Author Topic: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?  (Read 13312 times)

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Lynn2000

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #105 on: October 15, 2013, 04:22:35 PM »
With a group that size, I don't believe in letting your actions to the talking. Everyone inteprets actions differently. You guys all misinterpreted Alice's actions... up, dressed, watching TV, must be ready to go...so why should we assume Alice is any better in figuring out what other's actions mean when she was told 2 hours. If she hadn't been told a couple of hours but everyone else was getting up and dressed, then I think she should have clarified the plans.

IMO, this sums up the entire situation. :)
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CakeEater

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #106 on: October 15, 2013, 04:54:54 PM »
... should we have explained to Alice that we were planning on leaving as soon as everyone was ready, or do you think we were justified in letting our actions do the talking, so to speak?

I don't think it's ever okay to expect someone to read your mind. If you want something understood, use words. Clear, non-ambiguous words.

This.  Also, if the plan truly was to leave when "everyone" was ready, the group should have happily waitied until everyone - including Alice - was ready.  We don't know why everyone else needed several hours to get ready, so I don't see why people are questioning why Alice wanted to finish watching her show, especially when it seemed others in the group were watching it with her.  If there was a set time prior to noon that people wanted Alice ready, I get the sense she absolutely would have been.  But there wasn't.  Just whenever.

But how far does this go? Should 6 people have waited until Alice had painted her toenails, finished reading her book, prepared and eaten a 4 course lunch and not left the house until 3 o'clock? Clearly that's ridiculous. The idea that there's no rush but we'll go when everyone's ready implies that everyone should *get* ready, just not at breakneck speed, like they might have to if they needed to leave the house at 7.30am.

And as others have said, it's polite to make sure, when you're travelling with a large group, to get yourself ready sooner rather than later, just so you don't hold everyone up waiting for you.

I think there was a mis-communication here, but I don't think that it's necessary to use clear, unambiguous words to tell 7 adults that they should get ready to leave the house as soon as they can when the plan is to leave the house. That's just common sense.

TurtleDove

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #107 on: October 15, 2013, 05:26:53 PM »
I think there was a mis-communication here, but I don't think that it's necessary to use clear, unambiguous words to tell 7 adults that they should get ready to leave the house as soon as they can when the plan is to leave the house. That's just common sense.

I think this is why it is best to have a set time for when you expect people to be ready.  "As soon as they can" is so vague as to be without real meaning.  If the house is on fire, I can be ready to leave in less than a second.  If it's a gala event, I might give myself an hour to play around with my hair and makeup (for what it's worth, that time is generally wasted :) ).  With people waking up at different times with different agendas and no real push to get out the door, "as soon as you can" would be meaningless to me.  Well, that, and I would have pushed for a set time becuase otherwise I would have slept in and gotten a good workout in because "as soon as you can be ready" for me includes 1.5 hours of working out.  I guess my overall point is that we are not all going to agree on what is common sense. To me, common sense would have been to say, "we want to leave by 11:30 a.m." if that is what people wanted to do.

TootsNYC

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #108 on: October 15, 2013, 05:52:00 PM »
Wow, lots more responses!


1) I don't think Alice was being genuinely PA, which is to say I don't think she was trying to "punish" the rest of the group or set her own agenda. However, I do think that she was probably a little annoyed that nobody else seemed to be bothered about making a plan, and even when she noticed people were getting ready, she might have decided that she wasn't going to change her plans unless we told her that we had a start time in mind. However, it's equally possible that she thought that we were just getting ready for the day. As I said, we weren't standing there with coats and boots, we were for the most part lounging around on the sofa too.


She may not have been being *intentionally* PA, but the bolded *is* the classic, textbook definition of passive aggressive.

Passive aggression is not always conscious, as well.

CakeEater

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #109 on: October 15, 2013, 10:43:15 PM »
I think there was a mis-communication here, but I don't think that it's necessary to use clear, unambiguous words to tell 7 adults that they should get ready to leave the house as soon as they can when the plan is to leave the house. That's just common sense.

