Author Topic: "Gifted" Child - Engage or Not? - Horn O'Plenty Play Update (Reply #447)  (Read 75209 times)

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Erich L-ster

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Re: "Gifted" Child - Engage or Not? - Horn O'Plenty Play Update (Reply #447)
« Reply #495 on: December 05, 2013, 04:03:11 PM »
Just in the interest of academic speculation, I think it could be profitable to imagine what advice EHell would give to Madeleine if she was the OP. So she starts out by talking about how her boss mysteriously asked them to stay after work and turned it into a solicitation for her son, and did not graciously accept people leaving. Someone (Madeleine? I've forgotten now) reported this, Carol was chided by her bosses, but sent only a grudging non-apology. (Was that Madeleine again who reported it?) Next the anonymous flyers, which are suspicious but not provable, then Carol hamfistedly outs herself and Madeleine, our OP, is very angry about this, has a verbal altercation with Carol about it, and ends up reporting Carol to the bosses (possibly for the third time).

Then Madeleine says, "Should I go to the play?"

Under those circumstances my guess is that the answer would be "No" but I don't think Carol outright admitted they were her flyers.

Goosey

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Re: "Gifted" Child - Engage or Not? - Horn O'Plenty Play Update (Reply #447)
« Reply #496 on: December 05, 2013, 04:13:41 PM »
For me, it would depend on the reason:

1. I want to see what Carol is up to so I can talk to my friends about it:  No, that's not a good idea or motivation
2. I am interested in the charity: Can you donate without going? If so, I would
3. I am interested in seeing the play: If you go, avoid Carol.

Lynn2000

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Re: "Gifted" Child - Engage or Not? - Horn O'Plenty Play Update (Reply #447)
« Reply #497 on: December 05, 2013, 04:41:19 PM »
I tend to agree with Goosey. I would probably advise Madeleine to examine her motivation for going and to consider how her attendance could be perceived, even if her motivates were pure. Sometimes that is important. Now if she had a niece who was going to be in the play, I would say she should still go, but try to avoid Carol and if she spotted her, try to make it obvious she was there with/for other people. Should that be necessary in an ideal world? No, but then again this entire board wouldn't exist in an ideal world. :) I don't see anything wrong with Madeleine reporting the things she's seen through the appropriate chains at work, but I think she should be careful to keep it all very professional, and avoid anything that could look personal, as that could undermine her valid complaints.
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nolechica

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Re: "Gifted" Child - Engage or Not? - Horn O'Plenty Play Update (Reply #447)
« Reply #498 on: December 05, 2013, 05:12:12 PM »
Does Madeline stand to gain anything or have friends that could gain if Carol is fired (more than peace of mind)?

citadelle

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Re: "Gifted" Child - Engage or Not? - Horn O'Plenty Play Update (Reply #447)
« Reply #499 on: December 06, 2013, 06:54:25 AM »
For the record, although I am happy for updates because I like to know how things turn out, I am not necessarily hoping Carol get first. 

I think someone earlier nailed it when they mentioned something about justice and resolution.  If someone like Carol is acting inappropriately, then that behavior should be stopped by whatever powers that be in whatever way is effective.  If its someone like K'nnihave, we hope someone (like Roe!) puts their foot down and stops allowing her to take advantage.  Actually, in many of the situations, it's often one person taking advantage of someone else in some way or another.    Even, Carol - she is taking advantage of her fellow employees/co-workers to bully them into supporting her son.  This is unfair and wrong. 

In the end, I'm not really invested in whether Carol gets fired or not, but I do think her behavior should be stopped - for the sake of the people she affects - including the OP.

I understand the schadenfreude aspect and have felt it, too. I just don't know if schadenfreude is "polite".

Venus193

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Re: "Gifted" Child - Engage or Not? - Horn O'Plenty Play Update (Reply #447)
« Reply #500 on: December 06, 2013, 07:22:53 AM »
If Carol is fired for this behavior I don't call it "harm" (the literal translation of "schaden"); I call it justice.

