Author Topic: The good, the bad, and the downright naughty  (Read 12918 times)

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whatsanenigma

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Re: The good, the bad, and the downright naughty
« Reply #60 on: November 12, 2013, 01:02:30 PM »
That's fine, but I do think that if it's at all reasonable to do something to not single out Darius, the OP should do that. There's been a lot of "Psh. Whatever, who cares about Darius, the bully!" posts. Well, Darius is just a little boy. We should all care - at least a little bit.

Caring is one thing, but what to do about it is another.  I don't think there is anything the OP can realistically do to change Darius's behavior, especially as regards his possible behavior at this party.  And if the daughter really wants to have almost everyone from the class (and the OP is otherwise okay with it) that would not be very fair, to exclude some wanted people just because Darius's behavior is intolerable.

I think that is the main point here, actually. Darius's behavior is intolerable.  Why this is the case, that is not the problem of the OP or her daughter, at least not when it comes to party planning.  If OP wants to otherwise talk with D's parents and see what's going on, she can, but even that's not needed.  Unless it is literally just to say "Darius's behavior is intolerable" and take the focus off of the possible idea that "Darius is a bad child" or "There is no good reason for his behavior" (judging his parents' parenting skills)-it's just that for whatever reason it exists, it isn't tolerable.

And it might take him being excluded from things for the parents to take this as seriously as they need to, to hopefully improve his future behavior, however that needs to happen.

SamiHami

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Re: The good, the bad, and the downright naughty
« Reply #61 on: November 12, 2013, 01:12:06 PM »
You should invite whoever you want to invite, and if that means inviting everyone in her class except Darius, so be it. The thing is, you need to make it a party where you are inviting her friends as opposed to inviting her class. If it so happens that her friends are everyone in her class except Darius, well, that's just the way it worked out. You do this by mailing invitation to their homes, rather than passing them out in class. Passing them out in class makes is a pseudo-school related event and it would be rude to exclude anyone. By mailing the invites you are taking the "classmate" element out of it and making it about friends.

What your daughter needs to know if that she cannot then say to Darius, "I'm having a party and you can't come! Nyah!" Sure, other kids will talk about it, but that's them. That's got nothing to do with your daughter; she can't control their actions. If Darius asks her why he can't come, you can teach her to say something like, "I'm just having my friends over for my party." This would be a good opportunity for him to learn cause and effect...as in, if you are mean to someone, you don't get invited to their parties.

If his parents ask you about it, I would say something along the same lines. "Oh, sorry but we're only inviting her friends to this party." If they push the issue then I think it's fine to say "She would be uncomfortable having him at her party because he picks on her and calls her names."

I don't think there would be anything rude about that.

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Goosey

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Re: The good, the bad, and the downright naughty
« Reply #62 on: November 12, 2013, 01:14:00 PM »
I do understand that and  I don't think the OP is at all obligated to invite Darius. I also think that if it's at all possible - even if not "required" - the OP should do something to either try to address the behavior, get in contact with the parents or make Darius feel less like the odd man out - however she feels best and most comfortable to do that.

I'm more addressing the tone of the posts than the issue. I think people are projecting their own bullying issues on a 4 year old.

Elfmama

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Re: The good, the bad, and the downright naughty
« Reply #63 on: November 12, 2013, 02:21:25 PM »
I do understand that and  I don't think the OP is at all obligated to invite Darius. I also think that if it's at all possible - even if not "required" - the OP should do something to either try to address the behavior, get in contact with the parents or make Darius feel less like the odd man out - however she feels best and most comfortable to do that.

I'm more addressing the tone of the posts than the issue. I think people are projecting their own bullying issues on a 4 year old.
At what age, then, does obnoxious behavior become bullying?  This is how a bully begins.  When he does something to hurt another child and everyone (especially parents) leaps in to excuse him with "Oh, he's just a little boy. He doesn't know any better."  That's why someone (especially parents!) need to teach him better.  And if the method of teaching him is to exclude him from something that other people get, it is NOT punishment -- it is consequences.
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Goosey

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Re: The good, the bad, and the downright naughty
« Reply #64 on: November 12, 2013, 02:52:24 PM »
I do understand that and  I don't think the OP is at all obligated to invite Darius. I also think that if it's at all possible - even if not "required" - the OP should do something to either try to address the behavior, get in contact with the parents or make Darius feel less like the odd man out - however she feels best and most comfortable to do that.

I'm more addressing the tone of the posts than the issue. I think people are projecting their own bullying issues on a 4 year old.
At what age, then, does obnoxious behavior become bullying?  This is how a bully begins.  When he does something to hurt another child and everyone (especially parents) leaps in to excuse him with "Oh, he's just a little boy. He doesn't know any better."  That's why someone (especially parents!) need to teach him better.  And if the method of teaching him is to exclude him from something that other people get, it is NOT punishment -- it is consequences.

Except that I'm not saying that. And his parents are being attentive when they're seeing the behavior, according to the OP. I'm saying he's a 4 year old who doesn't have the cognative ability to be a bully. I'm not excusing his behavior. And if there are OTHER avenues available to teach him before socially excluding him - then it should be done.

BarensMom

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Re: The good, the bad, and the downright naughty
« Reply #65 on: November 12, 2013, 02:56:39 PM »
Personally, OP missed a chance to demonstrate "actions have consequences" when Darius stuck his tongue out at her.  She could have said, "Darius, you just stuck your tongue out at me.  Because you did that, you're not invited to DD's party."

SamiHami

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Re: The good, the bad, and the downright naughty
« Reply #66 on: November 12, 2013, 03:05:52 PM »
Except that isn't the case. He is not being invited because of how he treats OP's daughter.

