Author Topic: I don't want that person in my house UPDATE Post #95, Pg 7  (Read 15384 times)

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sparksals

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Re: I don't want that person in my house
« Reply #60 on: December 06, 2013, 12:41:55 PM »
I don't think it's rude to ask depending on the all the people involved, the host's personality, and the circumstances.  My family and friends have all done it.  For example, if Claire had been a wonderful person and she and the OP/bridesmaids had great time at the wedding.  But in this case, I can't believe Jenny would even ask.

But surely if you use the etiquette-approved approach, your family and friends will offer on their own.

You may think the circumstances are one way, and the hosts' personality would allow it, but you do not know all there is, and you are still putting them on the spot. What if this time they want to restrict the gathering to close friends--but they feel they can't say no to you, since you've asked?

Generous people whose personality would make them want to include your friend will do so if you leave the hint out there, and you haven't actually but them on the spot or forced them to say no.

Surely my friends would see that approach as passive agressive - because it is -  and would wonder why I didn't just come out and ask instead of dropping hints. If they want to say no they can say no. It's done quite frequently in my cirlces. Asking if you can bring someone to an informal get together isn't putting someone on the spot any more than asking someone to come to the party is.


There is a friend of a friend who has been to my house twice under those circumstances. After I decided I didn't want him in my house any more I was direct with them, and their roomate. "Hey, I know we usually have a the-more-the-merrier type thing going on and if I invite one of you I generally expect all of you ... but please don't bring Him to my house. He was kind of rude and really rubbed me the wrong way. I'll be polite if I ever see him - just not at my house."


I don't think it is PA or dropping hints.  The proper thing for the guest to do is to decline and give the reason why.  That leaves room for the host to say to bring the person or sorry next time.  Nothing PA about it. 

sparksals

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Re: I don't want that person in my house
« Reply #61 on: December 06, 2013, 12:44:00 PM »
I don't know why there's so much insistence that if an answer might be "no", it's rude to ask. I don't think asking puts someone on the spot. If you can't answer right away, you can say, "Oh, well - let me get a head count and I'll call you back!"

If you have to say no, say no. The asker knew that was a possibility when they asked.


Not necessarily.  They might think the person would say yes and be put out when the answer is no.  I always feel on the spot and that I MUST say yes if people ask, especially if I don't know them well.


sparksals

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Re: I don't want that person in my house
« Reply #62 on: December 06, 2013, 12:45:08 PM »
I would think that the guest could say, "Oh, I'd love to, but I think I'd better say no--my cousin is visiting from out of town, and I can't really leave them home alone."

Any generous host would assume that an invitation to the cousin would be welcome.

I've never agreed with the "it's not rude to ask" idea. There are situation in which it truly "doesn't hurt to ask," but they're never about someone else's hospitality. (They're stuff like, can I get an extra pat of butter at the restaurant; do they have this in a size 8 in the back; etc.)


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turnip

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Re: I don't want that person in my house
« Reply #63 on: December 06, 2013, 01:03:44 PM »
I would think that the guest could say, "Oh, I'd love to, but I think I'd better say no--my cousin is visiting from out of town, and I can't really leave them home alone."

Any generous host would assume that an invitation to the cousin would be welcome.

I've never agreed with the "it's not rude to ask" idea. There are situation in which it truly "doesn't hurt to ask," but they're never about someone else's hospitality. (They're stuff like, can I get an extra pat of butter at the restaurant; do they have this in a size 8 in the back; etc.)

Goodness - didn't we just have one ( or more ) long threads about whether or not "I can't go" need more explanation.  One of the frequent assertions is that if you don't want to go somewhere, you should say something vague like "I'm sorry I can't make it due to <XYZ>" and a polite asker will not probe for more details but accept that answer as final.

Potential Guest: "I can't come because my cousin is in town"
Potential Host: "That's OK! Cousin can come too!"
50% of Guests think "I'm so glad <host> asked, we really wanted to come!"
50% of Guests think "Darn <host> is rude, I really don't want to go and now I have to find _another_ reason!"


Mikayla

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Re: I don't want that person in my house
« Reply #64 on: December 06, 2013, 01:08:54 PM »
On the issue of whether it's rude to ask, I think it's a know your audience thing.  When my sis hosts Christmas, I've had a last minute guest I've asked her about, and she would have been annoyed if I had NOT mentioned it.

