Author Topic: "Gifted" Child - Engage or Not? - Horn O'Plenty Play Update (Reply #447)  (Read 67165 times)

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TurtleDove

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Re: "Gifted" Child - Engage or Not? - Email Notice (Reply #107)
« Reply #150 on: October 25, 2013, 03:43:59 PM »
I think we might be talking about different things.  I am all for AP classes (I took them all through high school). I am not understanding purpose of the "gifted" label.  Is it the same thing?  Then yay, I am gifted too! :)

I know that I have a higher IQ than average, but I am certainly not approaching genius level.  My experience with AP classes wasn't that all of us were "smarter" necessarily but rather that we were willing and able to put in the work and had a goal of college to then pursue particular careers. It wasn't that we were "special" but rather than we had goals.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 03:50:47 PM by TurtleDove »

Twik

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Re: "Gifted" Child - Engage or Not? - Email Notice (Reply #107)
« Reply #151 on: October 25, 2013, 04:15:41 PM »
The "gifted" label is used by educators and educational psychologists as a category in the overall group of "exceptional" students ("exceptional" meaning exceptions to the students whose needs are reasonably well addressed by standard educational methods). It was not meant to be an award or cause for acclaim, but a category that needed a different educational approach than the norm.

Educators preferred this to, say, calling them "smart" (because, among other things, academic ability is not the only measure of that), or "advanced" (because doing well in school comes from a lot of things, including sheer hard work). Instead, these students have a "gift" for academics, like some students have a gift for music, or art. If you are an educator whose goal is efficiency (and that's not the craze it was at one time), it is inefficient to teach people with special abilities as if those abilities didn't exist, or stand out from the norm.

Again, one may point to individual members on a sports team who got there because of sheer hard work, but you cannot deny that most of them started with a gift (strength, size, a nervous system that lets them throw and catch better than the average child). Michael Jordan may work hard, but it's not *just* hard work that made him who he is.
My cousin's memoir of love and loneliness while raising a child with multiple disabilities will be out on Amazon soon! Know the Night, by Maria Mutch, has been called "full of hope, light, and companionship for surviving the small hours of the night."

Iris

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Re: "Gifted" Child - Engage or Not? - Email Notice (Reply #107)
« Reply #152 on: October 25, 2013, 04:22:02 PM »
I don't like the gifted label because I think it is too broad these days. Back in ancient history, when I went to school we had "gifted" kids, but it meant something truly exceptional - smart, motivated and mature for their years. I was not gifted and I was just fine with that because I was just a normal smarter than average kid. However all our classes were streamed, so it didn't matter because you were put in the place you earned and everyone was cool with that.

Then that became evil and bad and everyone was put in together. Twik's exercise class analogy is an excellent summation of what is wrong with that idea.  l literally read yesterday a very earnest article about how we needed to put each individual student at the centre of our lesson planning and thanked deity that I teach in a subject where classes are streamed.

So now, in an effort to counter the problems that have arisen from overlooking the fact that not every human being is the same, the 'gifted' label has been expanded to include any student able to achieve in the top 10% of any subject. Now, under that definition I was gifted at high school in about 5 subjects and I don't like it. To me, literally everyone is in the top ten per cent of something, although it may not be at school. And parents who went to school when "gifted" meant "prodigy" get unrealistic expectations from the label.

So basically an unrealistic system is in place and so now they are slapping labels on kids left, right and centre in order to show that the system DOES work just not for Jimmy, or Jane, or Johnny,... but that's because of "label" not because of the system...

Okay, I'll stop now. But in my defense I've held this on for, like, right pages now  :)
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PurpleFrog

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Re: "Gifted" Child - Engage or Not? - Email Notice (Reply #107)
« Reply #153 on: October 25, 2013, 04:34:22 PM »
My dogs are very gifted. They know before we leave the house to stand by the kitchen counter and wait for their treat. They sit by the front door when they want to walk, and by the back when they just need to go out. They know what their walk times are and remind us when we don't walk them. So, my dogs are gifted. Very, very gifted.

