Author Topic: Dessert wars  (Read 15576 times)

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metallicafan

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Re: Dessert wars
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2013, 11:23:03 AM »
I am on Team Tina.  Tom is being a total jerk.  I would stay out of it.

TootsNYC

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Re: Dessert wars
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2013, 11:23:32 AM »
Quote
I think that they both have points...

I disagree.

I think that only Tina has a point.

Tom is an utter bacon-fed knave.

You could tell him that. Well, no, not really, but you could stop thinking of him as "having a point," and instead simply say, "yeah, I know, Tom, it really sucks to have [celiac/whatever]. I can't imagine how frustrated and angry that must make you at times. But Tina isn't your enemy, and if you can't handle the emotions, you'll need to stay home. Because you don't have a point. You're just wrong."

The *only* thing Tina has done wrong at all is to even argue (she's a perfect candidate for the advice, "don't JADE"). She's generous to go get Tom a gluten-free cupcake (or whatever it is), what a nice lady!

Now she should simply be amused at him. Frankly, he's laughable.


But basically Tina should simply refuse to speak of the topic anymore (as should you), with anyone--but especially with Tom.

There's nothing more to talk about. And anyone who brings it up should be told: "I am not having conversations on this. If you are going to persist in talking about it in ANY way, I am going to have to un-invite you."

In fact, it's time for her to call Tom and say, "Listen--are you going to be able to be pleasant company at my birthday party? Will you be able to keep your mouth shut about the cake? Because if not, then I'm afraid I'll have to un-invite you."

Tom is an utter, complete, and total boor.

And Tina is totally, completely and utterly entitled to call him "a big baby" and to speak of him in whatever scornful tone she wants.

And if you don't want to hear her talk about him that way, maybe you should be saying, "Let's just not talk about this anymore--put it out of your mind. Let's talk about something else, because this conversation is unpleasant."

I did once have my mom tell me that I needed to be aware of how my resentment of someone was changing my personality for the worse--and that since my roommate tat the time was the one creating all the angst for me, I needed to either resolve things with her, or kick her out.

That's something a friend could mention to Tina: "You're letting Tom turn you into a snarky, ungenerous person. He's wrong, of course he's wrong--but when you fixate on him, I hear a tone of voice from you that's totally at odds with who you are really. Can you find a way to mentally move on from him? Even if it means you dis-invite him from the party."

And if she disinvites you, do your part to play down the drama. "Yes, well, Tom wasn't going to enjoy the party, because he's still really struggling with the adjustment of changing his diet so firmly."

TootsNYC

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Re: Dessert wars
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2013, 11:26:14 AM »
I am newly diagnosed w/ celiac. I cry because I can't eat cake anymore. Literally. Tears.

I get unreasonably and fiercely angry when I go out to eat and realize that the ONLY things I can safely have are a salad and a baked potato. I'm normally a quite nice person, and I have to struggle harder than I've ever struggled before to not be a Female Dog at restaurants. (sorry--tried to find a less-offensive word, but none of them have the same connotations)

To *always* have the awareness that everything edible around me is -poisonous- to me, that's the hardest thing. I haven't had a big trouble w/ willpower, but I struggle with grief at every meal.

But there's no moral superiority to this--I'd actually have much more sympathy with a vegan who is upset by other people's eating of meat than I do with Tom. He's stuck in the "anger" phase and is alienating everyone who could help him.

Tom is handling his grief badly--maybe by identifying it for what it is, you can help him a little. And that might be a way to help Tina come to terms with it and find a way to be in a more settled frame of mind while she *still lives the proper boundaries.* 

And by identifying it as such, you  might be able to help other people in the family/friends circle frame THEIR reactions in a way that's lower in the drama quotient.

jmarvellous

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Re: Dessert wars
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2013, 11:27:40 AM »
Actually, "Suck it up, buttercup! This party is not about you, so either go and be gracious or don't go." seems like a highly appropriate response. It's what I'd say.

Those of us with allergies and different dietary choices do need to suck it up or not go, or find our own solutions that don't require a ton of work from our hosts. And we certainly don't need to insult them or "require" something different from them.

Curious Cat

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Re: Dessert wars
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2013, 11:29:06 AM »
I am newly diagnosed w/ celiac. I cry because I can't eat cake anymore. Literally. Tears.

