping in, then they don't really have grounds to complain about being held up for a whole fifteen minutes when they haven't actually used their words to indicate that they're getting close to being ready to actually leave, but rather expect that the early riser who is waiting for them will be attentively watching their routine and subtle body language clues to figure out exactly when they want to leave.

I do wonder if the group's reaction would've been the same if Alice had been getting ready when everyone else was and just happened to take 15 minutes longer than the others. I read the annoyance being less at the "you held us up for 15 minutes" and more at "you sat around watching tv while we got ready and then want to say you need more time?" It showed a lack of respect for everyone else, and I think that's what the rest of the group was reacting to.

Exactly.  You nailed it.  I can "go with the flow" if someone just happens to take a bit longer to get ready.  But sitting around watching TV until everyone else is 100% ready to go before you even get up to start getting ready?  I'd be very annoyed.  I don't buy that she needs to be a mind reader.  When 6 other people are up and actively getting ready, Alice doesn't need explicit instructions to understand that she should probably get up and get ready too.  I also agree that Bob was not giving Alice an exact time, he was giving an estimate of how long he thought it might take for people to get ready.  That wasn't a directive for Alice to wait until 11:30 to start getting ready.  If anything when traveling with a group you should try to be ready earlier rather than later.  It's just inconsiderate to wait until the last possible moment, even when all signs point to people getting ready earlier.

If Alice KNEW that the group would leave as soon as everyone was ready. But we don't know that Alice understood that. She might have been a little clueless not picking up on ques from others that they were waiting around for her to finish her show so they could leave. But I don't see her actions as PA. Nor were the others clear that they'd leave earlier than the couple of hours stated. It was also a bad assumption on their part that Alice understood the unspoken plan.

If I tell my DH we'll leave in a couple of hours, he will wait till 1 hour and 55 mins to change shirts and put on shoes. So instead I say "We're leaving as soon as I'm dressed." Then he knows he has to be ready when I am.


TootsNYC

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #84 on: October 15, 2013, 09:13:42 AM »
I sort of don't care what words came out of Bob's mouth.
This is where I'm looking at it.

Quote
If I'm sitting around, and three other people are all getting ready, one by one coming and sitting with me, why in the world would I wait until everyone else is finished getting ready before even starting to get ready myself?

She was up and dressed, I could totally see where the other three people thought she was ready to go. The onus is on her to say (to herself or out loud) 'oh! everyone is almost ready, let me get ready too!' I think she was incredibly rude to wait around (tv program or not) until everyone was finished to even start getting ready - no matter how much time it takes her.

And this:
Quote
I do wonder if the group's reaction would've been the same if Alice had been getting ready when everyone else was and just happened to take 15 minutes longer than the others. I read the annoyance being less at the "you held us up for 15 minutes" and more at "you sat around watching tv while we got ready and then want to say you need more time?" It showed a lack of respect for everyone else, and I think that's what the rest of the group was reacting to.

Also, Alice is *not* the "more structured, less fluid" person in this scenario. A more structured person would have said, "No, WHEN are we leaving?" I don't know what she is--except perhaps truly passive aggressive (in the scientific sense of the word).
   
She used her passivity (lack of action) to control or strike back at the group (how much of that was intentional, I don't know, but that's what she did). Was she annoyed because she was up and they weren't, so she made sure they all waited on her later? Was she annoyed that she was being *told* the plans instead of being asked about her opinions or preferences?

Quote
I've been on vacation with people whose style differs from mine. It can be uncomfortable at best, and really miserable at worst. I learned my lesson from this. I won't go on vacation with people I don't know well enough to know if it will work. I also won't go unless someone is in charge. It might be me or it might be someone else. But an itinerary needs to be in place before the trip happens. It doesn't have to be to the minute, and it should be flexible.

I have as well--in a situation very like this in some ways. I was up, dressed, wanted to go to a late breakfast (i.e., 9pm); my travelmate intended to sleep until 11am.

it truly did stem from the fact that we vacation differently and did not discuss this.

The way it was different is that our "Alice" didn't send false signals or wait around until everyone else was ready to say, "I don't want to move that fast, I want to take me own sweet time, because I'm on vacation."

lowspark

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #85 on: October 15, 2013, 09:30:11 AM »
Oh I agree that she was PA. I said that way back in my first post to this thread. But I still see her as the more structured one since she did try to pin down a schedule the night before.