But on Jenny, there's a backstory here.  It's not like the cousin she's been talking about for years and she knows OP would love to meet him.  Rather, she knows her sister better than anyone, and she knows at least part of the wedding behavior story. 

So if she just asked without giving OP an easy out (like "I'll understand completely if this doesn't work for you"), then not only was she rude, it was a communication fail.  She can't just dump this in a friend's lap and make the friend be responsible for the awkwardness she just created with her careless phrasing.  This is one of my pet peeves.

Outdoor Girl

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Re: I don't want that person in my house
« Reply #65 on: December 06, 2013, 01:18:18 PM »
I agree that it is situational whether or not it is rude to ask.  Jenny was rude; she knows the OP doesn't like Claire and asking put her on the spot.  But if it had been her 3rd cousin, once removed, that Jenny wanted to introduce to all her friends and said cousin was a nice, polite individual?  I think it would be OK.

Years ago, my Mom was hosting Thanksgiving and had invited another family.  Their daughter would be home from university and so would be joining us.  Daughter invited a foreign student, with no where else to go, home with her, knowing that my Mom wouldn't mind another body at the table.  She did call and ask Mom if it was OK, once she was home, a couple of days before the dinner.  It didn't hurt that said student was the nationality of my Mom's paternal side of the family.  I'm sure daughter was prepared to stay home with her friend if she needed to.

The only stress for my Mom would be if the addition made 13 at the table.  Then she'd be wracking her brain, trying to figure out who might not have somewhere to go so she could invite them to make it 14.  That happened more than once.  For a very down to earth, no nonsense lady, she had a lot of superstitions.   :)
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Take2

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Re: I don't want that person in my house
« Reply #66 on: December 06, 2013, 01:20:25 PM »
I think the idea of asking if someone can come to an open house party depends on the relationship. I have close friends who would ask, casual friends who probably wouldn't. If I was in someone's wedding or they in mine, I would think that's a close enough relationship to have a less formal interaction.

But while I wouldn't mind if a dear friend asked, I would also expect her to graciously accept my answer of yes or no. Otherwise, she wasn't really asking, but demanding that I invite a specific person to my party in my home.

TootsNYC

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Re: I don't want that person in my house
« Reply #67 on: December 06, 2013, 01:23:00 PM »
I would think that the guest could say, "Oh, I'd love to, but I think I'd better say no--my cousin is visiting from out of town, and I can't really leave them home alone."

Any generous host would assume that an invitation to the cousin would be welcome.

I've never agreed with the "it's not rude to ask" idea. There are situation in which it truly "doesn't hurt to ask," but they're never about someone else's hospitality. (They're stuff like, can I get an extra pat of butter at the restaurant; do they have this in a size 8 in the back; etc.)

Goodness - didn't we just have one ( or more ) long threads about whether or not "I can't go" need more explanation.  One of the frequent assertions is that if you don't want to go somewhere, you should say something vague like "I'm sorry I can't make it due to <XYZ>" and a polite asker will not probe for more details but accept that answer as final.



I would think that the potential guest would choose wording that would indicate the message -they- want to send. The guest has all the power in terms of choosing what they want to communicate. They can give detail--or not--as they choose.

And enthusiatic or wistful, "I wish I could, but my cousin is visiting, I can't leave them by themselves" would say to me, "You could invite my cousin!" (or sister, in this case)

A "My cousin is visiting, and we have plans for that night" would make me think that an invitation might be declined, and I might not even offer.

And "I'm sorry, but I'm busy" would make me say, "Oh, you're busy, rats, another time then."

And of course the extra explanation is not *needed*, but it's a very useful tool. One that the guest can wield--or not--as she/he wishes.



Quote

Potential Guest: "I can't come because my cousin is in town"
Potential Host: "That's OK! Cousin can come too!"
50% of Guests think "I'm so glad <host> asked, we really wanted to come!"
50% of Guests think "Darn <host> is rude, I really don't want to go and now I have to find _another_ reason!"

But the guest who really didn't want to come could have chosen a different answer that would stop the invitation. Or, now the guest can simply elaborate on the _same_ reason, "Oh, no, I'm sorry, we have plans for that night already--sorry I wasn't clear."