Also they'll be putting a performance of Rent this weekend if anyone wants to come!

But do they pretend to be cats, that's the real test.  >:D
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Twik

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Re: "Gifted" Child - Engage or Not? - Email Notice (Reply #107)
« Reply #154 on: October 25, 2013, 04:39:45 PM »
My mother's cat is gifted. He eats things such as invitations and doctor's requisitions that would require her to leave the house for prolonged periods. He does not eat the oil bill.

We think he's a human in a fur coat.
My cousin's memoir of love and loneliness while raising a child with multiple disabilities will be out on Amazon soon! Know the Night, by Maria Mutch, has been called "full of hope, light, and companionship for surviving the small hours of the night."

GlitterIsMyDrug

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Re: "Gifted" Child - Engage or Not? - Email Notice (Reply #107)
« Reply #155 on: October 25, 2013, 04:53:15 PM »
If someone would've told me as a child I was gifted, I probably would've thought I had magic powers. Of course I had a very strong desire to be Sabrina (the teenage witch). My mom didn't even tell me I had a high IQ and until I was older. She didn't see a reason to tell me, at 7 there wasn't much I could do about it, and instead just did what the psychologist recommended, found what I was interested in and got me involved in it.

Now my BFF, she got called "gifted". She even balks at the label as an adult. Though her mother is often praising discovering more of her "hidden gifts", like spray painting a stencil onto a canvas. She's now a "gifted artist", she's still getting asked why she just stopped at a master's degree and I got a PhD. Surely she's "just as gifted as Glitter", the reason in case you're wondering is she only needed a master's degree, and there wasn't a master's degree for my specialty at the time it was PhD or just the undergrad. Her mother got mad when we were elementary school and they did test her for the IP classes, but she just missed it on our math class and was no where near the mark for English or science, so they didn't think she'd benefit and sent her back to her regular classes. Her mom raised heck, but nothing happened, they just kept testing her year after year. Her daughter was gifted darn it! GIFTED!!!

GlitterIsMyDrug

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Re: "Gifted" Child - Engage or Not? - Email Notice (Reply #107)
« Reply #156 on: October 25, 2013, 04:54:07 PM »
My dogs are very gifted. They know before we leave the house to stand by the kitchen counter and wait for their treat. They sit by the front door when they want to walk, and by the back when they just need to go out. They know what their walk times are and remind us when we don't walk them. So, my dogs are gifted. Very, very gifted.

Also they'll be putting a performance of Rent this weekend if anyone wants to come!

But do they pretend to be cats, that's the real test.  >:D

Well they try walking on the back of the couch...doesn't work out for them usually.

Dr. F.

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Re: "Gifted" Child - Engage or Not? - Email Notice (Reply #107)
« Reply #157 on: October 25, 2013, 04:59:52 PM »
My dogs are very gifted. They know before we leave the house to stand by the kitchen counter and wait for their treat. They sit by the front door when they want to walk, and by the back when they just need to go out. They know what their walk times are and remind us when we don't walk them. So, my dogs are gifted. Very, very gifted.

Also they'll be putting a performance of Rent this weekend if anyone wants to come!

BWAAA HAHAHA!

I'd pay good money for those tickets!

Back on the topic, I'm an academic and have people say, "Ooooh, you have a PhD? You must be really smart!" No, not really. You need about average intelligence to get a doctorate (or an MD, IMHO), you just have to be willing to work for it and take what a friend of mine calls the Academic Vow of Poverty. Many of the really smart people I knew when I was getting through grad school ended up quitting. They couldn't handle it when they had a paper rejected or didn't get a grant funded - something that happens to everyone, no matter how good you are. More important for getting through grad school are persistence, resilience, and a strong work ethic. I'll accept someone into my lab with those traits over someone with a great GPA/test scores every time. The hard truth is that 90-95% of experiments DON'T WORK. If you're easily frustrated, you'll never make it in this field.

(Also, count me as another one dying to know what the "treat" is on Sat!)