I get unreasonably and fiercely angry when I go out to eat and realize that the ONLY things I can safely have are a salad and a baked potato. I'm normally a quite nice person, and I have to struggle harder than I've ever struggled before to not be a Female Dog at restaurants. (sorry--tried to find a less-offensive word, but none of them have the same connotations)

To *always* have the awareness that everything edible around me is -poisonous- to me, that's the hardest thing. I haven't had a big trouble w/ willpower, but I struggle with grief at every meal.

But there's no moral superiority to this--I'd actually have much more sympathy with a vegan who is upset by other people's eating of meat than I do with Tom. He's stuck in the "anger" phase and is alienating everyone who could help him.

Tom is handling his grief badly--maybe by identifying it for what it is, you can help him a little. And that might be a way to help Tina come to terms with it and find a way to be in a more settled frame of mind while she *still lives the proper boundaries.* 

And by identifying it as such, you  might be able to help other people in the family/friends circle frame THEIR reactions in a way that's lower in the drama quotient.

How odd.  I live in the middle of nowhere and just about every restaurant here has gluten free options - gluten free bread, pasta, etc.  I'm surprised you have such a hard time in NYC, I would think it would be fairly easy to find multiple places that can accommodate you.

SamiHami

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Re: Dessert wars
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2013, 11:42:52 AM »
I am newly diagnosed w/ celiac. I cry because I can't eat cake anymore. Literally. Tears.

I get unreasonably and fiercely angry when I go out to eat and realize that the ONLY things I can safely have are a salad and a baked potato. I'm normally a quite nice person, and I have to struggle harder than I've ever struggled before to not be a Female Dog at restaurants. (sorry--tried to find a less-offensive word, but none of them have the same connotations)

To *always* have the awareness that everything edible around me is -poisonous- to me, that's the hardest thing. I haven't had a big trouble w/ willpower, but I struggle with grief at every meal.

But there's no moral superiority to this--I'd actually have much more sympathy with a vegan who is upset by other people's eating of meat than I do with Tom. He's stuck in the "anger" phase and is alienating everyone who could help him.

Tom is handling his grief badly--maybe by identifying it for what it is, you can help him a little. And that might be a way to help Tina come to terms with it and find a way to be in a more settled frame of mind while she *still lives the proper boundaries.* 

And by identifying it as such, you  might be able to help other people in the family/friends circle frame THEIR reactions in a way that's lower in the drama quotient.

How odd.  I live in the middle of nowhere and just about every restaurant here has gluten free options - gluten free bread, pasta, etc.  I'm surprised you have such a hard time in NYC, I would think it would be fairly easy to find multiple places that can accommodate you.

I've been GF for a few years now and I can completely understand Toots' feelings. I felt the same way in the beginning...deprived, sad and thinking of the things I can't have anymore. But I can say this; it does get easier with time. I've found, as I'm sure Toots will, which restaurants are okay for me, which grocery stores carry which GF products and so on. An added benefit (for me, anyway) is that it's forced me to be more creative in the kitchen. I've learned how to cook tons of GF stuff that is really, really good. In fact, my birthday is this coming Wednesday and one of the gifts DH gave me is a Gluten Free bread machine cookbook. It has 125 different recipes and with a bread machine, it's really easy.

And Toots, if it makes you feel any better at all-there is one GF pizza out there that actually tastes really, really good. I get Udi's GF pepperoni pizza and have one every weekend. They are delicious and carried in some mainstream supermarkets, not just "healthy" stores. In my area BiLo has it, as well as a lot of other good GF stuff.

What have you got? Is it food? Is it for me? I want it whatever it is!

Thipu1

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Re: Dessert wars
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2013, 11:44:45 AM »
In NYC you can find places to eat that can accommodate just about any dietary restriction.  Just a few blocks away from our house is a crepe place.  Everything there is gluten-free.   

Tom is being Drama King.  His objection to THE CAKE is about as rational as an abstainer complaining because he can't have champagne at a Wedding reception. 

Back away and let Tina and Tom fight it out. 

TootsNYC

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Re: Dessert wars
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2013, 11:45:19 AM »
My point is not that I have such a hard time finding food.

Though I sometimes can have that difficulty--we went to our favorite burger place, which used to be a diner, and I realized, they grill everything on the same counter-top-size griddle, and they fry everything in the same oil, so it's all contaminated. I could have a salad and a baked potato.


