Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?

[lowspark]

What makes me think "PA" is the following:

1, Alice tried to get a set time the night before. From OP: "Alice had been particularly keen to make firm plans, but everyone else had been quite non-committal"
2. She had all morning to get ready and decided to wait till the very last minute to do so.
3. When she asked Bob when they were leaving, she took his answer of "probably" and "a couple of hours" as literally to the minute.
4. She's on vacation with a group. Everyone in that group is dressed and ready to leave except for her. And yet, she sits there and watches reruns on TV instead of getting going.

What could possibly be her motivation for doing so except to inplicitly insist that they stick to the Noon departure time which clearly was soft ("probably") and was not communicated to everyone there?

And to be honest, even if the departure time was a pre-set time of noon, it's still rude to wait till the last minute to get ready. This is a group of several people, not just two or three. It's hard to predict how long everyone will take to get ready. It's best to get yourself ready as soon as the opportunity arises. If the bathroom is free when you get up, that's the time to take your shower, not 15 minutes before leaving time, unless that is actually the first time the bathroom is free.

[VorFemme]

I think the #1 issue here is that you have a large group vacationing together with no definite plan in place. So everyone just thinks that things will work out. If everyone sort of thinks the same way, that might work. If Alice had not been on the trip, it might have been fine.

***edited for length***

But one thing is for sure, the plan for the next day should be communicated to everyone before bedtime each night.

I love my husband.  But we have two different "styles".  Once I figured this out, it still has taken a while to learn how to phrase it so that he understands what I mean instead of thinking that I am giving general guidelines.

For example, he drives (in Houston traffic) for his commute - for less than ten minutes to go about three miles.  He bought our house near where he was going to be working to make sure that he had a short commute - average in the area is supposed to be closer to 45 minutes. So if he is getting ready to go anywhere, he plans to leave minimal time for the drive.  If it is "twenty minutes or so away" - he wants to leave just barely in time to get there, twenty minutes with maybe a minute or two of "cushion".

I don't work outside the home, but I'm the one who has gotten stuck in traffic due to an overturned semi (18 wheeler with a trailer making a long haul of goods from one location to another) for an hour or more.  I want to leave with at least five minutes "cushion" for a twenty minute drive and MORE for longer drives (maybe not the same 25% cushion - but more than two minutes early!).  But when I mention that we need to leave early - I get told that things won't go that bad this time....

When we meet people on vacation - I tend to over plan and possibly over communicate - but at least no one has been able to complain about "why didn't you TELL me that"? 

And the ILs canceled plans to go on vacation a while back because they couldn't bring their dog when VorGuy was insisting that no one would THINK of bringing their dog on a two or three day drive.   After the first trip where the dog got sick on my carpet and they still brought the dog on a second trip to our HOUSE (six or so hour drive) - I made sure to check on pet policies at our destination & told them what they were & the local kennel locations & prices months ahead of time. 

[TurtleDove]

1, Alice tried to get a set time the night before. From OP: "Alice had been particularly keen to make firm plans, but everyone else had been quite non-committal"

This is why I just can't understand why the group was upset it had to "wait" for Alice.  The group didn't care when they left.  The group was non-committal.

[wolfie]

1, Alice tried to get a set time the night before. From OP: "Alice had been particularly keen to make firm plans, but everyone else had been quite non-committal"

This is why I just can't understand why the group was upset it had to "wait" for Alice.  The group didn't care when they left.  The group was non-committal.

There is a big difference between "it takes Alive 20 minutes longer to get ready then anyone else" and "Alice doesn't bother starting to get ready until everyone else is ready". The first is fluid planning and the way it goes. The second makes it seem like Alice is thumbing her nose at the group.

[Goosey]

What makes me think "PA" is the following:

1, Alice tried to get a set time the night before. From OP: "Alice had been particularly keen to make firm plans, but everyone else had been quite non-committal" So, the others didn't care until they wanted to go and then they had to go RIGHT THEN? I don't understand how her asking for a schedule is an indicator that she would be manipulative and PA.
2. She had all morning to get ready and decided to wait till the very last minute to do so. She wasn't aware it was last minute. As far as the OP and Alice were concerned, she still had time
3. When she asked Bob when they were leaving, she took his answer of "probably" and "a couple of hours" as literally to the minute. I think people are going with the "I would have understood exactly what he meant, so she should have, too!" arguement. Alice didn't know they were going when everyone was ready - neither did the OP. She thought she had a couple hours to relax.
4. She's on vacation with a group. Everyone in that group is dressed and ready to leave except for her. And yet, she sits there and watches reruns on TV instead of getting going. People were on the couch with her. She was relaxing and hanging out, thinking she had time.