In fact, reading through your post, Toots, it strikes me that she's not only PA, but she's cutting off her nose to spite her face. She's wasting her vacation time watching reruns on TV simply to exert control over the situation. In her place, I'd have gotten ready way in advance so that when everyone was finally ready, we could get going. Seems to me like noon is already a pretty late start time.

Based on some of the more recent posts, I'm wondering if I missed something. Once everyone (except Alice) was ready, did they then say, "OK let's go" or did they wait till she finished watching her TV show to speak up?

And another question, was she actually ready at or before noon?

Goosey

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #86 on: October 15, 2013, 09:31:15 AM »
Whoa, it never would have occured to me that she was being PA. After all, the OP herself said she was surprised that they were leaving at that time. Why would it be any different for Alice?

Leafy

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #87 on: October 15, 2013, 09:35:58 AM »
I'm sorry, but to me, probably leave in a couple of hours does not mean 'we will leave at noon'.

If I'm sitting around, and three other people are all getting ready, one by one coming and sitting with me, why in the world would I wait until everyone else is finished getting ready before even starting to get ready myself?

She was up and dressed, I could totally see where the other three people thought she was ready to go. The onus is on her to say (to herself or out loud) 'oh! everyone is almost ready, let me get ready too!' I think she was incredibly rude to wait around (tv program or not) until everyone was finished to even start getting ready - no matter how much time it takes her.

Why doesn't it? Isn't that literally what it means?

Well for me, once you add in the word "probably" (or "about" or "around") you are saying in no way shape or form should the next few words be taken as absolute literal. Plus the very nature of the wording "a couple of hours" is casual and vague, whereas "noon" is specific, so answering a question is a casual way indicates its a loose time frame not a specific time frame.


All you statements are general you.

But the point that I was making is that "a couple of hours" literally means "two hours". I mean, "a couple" isn't the same as "a few" or "several", which don't have specific values. A couple is two.

If Bob had said "around two hours" it would mean the same thing, so I don't think it was fair for us to assume that Alice would realise that he didn't mean some time close to two hours from when he said it. On the other hand, it was really frustrating that she wasn't ready, because we could have left right there and then.

"A couple" might literally mean "two" but once the qualifier "probably" is put in the sentence it can no longer mean "exactly two". The usage of "probably a couple" means "its likely to be two hours but it might not be, it might more or it might be less 'a couple' is a mid-range guesstimate".

Not to mention Bob was simply guessing on behalf of 6 other people, he wasn't actually an authority or in charge, right? And Alice knew that, that he was simply assuming a probable but not exact time frame, right? So for her to take his word, and his word alone, as the absolute exact departure time was not very logical or fair.

The bolded above is what has been bothering me. Alice asked Bob and he made a guess (based on the info given, it doesn't sound like he discussed it with everyone else) about when everyone might be ready to go. I don't see why Bob should have been responsible for giving Alice a specific time.

Group vacations that I have been on, we have always left earlier than planned if everyone is ready earlier. If I was in a group and 6 out of 7 people were ready to go and only one person (who had over 90 minutes to get ready) had not gotten ready, I would be annoyed with that person.

Another Sarah

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #88 on: October 15, 2013, 09:45:02 AM »
I agree with Goosey, nothing about this strikes me as PA and I think Alice is starting to take an unnecessary bashing.

I still think that a group that did not specify a leaving time cannot be annoyed that someone isn't ready to leave when they are - however I also stand by my point that it would've been sensible, if not good manners, to be ready to leave early rather than later.

wolfie

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #89 on: October 15, 2013, 10:02:18 AM »
To my way of thinking, Wolfie is saying that if it took *everyone* longer to get ready, rather than just one person. As in, it just took longer to get everyone through the shower, eaten breakfast, cleaned up etc. Not that they should all wait as long as it took for one person to finish watching whatever they wanted on TV. If Alice had wanted to watch TV for another two hours, I doubt anyone would think that 'having fluid plans' meant that they should all stay in until Alice's reruns were finished.

yes! that is it! I just couldn't think of a way to word this! If Alice took 30 minutes longer to get ready it wouldn't have bothered me cause we didn't have a set time to leave anyway. But the fact that she waited until everyone else is ready before even beginning to get ready that would have bothered me. In case A she just takes longer so no big deal, in case B we could have been on the road but Alice decided to hold everyone else up by not bothering to get ready until the very last minute.