I think this is why it is best to have a set time for when you expect people to be ready.  "As soon as they can" is so vague as to be without real meaning.  If the house is on fire, I can be ready to leave in less than a second.  If it's a gala event, I might give myself an hour to play around with my hair and makeup (for what it's worth, that time is generally wasted :) ).  With people waking up at different times with different agendas and no real push to get out the door, "as soon as you can" would be meaningless to me.  Well, that, and I would have pushed for a set time becuase otherwise I would have slept in and gotten a good workout in because "as soon as you can be ready" for me includes 1.5 hours of working out.  I guess my overall point is that we are not all going to agree on what is common sense. To me, common sense would have been to say, "we want to leave by 11:30 a.m." if that is what people wanted to do.

Well yes, I would prefer that as well, being a scheduler myself.

Assuming there's no extra hour and a half required in my getting ready schedule, though, I would think most people could wake, eat breakfast, shower, dress, pack a day pack for sightseeing etc in about an hour. Seven people would take 'a couple of hours' as Bob suggested.

But if getting ready to you implies an extra 1 1/2 hours to do anything that you know the others won't be doing, then I might push for a more exact time. I'd ask the others what time they were planning to be awake, and I'd get up and hour and a half before them. A ballpark figure would be enough, I'd have thought. It would be my responsibility to make sure I was ready at about the same time as everyone else.

In any case, that wasn't the case here. Alice wasn't doing any 'getting ready' - she didn't have anything that required extra time than the others.


Hmmmmm

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #110 on: October 16, 2013, 09:37:20 AM »
... should we have explained to Alice that we were planning on leaving as soon as everyone was ready, or do you think we were justified in letting our actions do the talking, so to speak?

I don't think it's ever okay to expect someone to read your mind. If you want something understood, use words. Clear, non-ambiguous words.

This.  Also, if the plan truly was to leave when "everyone" was ready, the group should have happily waitied until everyone - including Alice - was ready.  We don't know why everyone else needed several hours to get ready, so I don't see why people are questioning why Alice wanted to finish watching her show, especially when it seemed others in the group were watching it with her.  If there was a set time prior to noon that people wanted Alice ready, I get the sense she absolutely would have been.  But there wasn't.  Just whenever.

But how far does this go? Should 6 people have waited until Alice had painted her toenails, finished reading her book, prepared and eaten a 4 course lunch and not left the house until 3 o'clock? Clearly that's ridiculous. The idea that there's no rush but we'll go when everyone's ready implies that everyone should *get* ready, just not at breakneck speed, like they might have to if they needed to leave the house at 7.30am.

And as others have said, it's polite to make sure, when you're travelling with a large group, to get yourself ready sooner rather than later, just so you don't hold everyone up waiting for you.

I think there was a mis-communication here, but I don't think that it's necessary to use clear, unambiguous words to tell 7 adults that they should get ready to leave the house as soon as they can when the plan is to leave the house. That's just common sense.

But it was never said that "we will go when everyone is ready."  It was said in a couple of hours.

AnnaJ

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #111 on: October 16, 2013, 12:13:21 PM »
Probably because I've done this myself (not the people waiting part), I was thinking that maybe Alice got mostly ready - shower, hair dried/styled, sorted out her clothes - before everyone else got up, then decided to have some down time.  When everyone else was getting ready she didn't worry about it since a) Bob had indicated it would be a couple of hours before they left, and b) she know it would only take her 15 minute to finish up (make-up, outside clothes, whatever) so she waited while everyone else showered, etc. 

The fact that, by Bob's original statement, there were 30 minutes left and she was ready in 15 minutes - from the OP's update - I go with poor communication.  OP, was it even possible for that many people to get ready at the same time, given bathroom/dressing space?

wolfie

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #112 on: October 16, 2013, 12:14:59 PM »
I am wondering what happened the next day? Did you have more clear cut communications? Set an actual leave time? Basically - did you guys work this out?