What could possibly be her motivation for doing so except to inplicitly insist that they stick to the Noon departure time which clearly was soft ("probably") and was not communicated to everyone there? Because that's what she understood the plan to be. She was relaxing, hanging out. It's not like she was told "we're going to leave now!" and she said "one more episode!" As soon as she understood what was going on, she rushed to get ready.

And to be honest, even if the departure time was a pre-set time of noon, it's still rude to wait till the last minute to get ready. This is a group of several people, not just two or three. It's hard to predict how long everyone will take to get ready. It's best to get yourself ready as soon as the opportunity arises. If the bathroom is free when you get up, that's the time to take your shower, not 15 minutes before leaving time, unless that is actually the first time the bathroom is free.

I do agree it's best, logistically, to get ready as soon as you can. But, I don't think she was being manipulative or PA - I think she just didn't understand what was going on (the OP didn't either) and wasn't thinking too well. I also don't think that 15 minutes-half an hour is anything to get worried about and griping at Alice for it was rude too. They could have just said, "Hey, just for future reference, we should all get ready as early as possible."

[lowspark]

To reply to Goosey, my list was to be taken as a whole. In other words, it wasn't just each of those things that points to PA for me, it was the combination of all of them together. Based on my life experience, the combination of everyone's actions, individally (including Alice) and as a collective group, points to Alice being PA. And that is not to say that the rest of the group is blameless.

I can understand the other point of view, I just don't agree with it. And I understand not everyone agrees with my take on it either. That's ok.

[Winterlight]

I agree with Goosey, nothing about this strikes me as PA and I think Alice is starting to take an unnecessary bashing.

I still think that a group that did not specify a leaving time cannot be annoyed that someone isn't ready to leave when they are - however I also stand by my point that it would've been sensible, if not good manners, to be ready to leave early rather than later.

Agreed. I'd have gotten ready early, but that's me. A group that wants to be loosey-goosey about when they leave isn't really in a position to complain when the person who tried to set a time sticks to what they were given.

[Victim Of Fate]

Wow, lots more responses!

I feel I should make a few extra points of clarification, particularly in defence of Alice, who is - you know - one of my best friends!

1) I don't think Alice was being genuinely PA, which is to say I don't think she was trying to "punish" the rest of the group or set her own agenda. However, I do think that she was probably a little annoyed that nobody else seemed to be bothered about making a plan, and even when she noticed people were getting ready, she might have decided that she wasn't going to change her plans unless we told her that we had a start time in mind. However, it's equally possible that she thought that we were just getting ready for the day. As I said, we weren't standing there with coats and boots, we were for the most part lounging around on the sofa too.

2) Bob would definitely not have used "probably a couple of hours" to mean anything other than "probably two hours", but I think he probably meant to imply "because that's my guess for how long it will take us all to get ready".

3) Bob and Alice were the drivers, if that makes a difference. And Bob tends to be the de facto organiser on trips like this, which is why his voice would carry a little authority.

What I was interested in is whether or not Alice should have got up and ready when she noticed that other people were likely to be ready early, and it seems that most people do think that. However, should we have explained to Alice that we were planning on leaving as soon as everyone was ready, or do you think we were justified in letting our actions do the talking, so to speak?

[Dorrie78]

Wow, lots more responses!

I feel I should make a few extra points of clarification, particularly in defence of Alice, who is - you know - one of my best friends!

1) I don't think Alice was being genuinely PA, which is to say I don't think she was trying to "punish" the rest of the group or set her own agenda. However, I do think that she was probably a little annoyed that nobody else seemed to be bothered about making a plan, and even when she noticed people were getting ready, she might have decided that she wasn't going to change her plans unless we told her that we had a start time in mind. However, it's equally possible that she thought that we were just getting ready for the day. As I said, we weren't standing there with coats and boots, we were for the most part lounging around on the sofa too.

2) Bob would definitely not have used "probably a couple of hours" to mean anything other than "probably two hours", but I think he probably meant to imply "because that's my guess for how long it will take us all to get ready".

3) Bob and Alice were the drivers, if that makes a difference. And Bob tends to be the de facto organiser on trips like this, which is why his voice would carry a little authority.

What I was interested in is whether or not Alice should have got up and ready when she noticed that other people were likely to be ready early, and it seems that most people do think that. However, should we have explained to Alice that we were planning on leaving as soon as everyone was ready, or do you think we were justified in letting our actions do the talking, so to speak?

In response to your first point, I think that the first possibility you list for why Alice did what she did is the very definition of passive aggressive. I'm with the others on this thread who are saying that once she saw people getting ready for the day, she should have started doing it herself. So yes, I do think she should have done that, but since she didn't I think that that answers your final question - you should have told her that you were leaving as soon as everyone is ready, because clearly she isn't paying attention to your actions - or at least she isn't reacting to your actions in a rational, non-PA way.