Yvaine

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Re: "Gifted" Child - Engage or Not? - Email Notice (Reply #107)
« Reply #158 on: October 25, 2013, 05:19:23 PM »
The "gifted" label is used by educators and educational psychologists as a category in the overall group of "exceptional" students ("exceptional" meaning exceptions to the students whose needs are reasonably well addressed by standard educational methods). It was not meant to be an award or cause for acclaim, but a category that needed a different educational approach than the norm.

Educators preferred this to, say, calling them "smart" (because, among other things, academic ability is not the only measure of that), or "advanced" (because doing well in school comes from a lot of things, including sheer hard work). Instead, these students have a "gift" for academics, like some students have a gift for music, or art. If you are an educator whose goal is efficiency (and that's not the craze it was at one time), it is inefficient to teach people with special abilities as if those abilities didn't exist, or stand out from the norm.

Again, one may point to individual members on a sports team who got there because of sheer hard work, but you cannot deny that most of them started with a gift (strength, size, a nervous system that lets them throw and catch better than the average child). Michael Jordan may work hard, but it's not *just* hard work that made him who he is.

This. It's just the term used. TurtleDove, we had the AP classes too, but that was more for high school, where people had their plans and goals at least partly figured out. Gifted was used more in elementary school, when it was more about having a "knack" for academics than about college plans, because most people didn't have a concrete college plan at age 6. (And indeed they didn't even call it the gifted program to us kids; they used that word to our parents but the kids were told the special enrichment class was called something else that was kind of a cutesy euphemism.) I agree with others that it was mainly to give kids with this "knack"--whatever you want to call it--something to stimulate their minds when they were bored with regular-paced classwork.

Nobody has to like the term "gifted" if they don't want to, but it's the one that's become established, and so it's widely understood. It doesn't mean "you don't ever have to work at anything because you have a gift." I do think it's true that some gifted kids have issues learning to study, but it's not because they're malicious or intentionally being lazy, it's because classwork in the early grades came to them easily enough that they didn't quite realize, as children, that it took more work for other kids to learn the same stuff. They thought they were studying. And then that didn't work when they met challenging work later. That, I think, is part of why the programs exist, to give them something that is hard.

Connor's problem isn't that he's "gifted," it's that his parents let him get away with murder, and that his father is a verbally abusive jerk who berates the mother constantly, thus modeling that behavior for his son.

iridaceae

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Re: "Gifted" Child - Engage or Not? - Email Notice (Reply #107)
« Reply #159 on: October 25, 2013, 05:42:04 PM »
I don't have a problem with the gifted whether you call them gifted talented or RosePetals. My point is any bored child is a waste. Every child deserves the best education- the most stimulating,  thoughtful and teaching- no matter their intelligence level. Little Bobby stuck forever learning D hicks and Jane stories in elementary school because he is average is just a big a tragedy as little Bobby not getting to study advanced calculus while everyone else is studying trig.

jmarvellous

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Re: "Gifted" Child - Engage or Not? - Email Notice (Reply #107)
« Reply #160 on: October 25, 2013, 06:16:25 PM »
I, too, have been trying to hold my tongue on this, but I guess I feel a need to speak up -- blame my Challenge and GT (gifted and talented) classes if you must, but it's probably more innate than that.

Challenge was the name for our 3/4 day, once a week separate class in elementary school. You had to take several tests to get in, and they were basically IQ tests, with an interview component. The idea was seeing whether you had the potential to think creatively about a problem--whether you needed an extra challenge beyond the classroom. In our grades of about 6 classes each, there were usually 5-15 kids who qualified. The Challenge activities were basically a semester of enrichment around a single topic. We did word problems and logic puzzles, drew or wrote creatively around the topic, and sometimes did more math- or technology-related activities. It was such a relief to be around those kids for a day a week!

In upper grades, we were mostly integrated with "honors" or "AP" kids (other kids who were smart, but frankly not as weird as GT kids-- we generally just looked at things a bit more sideways), unless there were enough of us interested in a subject to get a whole class to ourselves. Sometimes, the teachers would stretch a topic to get a more "GT" way of thinking about it, but often we had the exact same assignments. We either rose to the occasion, or chose to go back into the mainstream classes.