CakeEater

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #113 on: October 17, 2013, 05:25:33 AM »
... should we have explained to Alice that we were planning on leaving as soon as everyone was ready, or do you think we were justified in letting our actions do the talking, so to speak?

I don't think it's ever okay to expect someone to read your mind. If you want something understood, use words. Clear, non-ambiguous words.

This.  Also, if the plan truly was to leave when "everyone" was ready, the group should have happily waitied until everyone - including Alice - was ready.  We don't know why everyone else needed several hours to get ready, so I don't see why people are questioning why Alice wanted to finish watching her show, especially when it seemed others in the group were watching it with her.  If there was a set time prior to noon that people wanted Alice ready, I get the sense she absolutely would have been.  But there wasn't.  Just whenever.

But how far does this go? Should 6 people have waited until Alice had painted her toenails, finished reading her book, prepared and eaten a 4 course lunch and not left the house until 3 o'clock? Clearly that's ridiculous. The idea that there's no rush but we'll go when everyone's ready implies that everyone should *get* ready, just not at breakneck speed, like they might have to if they needed to leave the house at 7.30am.

And as others have said, it's polite to make sure, when you're travelling with a large group, to get yourself ready sooner rather than later, just so you don't hold everyone up waiting for you.

I think there was a mis-communication here, but I don't think that it's necessary to use clear, unambiguous words to tell 7 adults that they should get ready to leave the house as soon as they can when the plan is to leave the house. That's just common sense.

But it was never said that "we will go when everyone is ready."  It was said in a couple of hours.

I think the 'because that's how long I anticipate it will take everyone to get ready' part at the end of Bob's sentence was implied.

Hmmmmm

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #114 on: October 17, 2013, 09:37:00 AM »
... should we have explained to Alice that we were planning on leaving as soon as everyone was ready, or do you think we were justified in letting our actions do the talking, so to speak?

I don't think it's ever okay to expect someone to read your mind. If you want something understood, use words. Clear, non-ambiguous words.

This.  Also, if the plan truly was to leave when "everyone" was ready, the group should have happily waitied until everyone - including Alice - was ready.  We don't know why everyone else needed several hours to get ready, so I don't see why people are questioning why Alice wanted to finish watching her show, especially when it seemed others in the group were watching it with her.  If there was a set time prior to noon that people wanted Alice ready, I get the sense she absolutely would have been.  But there wasn't.  Just whenever.

But how far does this go? Should 6 people have waited until Alice had painted her toenails, finished reading her book, prepared and eaten a 4 course lunch and not left the house until 3 o'clock? Clearly that's ridiculous. The idea that there's no rush but we'll go when everyone's ready implies that everyone should *get* ready, just not at breakneck speed, like they might have to if they needed to leave the house at 7.30am.

And as others have said, it's polite to make sure, when you're travelling with a large group, to get yourself ready sooner rather than later, just so you don't hold everyone up waiting for you.

I think there was a mis-communication here, but I don't think that it's necessary to use clear, unambiguous words to tell 7 adults that they should get ready to leave the house as soon as they can when the plan is to leave the house. That's just common sense.

But it was never said that "we will go when everyone is ready."  It was said in a couple of hours.

I think the 'because that's how long I anticipate it will take everyone to get ready' part at the end of Bob's sentence was implied.

I don't think it was implied at all. His reason for saying a couple of hours could be based on timing of getting to the place.
Such as.... if we leave in a couple of hours, we'll get there around 1 when the morning crowd is leaving for lunch, spend a few hours, then stop at that cool beach bar for an afternoon drink.

Victim Of Fate

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #115 on: October 17, 2013, 10:25:33 AM »
I am wondering what happened the next day? Did you have more clear cut communications? Set an actual leave time? Basically - did you guys work this out?

That was really the only day that we had an issue like this, and I think both sides were probably a bit more flexible after that. But what is interesting is that a few weeks later this got brought up, which is really what compelled me to see what people here thought.