This whole situation would annoy me tremendously - all parts of it. That no one will make a definitive plan AND that the one person who wants a definitive plan waits until everyone is ready to go to start getting ready.

[Hmmmmm]

Wow, lots more responses!

I feel I should make a few extra points of clarification, particularly in defence of Alice, who is - you know - one of my best friends!

1) I don't think Alice was being genuinely PA, which is to say I don't think she was trying to "punish" the rest of the group or set her own agenda. However, I do think that she was probably a little annoyed that nobody else seemed to be bothered about making a plan, and even when she noticed people were getting ready, she might have decided that she wasn't going to change her plans unless we told her that we had a start time in mind. However, it's equally possible that she thought that we were just getting ready for the day. As I said, we weren't standing there with coats and boots, we were for the most part lounging around on the sofa too.

2) Bob would definitely not have used "probably a couple of hours" to mean anything other than "probably two hours", but I think he probably meant to imply "because that's my guess for how long it will take us all to get ready".

3) Bob and Alice were the drivers, if that makes a difference. And Bob tends to be the de facto organiser on trips like this, which is why his voice would carry a little authority.

What I was interested in is whether or not Alice should have got up and ready when she noticed that other people were likely to be ready early, and it seems that most people do think that. However, should we have explained to Alice that we were planning on leaving as soon as everyone was ready, or do you think we were justified in letting our actions do the talking, so to speak?

With a group that size, I don't believe in letting your actions to the talking. Everyone inteprets actions differently. You guys all misinterpreted Alice's actions... up, dressed, watching TV, must be ready to go...so why should we assume Alice is any better in figuring out what other's actions mean when she was told 2 hours. If she hadn't been told a couple of hours but everyone else was getting up and dressed, then I think she should have clarified the plans.

[blarg314]

However, should we have explained to Alice that we were planning on leaving as soon as everyone was ready, or do you think we were justified in letting our actions do the talking, so to speak?

I think that's the key. If you wanted the definite plans to be "as soon as the rest of us are ready to leave - probably in a couple of hours but less if we get ready sooner" then you should have said that directly, rather than expecting Alice to pick up on the transition between lounging around the hotel room while slowly getting ready and let's leave right now - 15 minute from now is not acceptable. Alternatively, the rest of you  could have picked up on the fact that Alice was almost, but not quite, ready, and given her a 15 minute warning that the rest of you were finally ready to go.

15 minutes for the final stage of getting ready (going to the washroom, putting on makeup, getting your purse) is really not that long compared to the couple of hours it took for everyone else to get ready to go. I would assume that if the mode were relaxed, lounging around the hotel room while slowly getting organized for the day (rather than getting ready quickly so you can get going), than an extra 15 minutes to finish watching a TV show would not be a problem.

[MariaE]

I definitely don't think Alice was PA. Speaking from my own experience she might not have realized that people were getting ready to go, rather than just getting dressed. My thought process in her shoes would be "Excellent, people are coming to watch TV with me, how cozy *Looks at watch* Cool, I still have time, I can finish this episode and still be ready in plenty of time."

So clueless at worst. Definitely neither rude nor PA. Don't think the others were rude either though, depending on how they expressed their frustration.

[Winterlight]

I definitely don't think Alice was PA. Speaking from my own experience she might not have realized that people were getting ready to go, rather than just getting dressed. My thought process in her shoes would be "Excellent, people are coming to watch TV with me, how cozy *Looks at watch* Cool, I still have time, I can finish this episode and still be ready in plenty of time."

So clueless at worst. Definitely neither rude nor PA. Don't think the others were rude either though, depending on how they expressed their frustration.

Agreed.

[Judah]

... should we have explained to Alice that we were planning on leaving as soon as everyone was ready, or do you think we were justified in letting our actions do the talking, so to speak?

I don't think it's ever okay to expect someone to read your mind. If you want something understood, use words. Clear, non-ambiguous words.

[TurtleDove]

... should we have explained to Alice that we were planning on leaving as soon as everyone was ready, or do you think we were justified in letting our actions do the talking, so to speak?

I don't think it's ever okay to expect someone to read your mind. If you want something understood, use words. Clear, non-ambiguous words.

This.  Also, if the plan truly was to leave when "everyone" was ready, the group should have happily waitied until everyone - including Alice - was ready.  We don't know why everyone else needed several hours to get ready, so I don't see why people are questioning why Alice wanted to finish watching her show, especially when it seemed others in the group were watching it with her.  If there was a set time prior to noon that people wanted Alice ready, I get the sense she absolutely would have been.  But there wasn't.  Just whenever.