But my point is that *every* *single* *time* I eat--whether it is at home or at a restaurant or at someone else's house--I have to spend time and energy trying to decide whether I think the food will poison me. It's serious stuff--you can die much earlier as a result of celiac.

Even when I am buying gluten-free pizza, I am dwelling in that place--a place where food is poison.

It's emotionally very draining. I can't ever escape from that danger. And I am reminded at every meal of all the great things I can't eat anymore.

And actually I have that angry reaction every time, at every restaurant. Starting from the time we start to say, "Which restaurant?"

So the grief is real. And I get reminded of it at every meal.

I can totally understand Tom's frustration, and even his anger.

He needs the people around him to model the proper attitude.

They should all be sympathetic ("yes, it stinks!" and not dismissive: "suck it up" or "you can find a restaurant that can accommodate you"--when Tom asks for advice, *then* you can tell him all that "encouraging" stuff).

Because it *does* stink. Big time. That grief is real. Grief for an uncomplicated life, for foods you can't eat anymore--even grief for your basic sense of safety.

Food is poison. Live with that--kherbert knows whereof I speak, probably--that loss of any sense of safety. That's hard. It's hard for Tom.

So sympathy will probably help him, actually--help him identify what he's dealing with inside. And if he receives some sympathy, he might find it easier to go back to being a reasonable human being.

But recognizing that this is *not* a rational, sensible argument, but instead is an emotional, irrational one, might help Tina and other relatives stop taking his unreasonable points so seriously.

"My sympathies, Tom--that must be hard. But of course other people are going to still have gluten-containing stuff available for them. I'm sure it'll be tough, but I'm also sure that you'll be able to enjoy the party anyway."

Edited to add: You know what, strike that. That's patronizing. Just say, "I'm sorry, Tom--it must stink." Flat-out, unadulterated sympathy is what Tom needs.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 03:14:10 PM by TootsNYC »

Curious Cat

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Re: Dessert wars
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2013, 11:47:31 AM »
Toots your post made me so sad.  Any way you could avoid restaurants until you've got things a little more under control? It must be miserable to be so frustrated all the time.

Outdoor Girl

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Re: Dessert wars
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2013, 11:57:05 AM »
Tom has celiac's and has always had wheat gluten issues, but in the past has also had no problems with the occasional "indulgence".  Now, however, he is also a newly fledged vegan and is deep in the "righteous" phase of that conversion...   And he is really alienating a lot of people with it, including Tina.  (And why he is fixated totally on The Cake and is ignoring the other dishes there that will also contain animal products I have no idea...)

It isn't the GF that Tom is ranting about; it is his new conversion to veganism.  If he were newly diagnosed celiac, I'd have some sympathy for him.  But being righteous about his veganism?  Not so much.

If Tina decides, 'Fine, I won't make the dingdangity cake', Tom may next insist that all dishes she's serving be vegan.

This is a 'Suck it up, buttercup' situation.  Tom is not going to convert everyone to veganism and is going to have to learn to live with the people around him eating meat and animal products.  The only time he can set the menu is if he is the one throwing the party.  And I would be perfectly happy to attend and eat what interests me and avoid the rest.  (I don't eat meat substitutes or soy based things.)
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DavidH

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Re: Dessert wars
« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2013, 12:01:48 PM »
If it were Tom's birthday I'd have sympathy for him and I'd even go so far as to say that serving a birthday cake the guest of honor can't eat is rude.  However, this is not the case here.  I have sympathy for the gluten free issue as well, but when you add vegan by choice to it, it is way far over the top.  This isn't a case of leaving the croutons out of the salad or dressing on the side and letting guests add them individually, a gluten free, vegan cake is not going to be nearly the same as a traditional one. 

This sounds like an event he should decline rather than attend and feel slighted. 


TootsNYC

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Re: Dessert wars
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2013, 12:03:07 PM »
I do think she should un-invite him. "For his own good," since he wouldn't be comfortable at the party. And if anyone gives her trouble about it she should say, "Well, he hasn't been able to come to terms with his veganism and co-existing with the rest of us, so he wouldn't be very good company."