What was the effect on my personal development? Not much! I certainly didn't feel empowered by it, or oppressed by it. It was (rarely) a reminder of my ability to achieve if I bothered to try, but I wasn't afraid to stream back into "regular" math for my upper grades (I loathed geometry). My peers are doing well, or not. Many of them are doctors, PhDs, lawyers, engineers and teachers. Only a couple didn't go to college. A few have other "less prestigious" careers. My siblings were GT, as were most of their friends, and I haven't heard of anything bad happening because of the label there, either (aside from one man with schizophrenia who talks about being a genius ... but that's another conversation entirely).

I've never heard them complain about their label, or use it as an excuse to act weird. I am very grateful for my classes--most of my best friends were "geniuses." :P

kherbert05

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Re: "Gifted" Child - Engage or Not?
« Reply #161 on: October 25, 2013, 06:53:53 PM »
I question what the purpose of labeling children as "gifted" is.  Are they placed in accelerated classes?  Do they do statistically amazing things as adults?  I guess I just don't see the value in labeling a child as "gifted" unless there is some heightened expectation or performance that is typical of those labeled in this way.  Personally, like some of the other parents on this board, I have uncontroverted proof that my child is beyond amazing in every way (;-)) but I see no reason to make an issue out of this because it would either place a lot of undue pressure on her or make her extremely socially awkward and likely unhappy because she would not be able to relate to her peers.  I confess I just don't get it.

In the US Gifted kids are special needs and part of Special Ed. Teachers are required to provide differentiated activities to challenge them, they are grouped together with other high performing students in classes and  in my district are pulled out for specialized instruction once a week.   FYI - kids who are Gifted (not Honors) tend to see the world upside down and backwards - they don't give a fig about subjects that don't interest them, tend to obsess about subjects that do interest them. They also tend to have a higher than normal rate of LD's which might point towards their brains just being wired differently. 

Are they actually required? I was identified as "gifted" in early elementary school (actually I only have a high verbal intelligence; I have dyscalculia and can barely count) but my school district didn't have any gifted or honors programs, even in high school. I spent my school career frustrated and bored out of my mind (except in math class, where I was frustrated and confused, because my learning disability wasn't diagnosed until I was 20). A couple of teachers would allow me to read different books and do reports on them, but that was something they did because they understood how bored I was, not because it was required by the school.
It is FEDERAL Law and has been since I started teaching in 2001.


Teaching reading is actually easy and there is no excuse not to I have 17 kids


9 are on a level 20 split into 2 groups From our leveled library I find books I think each group will enjoy.


7 are on level 18 - same thing split them up by interest and find books from the library I think they will enjoy


1 - is on a level 8 and will be getting additional help from a specialist. Harder to get interesting books because the level is so low.


Writing is by its very nature individualized.


Math We are teaching 2 digit + 1 digit with regrouping (carrying for old school). 1/2 of them have got it with manipulatives 1/2 are lost. For work stations I'm pairing those that got it with those that don't. Those that get it can help those that are struggling. BUT when I pull them for small groups I will pull kids on the same level. Those struggling we will work on that skill. Those that got it we will split the time 1/2 doing the math with the manipulatives and the written algorithm together so they can make the connection. The other 1/2 we will work on subtracting 2 digit - 1 digit with regrouping using manipulatives. 


Science 80% of our science is supposed to be hands on. That helps differentiate. Those that get science enjoy the hands on. THose that don't get it gain so much from hands on. (Reminds me go get mason jars to make musical instruments and butter to see where it melts faster Sunny or shady spot (remember 2nd grade) then does it melt faster on blacktop or grass (in the sun)) Later in the unit they will get a chance to design an exhibit to answer a question. Kids of similar level will be put together.


