Author Topic: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?  (Read 12998 times)

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ladyknight1

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #120 on: October 17, 2013, 01:03:17 PM »
I think that the flexible group's dependence on non-verbal communication to signal Alice that the time they would leave was approaching was ambiguous at best. Communication is clearly flawed in this situation. Alice attempted to get clarity, and was dismissed.

I don't think Alice was PA in any way.

VorFemme

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #121 on: October 17, 2013, 01:19:48 PM »
There are people who take the attitude that *they* only need a few minutes to get ready, so they wait until the last possible minute to get ready.  If it takes them five extra minutes loner to get ready than they plan, it may be that they leave a minute or two late *or* only a minute early.

There are people who want to be ready early so they can relax a little while before leaving - or wait on those who take a little longer.  They may be married to someone in the first group, in my experience.

Then there are those who don't seem to grasp that there is a schedule, whether written, spoken, or implied unless there is someone screaming at them to hurry up, we should have either left already or we should already be there.  At least Alice wasn't in that group...

When we go with a group, it is nice to know which types are in the group...but it isn't always possible to tell if someone who is punctual in work situations takes a more relaxed attitude in social ones...or the other way round, if they want to cram as much fun into their day as possible!
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citadelle

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #122 on: October 17, 2013, 01:52:22 PM »
It seems clear from the clarifications provided that Alice knew that folks were getting ready to go, but decided that she was going to continue watching television until she was specifically told otherwise, or until the "couple hours" had passed. It seems like a deliberate misreading on her part in order to make a point, and that *is* passive aggressive. That is where she's at fault in my opinion, in sticking obtusely to the "letter of the law" rather than acting on what was obvious.

KenveeB

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #123 on: October 17, 2013, 02:12:40 PM »
She took a "probably" as gospel and intentionally ignored all evidence to the contrary. I don't think her mistake deserved more than mild annoyance, but it was definitely HER mistake. She only makes herself look worse by insisting now she was "100% right."

Right, first of all, I should point out that her claim of being "100% in the right" was said with a smile, and that is how we talk to one another. I say this because it probably sounds ruder than it was in plain text.

But in what sense was it "her" mistake? I mean, Bob did say it would be a couple of hours, and then it wasn't a couple of hours.

My reason for posting this was more to see if people thought that she should have changed her behaviour to account for everyone else or if we should have been more explicit about the fact that we were planning on leaving as soon as possible (and I know that answer to that is "both", but who was the onus on?). But is was certainly the case that the expectation was that we'd leave at 12, and nobody outright said it could be earlier depending on when people were ready - we all just assumed that and she didn't.

As I said, her mistake was taking a "probably" as the gospel truth and ignoring what was actually happening. Leaving aside the question of whether she should've taken Bob's word alone as the group decision, Bob didn't give a definite time. If he'd said "we're leaving at noon," then you could take that as "we're leaving as noon." But "probably a couple of hours" is vague on both the actual amount of time and whether it's even a definite decision. Then she decided to stick firm to that indefinite decision even when everyone else was obviously getting ready around her and not saying a word about not actually being ready. That was a mistake, and it was 100% hers. The rest of the group was also mistaken about her actually being ready, but I don't think that was 100% the group's because it was based off her own communication that she was ready by looking ready and sitting around watching reruns while everyone else was getting ready. So mistakes on both parts, but only one that I think was entirely the one person's fault.

wyliefool

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #124 on: October 23, 2013, 12:58:15 PM »
I'M on team Alice, mainly because ppl who can't be bothered making plans, and dilly dally around, then suddenly are all 'OK it's time to leave nownownowchopchop !! get on my Very Last Nerve.

blarg314

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #125 on: October 23, 2013, 09:16:58 PM »
I'M on team Alice, mainly because ppl who can't be bothered making plans, and dilly dally around, then suddenly are all 'OK it's time to leave nownownowchopchop !! get on my Very Last Nerve.

That's how I feel. I get the impression that the rest of the group had no problem taking ages to get ready in a relaxed fashion while Alice was waiting, but as soon as they were ready they got snotty about an extra fifteen minutes.