Again--the guest has all the power. (Maybe they don't have the skill--in which case, they will have to simply come up with another phrase to use when the invitation is extended to the cousin--and hopefully they'll build on that skill.) And it cannot possibly be rude to extend an invitation!!

camlan

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Re: I don't want that person in my house
« Reply #68 on: December 06, 2013, 01:30:41 PM »
I think that the fact that the OP has come here to ask this question indicates that she does feel put on the spot about her friend asking if Claire can attend the party.

It is even more of a faux pas on the part of the friend, because the friend knows there have been problems between Claire and the OP, and Claire and the bridesmaids who are also invited to the party.

The bottom line, for me, is that you don't angle for invitations to someone else's party.
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Roe

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Re: I don't want that person in my house
« Reply #69 on: December 06, 2013, 02:08:35 PM »
I don't think it's rude to ask depending on the all the people involved, the host's personality, and the circumstances.  My family and friends have all done it.  For example, if Claire had been a wonderful person and she and the OP/bridesmaids had great time at the wedding.  But in this case, I can't believe Jenny would even ask.

But surely if you use the etiquette-approved approach, your family and friends will offer on their own.

You may think the circumstances are one way, and the hosts' personality would allow it, but you do not know all there is, and you are still putting them on the spot. What if this time they want to restrict the gathering to close friends--but they feel they can't say no to you, since you've asked?

Generous people whose personality would make them want to include your friend will do so if you leave the hint out there, and you haven't actually but them on the spot or forced them to say no.

I guess it just depends on how things are done in your circle (and in my case, culture too).


I think it is a generational thing.  Toots and I are approximately the same generation/age.  I was raised that in no certain terms do you EVER ask b/c it puts the host on the spot.  It just.is.not.done. 


Now, it seems many are of the opposite attitude and I wonder if those are younger.  I always cringe when I see people say it is ok to ask.  To me, it never is.


Not sure what age range you are thinking about but I loathe the idea that "it never hurts to ask."  In this situation, esp...it's definitely rude, rude, rude to ask! 

Her friend has put the OP in a very uncomfortable situation.  The OP shouldn't have to say yes or no as the question, itself, shouldn't have been asked. 


rose red

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Re: I don't want that person in my house
« Reply #70 on: December 06, 2013, 02:34:45 PM »
I don't think it's a generational since members of my circle who are 70+ does it too.  Again, it's a know your circle/audience thing.  Of course none of us would dream of asking the boss if we can bring our best friend to his dinner party.  In my experience, etiquette with friends and family who you know really well are not so strict; you just *know* what you can and can't ask, and they know the same with you in return.

Tea Drinker

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Re: I don't want that person in my house
« Reply #71 on: December 06, 2013, 11:16:29 PM »
My girlfriend has asked if she can bring me to open house style parties, because we live in different cities, so her friends (even if they've met me) aren't going to think of me, the way they would if we lived together. I don't know if the answer is sometimes "no"; I suspect she checks with them first, something like "Tea Drinker might be visiting that weekend, is it okay if I bring her along?" rather than "so-and-so is having a party, do you want to come that weekend or would you rather visit the weekend before or after?"

If the host was someone she had reason to think I don't get along with (analogous to the OP's situation), she wouldn't be angling for an invitation, she would say "sorry, I have other plans that weekend," because it wouldn't be fun for her, me, or the host to put us all in the same place.

That's the weird thing about this: was OP's friend sufficiently oblivious that she doesn't realize that Claire dislikes OP, or used to, and behaved in ways that guaranteed that OP wouldn't like her either?
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sparksals

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Re: I don't want that person in my house
« Reply #72 on: December 07, 2013, 02:30:53 AM »
I agree that it is situational whether or not it is rude to ask.  Jenny was rude; she knows the OP doesn't like Claire and asking put her on the spot.  But if it had been her 3rd cousin, once removed, that Jenny wanted to introduce to all her friends and said cousin was a nice, polite individual?  I think it would be OK.