She has already been called out for unprofessional and unethical behavior and what did she do?  She flauted it, as though the rules of polite society and the workplace don't apply to her.

Someone like this is not likely to learn her lessons until something like losing a job comes along to teach it.

citadelle

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Re: "Gifted" Child - Engage or Not? - Horn O'Plenty Play Update (Reply #447)
« Reply #501 on: December 06, 2013, 07:54:04 AM »
If Carol is fired for this behavior I don't call it "harm" (the literal translation of "schaden"); I call it justice.

She has already been called out for unprofessional and unethical behavior and what did she do?  She flauted it, as though the rules of polite society and the workplace don't apply to her.

Someone like this is not likely to learn her lessons until something like losing a job comes along to teach it.
It is harm *to Carol*. That is the literal meaning.

Otterpop

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Re: "Gifted" Child - Engage or Not? - Horn O'Plenty Play Update (Reply #447)
« Reply #502 on: December 06, 2013, 09:16:20 AM »
If Carol is fired for this behavior I don't call it "harm" (the literal translation of "schaden"); I call it justice.

She has already been called out for unprofessional and unethical behavior and what did she do?  She flauted it, as though the rules of polite society and the workplace don't apply to her.

Someone like this is not likely to learn her lessons until something like losing a job comes along to teach it.
It is harm *to Carol*. That is the literal meaning.

But harm to oneself that comes from one's own bad behavior is:  consequence, discipline, justice served.

We're always wondering where personal responsibility has gone.  It's left because people are shielded from the natural consequences of their actions by their parents or a ridiculously lax authority.  Conor is a prime example of a kid being raised to behave abominably.  Perhaps his mother will learn from people's rejection of HER behavior.  I personally don't want to see her fired, just reassigned to an area without access to underlings.  She was warned to stop seeking support for her son from the volunteers, she proceeded to do it again under the guise of an anonymous flyer.  Then she's rude when someone catches her.  She deserves the consequences.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 09:18:06 AM by Otterpop »

nayberry

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Re: "Gifted" Child - Engage or Not? - Horn O'Plenty Play Update (Reply #447)
« Reply #503 on: December 06, 2013, 09:25:29 AM »
If Carol is fired for this behavior I don't call it "harm" (the literal translation of "schaden"); I call it justice.

She has already been called out for unprofessional and unethical behavior and what did she do?  She flauted it, as though the rules of polite society and the workplace don't apply to her.

Someone like this is not likely to learn her lessons until something like losing a job comes along to teach it.
It is harm *to Carol*. That is the literal meaning.

But harm to oneself that comes from one's own bad behavior is:  consequence, discipline, justice served.

We're always wondering where personal responsibility has gone.  It's left because people are shielded from the natural consequences of their actions by their parents or a ridiculously lax authority.  Conor is a prime example of a kid being raised to behave abominably.  Perhaps his mother will learn from people's rejection of HER behavior.  I personally don't want to see her fired, just reassigned to an area without access to underlings.  She was warned to stop seeking support for her son from the volunteers, she proceeded to do it again under the guise of an anonymous flyer.  Then she's rude when someone catches her.  She deserves the consequences.


i agree otterpop,  Carol was warned and yet persisted in her bad behaviour, its karmic justice if she loses her job through her own bad choices

citadelle

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Re: "Gifted" Child - Engage or Not? - Horn O'Plenty Play Update (Reply #447)
« Reply #504 on: December 06, 2013, 09:33:39 AM »
If Carol is fired for this behavior I don't call it "harm" (the literal translation of "schaden"); I call it justice.

She has already been called out for unprofessional and unethical behavior and what did she do?  She flauted it, as though the rules of polite society and the workplace don't apply to her.

Someone like this is not likely to learn her lessons until something like losing a job comes along to teach it.
It is harm *to Carol*. That is the literal meaning.

But harm to oneself that comes from one's own bad behavior is:  consequence, discipline, justice served.