If I were Alice, I'd seriously consider travelling with other people.

secretrebel

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #126 on: October 24, 2013, 03:13:24 AM »
She basically said that she had been told a time to get ready by, met that time, but was accused of being late because we all just decided to leave once we were ready. When someone asked her if she had noticed other people getting ready, she said "yes, but presumably you would have had a shower and got dressed even if we weren't going anywhere. I thought that's what you were doing." She also said that if we'd told her that we were going ASAP, she wouldn't have made the decision to watch TV, but that we didn't say that


Interesting that Alice would assume that everyone else showering was just a normal part of getting up rather than specifically getting ready to go when that's not what she did herself.

AnnaJ

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #127 on: October 24, 2013, 10:56:42 AM »
She basically said that she had been told a time to get ready by, met that time, but was accused of being late because we all just decided to leave once we were ready. When someone asked her if she had noticed other people getting ready, she said "yes, but presumably you would have had a shower and got dressed even if we weren't going anywhere. I thought that's what you were doing." She also said that if we'd told her that we were going ASAP, she wouldn't have made the decision to watch TV, but that we didn't say that


Interesting that Alice would assume that everyone else showering was just a normal part of getting up rather than specifically getting ready to go when that's not what she did herself.

I'm confused by the comment in bold - my impression is that Alice did shower as part of her 'getting up' ritual so I don't understand.  I'm basing this on the fact that the OP said she took less than a half hour (maybe 15 minutes?) to get ready to go out, and I'm assuming she was doing last minute things like changing, or makeup, or just gathering things together, so I could be wrong about it.

ShadowLady

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #128 on: October 24, 2013, 04:38:49 PM »
It does make me wonder, how many people here put on different clothes than what they are figuring to wear the rest of the day?

Well, except for gardening, when I get home from work, and plan to work in the garden and do messy things, then I will change out of my work clothes, and in to clothes that I don't care if i get dirty/messy.

But other than that, once I put on my clothes in the morning, I'm planning on wearing them the rest of the day.  That includes weekends.  So why did she have to change clothes?

Kiwichick

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #129 on: October 24, 2013, 07:44:37 PM »
I dress like a crazy bag lady when I'm at home, if I have to leave the house I have to change.

squeakers

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #130 on: October 24, 2013, 07:45:21 PM »
It does make me wonder, how many people here put on different clothes than what they are figuring to wear the rest of the day?

Well, except for gardening, when I get home from work, and plan to work in the garden and do messy things, then I will change out of my work clothes, and in to clothes that I don't care if i get dirty/messy.

But other than that, once I put on my clothes in the morning, I'm planning on wearing them the rest of the day.  That includes weekends.  So why did she have to change clothes?

Maybe she was wearing a lounge set? Clothes specifically for sitting around the house and not really meant for going out in public.  I do that but my clothes are called "pajamas"  :D
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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #131 on: October 24, 2013, 08:17:01 PM »
So, I think Alice needed to get something from her car quite early in the morning. As a result, she threw on an old t-shirt and some jeans, and once she had collected what she needed, she remained in her t-shirt and jeans without having showered. Her intention was to have a shower and get changed into fresh clothes before leaving. We all assumed that she had done this already.

secretrebel

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #132 on: October 25, 2013, 08:10:02 AM »
She basically said that she had been told a time to get ready by, met that time, but was accused of being late because we all just decided to leave once we were ready. When someone asked her if she had noticed other people getting ready, she said "yes, but presumably you would have had a shower and got dressed even if we weren't going anywhere. I thought that's what you were doing." She also said that if we'd told her that we were going ASAP, she wouldn't have made the decision to watch TV, but that we didn't say that


Interesting that Alice would assume that everyone else showering was just a normal part of getting up rather than specifically getting ready to go when that's not what she did herself.

I'm confused by the comment in bold - my impression is that Alice did shower as part of her 'getting up' ritual so I don't understand.  I'm basing this on the fact that the OP said she took less than a half hour (maybe 15 minutes?) to get ready to go out, and I'm assuming she was doing last minute things like changing, or makeup, or just gathering things together, so I could be wrong about it.