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whatsanenigma

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Re: The good, the bad, and the downright naughty
« Reply #67 on: November 12, 2013, 03:12:37 PM »
I do understand that and  I don't think the OP is at all obligated to invite Darius. I also think that if it's at all possible - even if not "required" - the OP should do something to either try to address the behavior, get in contact with the parents or make Darius feel less like the odd man out - however she feels best and most comfortable to do that.

I'm more addressing the tone of the posts than the issue. I think people are projecting their own bullying issues on a 4 year old.
At what age, then, does obnoxious behavior become bullying?  This is how a bully begins.  When he does something to hurt another child and everyone (especially parents) leaps in to excuse him with "Oh, he's just a little boy. He doesn't know any better."  That's why someone (especially parents!) need to teach him better.  And if the method of teaching him is to exclude him from something that other people get, it is NOT punishment -- it is consequences.

Except that I'm not saying that. And his parents are being attentive when they're seeing the behavior, according to the OP. I'm saying he's a 4 year old who doesn't have the cognative ability to be a bully. I'm not excusing his behavior. And if there are OTHER avenues available to teach him before socially excluding him - then it should be done.

Realistically, though, are those "other avenues" available to the OP? Or just to his parents/family/teachers?  It might be that the best way to get to another avenue is to just exclude him from the party, so the adults in his life learn to take this situation seriously. 

Of course, in this case, if the OP wants to invite the whole class but this one boy, no one should go around rubbing his nose in this fact.  Invitations should be mailed, not given out at school, and the party not discussed in front of him, that kind of thing. 

But I think it's an important lesson for OP to teach her daughter, that you don't have to put up with people who don't treat you right (for whatever reason) and there are ways to do this without being rude.  And the OP's daughter is really the only one that the OP has any control over, or responsibility to, in this situation, I think.

BarensMom

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Re: The good, the bad, and the downright naughty
« Reply #68 on: November 12, 2013, 03:16:35 PM »
True, but the sticking out his tongue is an example of the bad behavior that he exhibits, including his mistreatment of OP's daughter.  I was going to add "and because you're so mean to DD," but thought that would just make him more apt to continue his bullying of her.

Personally, I think OP should call Darius out every time she sees him misbehave, and, if it's in her power, make him face consequences.

MrTango

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Re: The good, the bad, and the downright naughty
« Reply #69 on: November 12, 2013, 03:20:01 PM »
Except that isn't the case. He is not being invited because of how he treats OP's daughter.

And since the OP's Daughter is the Birthday Girl, she shouldn't have to have anyone at her party that treats her the way the boy in question treats her.

bonyk

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Re: The good, the bad, and the downright naughty
« Reply #70 on: November 12, 2013, 04:28:56 PM »
Did you say anything to his father?

What am I going to say? "He stuck his tongue out at me!" Then I sound like a four-year-old.

I would have said very loudly "Darius, I don't like you sticking your tongue out at me. Don't do it again."

I would have said something like this.  I think ignoring it teaches him that as long as his parents don't see it he's in the clear.  Also, if DD noticed she saw you not standing up for yourself.

Two Ravens

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Re: The good, the bad, and the downright naughty
« Reply #71 on: November 12, 2013, 04:40:49 PM »
I think I understand what Goosey is trying to say. Obviously the OP's daughter should not have to put up with Darius's bad behavior at her birthday party, but so often these threads descend into hyperbole. Next we will have people labeling him a future serial killer.

He's a poorly behaved little boy. He may get better or worse. He might be a future bully or an Eagle Scout. Exclude him because it is necessary, but don't be gleeful about it.

Goosey

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Re: The good, the bad, and the downright naughty
« Reply #72 on: November 12, 2013, 04:51:57 PM »
I think I understand what Goosey is trying to say. Obviously the OP's daughter should not have to put up with Darius's bad behavior at her birthday party, but so often these threads descend into hyperbole. Next we will have people labeling him a future serial killer.

He's a poorly behaved little boy. He may get better or worse. He might be a future bully or an Eagle Scout. Exclude him because it is necessary, but don't be gleeful about it.

That's much better put, but what I was going for. Thanks.

TootsNYC

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Re: The good, the bad, and the downright naughty
« Reply #73 on: November 12, 2013, 04:59:34 PM »
Did you say anything to his father?

What am I going to say? "He stuck his tongue out at me!" Then I sound like a four-year-old.

I would have said very loudly "Darius, I don't like you sticking your tongue out at me. Don't do it again."


Yep! Then you're asserting your own rights, and in a way that his father can hear. Use a similar technique every time *you* see him act meanly toward your girl. And encourage her to say something.

And a quiet word with his parents later might work as well. "I see that you are working with Darius on his expressions of hostility toward my daughter, and toward me. I appreciate that. But I need to tell you that they are not working nearly well enough. When you are not looking, he lashes out again--it appears very calculated in terms of feeling that he can get away with it because you aren't looking. Please consider what other methods might actually *be* effective, because I'm tired of my daughter facing that nastiness every single day. And I don't appreciate it either."

But I'd also say--be sure to temper this with strong friendliness at the every remotely positive interaction. It's basic behavior modification.
   And, he'll respect your negative reinforcement more if he knows that positive reinforcement exists alongside it.

artk2002

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Re: The good, the bad, and the downright naughty
« Reply #74 on: November 12, 2013, 06:33:31 PM »
That's fine, but I do think that if it's at all reasonable to do something to not single out Darius, the OP should do that. There's been a lot of "Psh. Whatever, who cares about Darius, the bully!" posts. Well, Darius is just a little boy. We should all care - at least a little bit.

I care, I just don't feel it's the OP's place to solve his problems; certainly not at the expense of OP's own child.
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