We're always wondering where personal responsibility has gone.  It's left because people are shielded from the natural consequences of their actions by their parents or a ridiculously lax authority.  Conor is a prime example of a kid being raised to behave abominably.  Perhaps his mother will learn from people's rejection of HER behavior.  I personally don't want to see her fired, just reassigned to an area without access to underlings.  She was warned to stop seeking support for her son from the volunteers, she proceeded to do it again under the guise of an anonymous flyer.  Then she's rude when someone catches her.  She deserves the consequences.


i agree otterpop,  Carol was warned and yet persisted in her bad behaviour, its karmic justice if she loses her job through her own bad choices

It may be karmic justice, and Carol may have earned it. It is still schadenfreude to *enjoy* her getting it, though, and I wonder if that is polite. I don't know.

Goosey

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Re: "Gifted" Child - Engage or Not? - Horn O'Plenty Play Update (Reply #447)
« Reply #505 on: December 06, 2013, 09:37:56 AM »
I don't know that firing = justice. I would prefer it if her manager worked on her behavior a little more with her. After all, this is abnormal behavior for her. She was told "no more fundraising at work." She figured fliers on cars wasn't at work. It was a loophole and one she shouldn't have exploited and she needs to be counseled for it. I can't see being so upset that I need to be "held back" and I can't see why she should be fired right away.

Someone getting their comeuppance or being held accountable for their actions doesn't always mean the harshest possible punishment and it shouldn't. And it shouldn't be pleasurable to others when that does happen.

Venus193

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Re: "Gifted" Child - Engage or Not? - Horn O'Plenty Play Update (Reply #447)
« Reply #506 on: December 06, 2013, 10:24:57 AM »
Is it rude to enjoy schaudenfreude?  The answer is no; it's just rude to gloat about it.

cabbagegirl28

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Re: "Gifted" Child - Engage or Not? - Horn O'Plenty Play Update (Reply #447)
« Reply #507 on: December 06, 2013, 10:40:03 AM »
Is it rude to enjoy schaudenfreude?  The answer is no; it's just rude to gloat about it.

This. Etiquette doesn't govern your feelings, only the actions on said feelings.


Vita brevis, ars longa

Lynn2000

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Re: "Gifted" Child - Engage or Not? - Horn O'Plenty Play Update (Reply #447)
« Reply #508 on: December 06, 2013, 10:42:21 AM »
Is it rude to enjoy schaudenfreude?  The answer is no; it's just rude to gloat about it.

I think we actually had a thread about that very question some time ago. I think the general consensus was that, as with many things, if you manage to keep them entirely in your head, and they don't leak out into your behavior, it's not rude. I think this applies to Madeleine in an interesting way--etiquette is not necessarily concerned with why she went to the play. It was open to the public and she paid her money (or whatever) like everyone else, and while there didn't behave in any objectively rude ways. So she's clear on that point. Telling the OP/others about what happened afterwards may or may not be rude--it can be hard to pin down when FYI turns into bad gossip.

But sometimes I think it behooves us to examine our motivations ourselves, what they say about us, and how we feel about that, kind of like with schadenfreude. And also, in Madeleine's case, how her appearance at the play might have been perceived by Carol--not that other people's perception should be the sole reason we do things, but I think EHell has been very good for me, at least, by helping me to see others' POV in situations. :)

Honestly, the thing I personally would like best in this situation, is if somehow, through counseling or whatever, Carol suddenly realized how much her behavior was harming herself and her son, saw the light, and became determined to turn her life around. And then was able to do it. From what's been described here, her life seems so desperate and sad to me, and I feel bad that that's spilling over onto her child. I don't think she should have no consequences for her actions, though. In fact that may be the only thing that wakes her up to reality.
~Lynn2000

Possum

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Re: "Gifted" Child - Engage or Not? - Horn O'Plenty Play Update (Reply #447)
« Reply #509 on: December 06, 2013, 12:44:43 PM »
I understand the schadenfreude aspect and have felt it, too. I just don't know if schadenfreude is "polite".
It's not polite, but it is human, and even the most polite of us may secretly, untold to anyone, long to indulge in it time to time.