Years ago, my Mom was hosting Thanksgiving and had invited another family.  Their daughter would be home from university and so would be joining us.  Daughter invited a foreign student, with no where else to go, home with her, knowing that my Mom wouldn't mind another body at the table.  She did call and ask Mom if it was OK, once she was home, a couple of days before the dinner.  It didn't hurt that said student was the nationality of my Mom's paternal side of the family.  I'm sure daughter was prepared to stay home with her friend if she needed to.

The only stress for my Mom would be if the addition made 13 at the table.  Then she'd be wracking her brain, trying to figure out who might not have somewhere to go so she could invite them to make it 14.  That happened more than once.  For a very down to earth, no nonsense lady, she had a lot of superstitions.   :)


This would be a problem for me.  I have 8 chairs and only 8 chairs. Christmas and TG are the only sit down dinners I do, so if I am preparing a major holiday dinner and someone springs on me another guest, I may not have the seat, plate etc for them... this is why it puts the host on the spot.  It would put me in hugely uncomfortable position to spring an extra guest on me I have no room for and I have to say no.   That makes me look very unhospitable.

sparksals

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Re: I don't want that person in my house
« Reply #73 on: December 07, 2013, 02:32:45 AM »
I don't think it's rude to ask depending on the all the people involved, the host's personality, and the circumstances.  My family and friends have all done it.  For example, if Claire had been a wonderful person and she and the OP/bridesmaids had great time at the wedding.  But in this case, I can't believe Jenny would even ask.

But surely if you use the etiquette-approved approach, your family and friends will offer on their own.

You may think the circumstances are one way, and the hosts' personality would allow it, but you do not know all there is, and you are still putting them on the spot. What if this time they want to restrict the gathering to close friends--but they feel they can't say no to you, since you've asked?

Generous people whose personality would make them want to include your friend will do so if you leave the hint out there, and you haven't actually but them on the spot or forced them to say no.

I guess it just depends on how things are done in your circle (and in my case, culture too).


I think it is a generational thing.  Toots and I are approximately the same generation/age.  I was raised that in no certain terms do you EVER ask b/c it puts the host on the spot.  It just.is.not.done. 


Now, it seems many are of the opposite attitude and I wonder if those are younger.  I always cringe when I see people say it is ok to ask.  To me, it never is.


Not sure what age range you are thinking about but I loathe the idea that "it never hurts to ask."  In this situation, esp...it's definitely rude, rude, rude to ask! 

Her friend has put the OP in a very uncomfortable situation.  The OP shouldn't have to say yes or no as the question, itself, shouldn't have been asked.


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Outdoor Girl

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Re: I don't want that person in my house
« Reply #74 on: December 07, 2013, 09:41:53 AM »
I agree that it is situational whether or not it is rude to ask.  Jenny was rude; she knows the OP doesn't like Claire and asking put her on the spot.  But if it had been her 3rd cousin, once removed, that Jenny wanted to introduce to all her friends and said cousin was a nice, polite individual?  I think it would be OK.

Years ago, my Mom was hosting Thanksgiving and had invited another family.  Their daughter would be home from university and so would be joining us.  Daughter invited a foreign student, with no where else to go, home with her, knowing that my Mom wouldn't mind another body at the table.  She did call and ask Mom if it was OK, once she was home, a couple of days before the dinner.  It didn't hurt that said student was the nationality of my Mom's paternal side of the family.  I'm sure daughter was prepared to stay home with her friend if she needed to.

The only stress for my Mom would be if the addition made 13 at the table.  Then she'd be wracking her brain, trying to figure out who might not have somewhere to go so she could invite them to make it 14.  That happened more than once.  For a very down to earth, no nonsense lady, she had a lot of superstitions.   :)


This would be a problem for me.  I have 8 chairs and only 8 chairs. Christmas and TG are the only sit down dinners I do, so if I am preparing a major holiday dinner and someone springs on me another guest, I may not have the seat, plate etc for them... this is why it puts the host on the spot.  It would put me in hugely uncomfortable position to spring an extra guest on me I have no room for and I have to say no.   That makes me look very unhospitable.

But again, it is situational.  If I know you well, I know that you couldn't fit someone else in.  But everyone knew that my Mom was a collector of strays and orphans on holidays, cooked enough food to feed an army and wouldn't object to one more.  If it was a formal dinner party (and she had those, too), it never happened that someone would bring an extra.
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