In the OP it was explained that Alice got up and threw on some casual clothes and (I think it was later stated) hadn't showered or put on the clothes she intended to wear to go out.

Later, after the holiday, Alice told the OP that she hadn't realised everyone else getting showered and dressed meant they were getting ready to go out. Alice said "presumably you would have had a shower and got dressed even if we weren't going anywhere. I thought that's what you were doing."

But Alice herself didn't shower and get dressed when first getting up. So she assumed that everyone else's ablutions and dressing were part of normal behaviour when this was not her own behaviour. This makes me side eye what Alice actually was thinking about everyone else getting ready.

MariaE

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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #133 on: October 25, 2013, 08:46:04 AM »
She basically said that she had been told a time to get ready by, met that time, but was accused of being late because we all just decided to leave once we were ready. When someone asked her if she had noticed other people getting ready, she said "yes, but presumably you would have had a shower and got dressed even if we weren't going anywhere. I thought that's what you were doing." She also said that if we'd told her that we were going ASAP, she wouldn't have made the decision to watch TV, but that we didn't say that


Interesting that Alice would assume that everyone else showering was just a normal part of getting up rather than specifically getting ready to go when that's not what she did herself.

I'm confused by the comment in bold - my impression is that Alice did shower as part of her 'getting up' ritual so I don't understand.  I'm basing this on the fact that the OP said she took less than a half hour (maybe 15 minutes?) to get ready to go out, and I'm assuming she was doing last minute things like changing, or makeup, or just gathering things together, so I could be wrong about it.

In the OP it was explained that Alice got up and threw on some casual clothes and (I think it was later stated) hadn't showered or put on the clothes she intended to wear to go out.

Later, after the holiday, Alice told the OP that she hadn't realised everyone else getting showered and dressed meant they were getting ready to go out. Alice said "presumably you would have had a shower and got dressed even if we weren't going anywhere. I thought that's what you were doing."

But Alice herself didn't shower and get dressed when first getting up. So she assumed that everyone else's ablutions and dressing were part of normal behaviour when this was not her own behaviour. This makes me side eye what Alice actually was thinking about everyone else getting ready.

I understand what you're saying, but I can also understand Alice's actions from a completely non-PA point of view, as I could see myself doing something similar. Let me try to explain my theoretical thought-process if I were in Alice's shoes.

- I wake up early and realize I have to get something in the car. I'm not really mentally ready to get ready for the day so I just throw on some random clothes - possibly even yesterday's clothes - intending to get washed and changed later.
- People start getting showered and getting ready for the day - same as I would have done if I hadn't had to get up early and thus got dressed before I felt like taking a shower.
- Bob tells me that we'll leave at noon - at least, that's how I understand it - meaning I have plenty of time to get ready.
- People get impatient because I'm not ready, whereas I didn't know they were getting ready-ready instead of just ready-for-the-day ready.

If you've never had to get up and do something that required clothes before you felt ready to take a shower, then this thought-process might not make any sense to you at all.  But I could so easily see myself in Alice's shoes, and see nothing PA or suspect about it.
 
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Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
« Reply #134 on: October 25, 2013, 10:44:28 AM »
In the OP it was explained that Alice got up and threw on some casual clothes and (I think it was later stated) hadn't showered or put on the clothes she intended to wear to go out.

Later, after the holiday, Alice told the OP that she hadn't realised everyone else getting showered and dressed meant they were getting ready to go out. Alice said "presumably you would have had a shower and got dressed even if we weren't going anywhere. I thought that's what you were doing."

But Alice herself didn't shower and get dressed when first getting up. So she assumed that everyone else's ablutions and dressing were part of normal behaviour when this was not her own behaviour. This makes me side eye what Alice actually was thinking about everyone else getting ready.

I think Alice's point was that if we were all just hanging around the house that day, we would still all have gotten showered and dressed, as would she. The fact that she hadn't yet doesn't mean that she wouldn't have done.