And a few other people (like you, OP?) should back her up on it. "Tom, you wouldn't be able to enjoy yourself anyway, and the rest of us would have the party ruined by hearing you complain all night. It's just better all the way around. Maybe next year, when you're in a better frame of mind."

fountainsoflettuce

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Re: Dessert wars
« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2013, 01:46:53 PM »
Toots,
 After reading your last few posts, I think that you're overinflating the original scenario and don't completely agree with your opinion.  With that said, however, I am more concerned that  you literally cry over cake.  Perhaps you should talk to someone about your food issues.   

As for Tom, I'm on Tina's side.   And this comes from someone with food allergies.  I can't eat it, oh well.  I'll find something else to eat or will bring my own food. 

Hmmmmm

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Re: Dessert wars
« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2013, 02:29:33 PM »
Tom needs to be in the SS thread.

I actually had to check which topic I was reading because this sounds so SS. Are Tom and Tina siblings or married and this is the family favorite recipe that Tom craves but can no longer have? Only way I can figure out how Tom would even think his has one iota of say in what is served.

So if one vegetarian attends no meat would be served according to Tom's logic.

If I were you I'd tell Tom he is not being a gracious guest. A gracious guest appreciate any amount of hospitality offered and does not complain to the host or to other guests. 


TheBardess

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Re: Dessert wars
« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2013, 02:54:24 PM »
My point is not that I have such a hard time finding food.

Though I sometimes can have that difficulty--we went to our favorite burger place, which used to be a diner, and I realized, they grill everything on the same counter-top-size griddle, and they fry everything in the same oil, so it's all contaminated. I could have a salad and a baked potato.


But my point is that *every* *single* *time* I eat--whether it is at home or at a restaurant or at someone else's house--I have to spend time and energy trying to decide whether I think the food will poison me. It's serious stuff--you can die much earlier as a result of celiac.

Even when I am buying gluten-free pizza, I am dwelling in that place--a place where food is poison.

It's emotionally very draining. I can't ever escape from that danger. And I am reminded at every meal of all the great things I can't eat anymore.

And actually I have that angry reaction every time, at every restaurant. Starting from the time we start to say, "Which restaurant?"

So the grief is real. And I get reminded of it at every meal.

I can totally understand Tom's frustration, and even his anger.

He needs the people around him to model the proper attitude.

They should all be sympathetic ("yes, it stinks!" and not dismissive: "suck it up" or "you can find a restaurant that can accommodate you," which isn't any more acceptable in the face of grief than telling a woman "you can have another child" after a miscarriage--when Tom asks for advice, *then* you can tell him all that "encouraging" stuff).

Because it *does* stink. Big time. That grief is real. Grief for an uncomplicated life, for foods you can't eat anymore--even grief for your basic sense of safety.

Food is poison. Live with that--kherbert knows whereof I speak, probably--that loss of any sense of safety. That's hard. It's hard for Tom.

So sympathy will probably help him, actually--help him identify what he's dealing with inside. And if he receives some sympathy, he might find it easier to go back to being a reasonable human being.

But recognizing that this is *not* a rational, sensible argument, but instead is an emotional, irrational one, might help Tina and other relatives stop taking his unreasonable points so seriously.

"My sympathies, Tom--that must be hard. But of course other people are going to still have gluten-containing stuff available for them. I'm sure it'll be tough, but I'm also sure that you'll be able to enjoy the party anyway."

Edited to add: You know what, strike that. That's patronizing. Just say, "I'm sorry, Tom--it must stink." Flat-out, unadulterated sympathy is what Tom needs.

I've been debating whether or not to post this, but ultimately decided I needed to say something. Toots, to put it bluntly, this comparison is grossly offensive. I understand that having to transition to a gluten-free lifestyle is difficult and that dealing with chronic health concerns is never fun or easy. I understand that there must be sadness, anger, and frustration involved at times. That being said, the loss of the ability to eat pasta is not anywhere close to the loss of a pregnancy, nor is the "grief" at missing out on cake even remotely comparable to the grief and sorrow felt after losing a child. Similarly, saying to someone "Hey, it's not all bad. There are lots of places that cater to gluten-free folks these days" anywhere close to suggesting to a grieving mother that her beloved and wanted child can be easily replaced with another one. The comparison of these two scenarios is so completely offensive, insensitive, and inappropriate I almost can't put it into words.
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