Social studies - honestly our kids' world is limited to apartments, walmart and school. They rarely even go to the library which is just a block down from the walmart. So they lack so much background knowledge that we are struggling to get them experiences so that they can get the curriculum.
Don't Teach Them For Your Past. Teach Them For Their Future

girlmusic

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Re: "Gifted" Child - Engage or Not? - Email Notice (Reply #107)
« Reply #162 on: October 25, 2013, 07:20:23 PM »
I was in the gifted program in elementary school. We were taken out of class once or twice a week and it was wonderful! We did tangrams, went on "imagery" trips, learned to play chess, and did research papers (with bibliographies and all). I just thought it was fun and I liked being in a small class (8 kids) where I could use my imagination and learn different things than what they taught in the classroom. I was often reading by myself in class and my teachers had separate assignments for me so I wouldn't be bored.

In the end I think it was a good experience for me. Am I a famous wealthy lady? Nope - but I am still intellectually curious and have the tools to know how to satisfy that curiosity.








 

DoubleTrouble

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Re: "Gifted" Child - Engage or Not? - Email Notice (Reply #107)
« Reply #163 on: October 25, 2013, 10:01:46 PM »
Back on the topic, I'm an academic and have people say, "Ooooh, you have a PhD? You must be really smart!" No, not really. You need about average intelligence to get a doctorate (or an MD, IMHO), you just have to be willing to work for it and take what a friend of mine calls the Academic Vow of Poverty. Many of the really smart people I knew when I was getting through grad school ended up quitting. They couldn't handle it when they had a paper rejected or didn't get a grant funded - something that happens to everyone, no matter how good you are. More important for getting through grad school are persistence, resilience, and a strong work ethic. I'll accept someone into my lab with those traits over someone with a great GPA/test scores every time. The hard truth is that 90-95% of experiments DON'T WORK. If you're easily frustrated, you'll never make it in this field.

You forgot sell your soul to the graduate school!

Agreed on your theory. Out of the two people in my smart family with graduate degrees, there are two very different outcomes.

My brother would be what you call very, very smart but he's also very, very impractical & often gives up on stuff if it's not a success right away. Plus his work ethic is non-existent which is why it took him over 10 years to get his PhD. He's had every advantage handed to him (loving parents, resources, excellent schools at every level) and he takes it for granted that things will just be handed over to him when he wants it. Hate to admit it but I can say that my brother has made similar smart-alack remarks like the kid in the OP, only brother was an adult at the time; he also looks down on everyone who he doesn't think is as smart as him. Yes, that includes me. And yet brother wonders why the family members his age don't like him very much & tend to not interact with him much.

On the other hand, my DH is also very, very smart but he's very, very motivated. He's had to work for everything in his life from grades to jobs but he doesn't take anything for granted. Most people who know DH only know he's got a PhD & a JD because his very proud parents & wife tell them; he'll actually get embarrassed if people gush over his degrees. He's always interested in learning new things but never shoves it in anyone's face & is always happy to educate others & does a great job explaining things, he's a natural teacher.

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(Also, count me as another one dying to know what the "treat" is on Sat!)

I think that if we don't find out, there's going to be a lot of cat dying around this forum (figuratively of course, I loves me some kitties!).

AliciaLynette

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Re: "Gifted" Child - Engage or Not? - Email Notice (Reply #107)
« Reply #164 on: October 26, 2013, 04:24:45 AM »
I am so very jealous of you guys who got to be with other GT/etc kids for certain classes in school!!  I so wanted to do that, they did it for maths, but not for anything else. 
I just lazed through high school, because nobody pushed me to work.  I was getting high grades basically doing the minimum amount of work possible.  My English teacher did ignore the fact that I was reading ahead of the class, but we weren't streamed so I was in a class with some really average kids.  I was so bored!  She did try, she used to leave notes with my homework suggesting other books I could read, but within the class setting/curriculum she couldn't help me.
When I hit 'A' levels I just scraped through, just like my mum had, because we didn't know how to work.  We hadn't ever had to.


As GT people, Mum is a legal secretary, having been a school secretary while we were growing up.  Dad is a gardener, loves playing in dirt and with bugs.  I'm a SAHM, working part-time as cashier in the local petrol station.  We're all happy, and our intelligence isn't relevant. 
Children are natural mimics; they act like their parents in spite of every effort to teach them good manners.
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