Basically, at a party, a few of the people from the holiday made a joke about Alice needing to get ready first before we did something at the party (I would not call this rude in and of itself, as we are all very close friends). Alice, who sensed that we might have made this joke before (which we had a couple of times), then responded that she had been "100% in the right".

She basically said that she had been told a time to get ready by, met that time, but was accused of being late because we all just decided to leave once we were ready. When someone asked her if she had noticed other people getting ready, she said "yes, but presumably you would have had a shower and got dressed even if we weren't going anywhere. I thought that's what you were doing." She also said that if we'd told her that we were going ASAP, she wouldn't have made the decision to watch TV, but that we didn't say that.

That's why I do have a lot of sympathy for her in this situation. Like I said, I thought the plan was to leave at 12. I think that Bob meant "when everyone's ready" in hindsight, but I didn't infer that at the time. I thought Alice was a bit off for just sitting there watching TV while everyone else was getting ready, but from her claimed point of view, she was enjoying a TV show, safe in the knowledge that she had plenty of time at the end, and all of a sudden people were suggesting we leave right away.

There may have been some passive aggressiveness on her part, as I suspect that she may have suspected that we might want to leave when the show was over and she didn't tell us that she wouldn't be able to meet that timetable. Once other people had started watching as well, I can see why she wouldn't really want to get up halfway through. My guess is that she didn't want to ask outright and risk missing the end of the show if we said that we wanted to leave ASAP. But, that's only a suspicion on my part, and it may well be that she thought she had time - and this is certainly what her defence was.

To answer an earlier question, there were three bathrooms and five bedrooms, so while we couldn't all get ready simultaneously, there was more than enough time and space for us to get ready in an hour and a half.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 12:29:05 PM by Victim Of Fate »

KenveeB

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #116 on: October 17, 2013, 10:49:34 AM »
She took a "probably" as gospel and intentionally ignored all evidence to the contrary. I don't think her mistake deserved more than mild annoyance, but it was definitely HER mistake. She only makes herself look worse by insisting now she was "100% right."

Victim Of Fate

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #117 on: October 17, 2013, 12:27:54 PM »
She took a "probably" as gospel and intentionally ignored all evidence to the contrary. I don't think her mistake deserved more than mild annoyance, but it was definitely HER mistake. She only makes herself look worse by insisting now she was "100% right."

Right, first of all, I should point out that her claim of being "100% in the right" was said with a smile, and that is how we talk to one another. I say this because it probably sounds ruder than it was in plain text.

But in what sense was it "her" mistake? I mean, Bob did say it would be a couple of hours, and then it wasn't a couple of hours.

My reason for posting this was more to see if people thought that she should have changed her behaviour to account for everyone else or if we should have been more explicit about the fact that we were planning on leaving as soon as possible (and I know that answer to that is "both", but who was the onus on?). But is was certainly the case that the expectation was that we'd leave at 12, and nobody outright said it could be earlier depending on when people were ready - we all just assumed that and she didn't.

wolfie

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #118 on: October 17, 2013, 12:33:10 PM »
I guess for me I always assume we would leave earlier if everyone is ready because what's the point of just sitting around for 30 min just to meet an arbitrary time when everyone is good to go now. Unless it is an appointment where you have to be there at say 3:00 so it's either sit here or sit there - in which case sit here is preferable. But it doesn't sound like that was the case.

Victim Of Fate

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #119 on: October 17, 2013, 12:54:22 PM »
I guess for me I always assume we would leave earlier if everyone is ready because what's the point of just sitting around for 30 min just to meet an arbitrary time when everyone is good to go now. Unless it is an appointment where you have to be there at say 3:00 so it's either sit here or sit there - in which case sit here is preferable. But it doesn't sound like that was the case.

Well, in fairness, we were on vacation. Alice's point was that she wanted to relax, so upon being told a time (and I think it's fair to say that a time was pretty much stated, even if Bob only meant it as a guideline), she wanted to spend the next two hours in a way that was enjoyable for her and met the timings which she understood to have been set.