Author Topic: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest - UPDATE #219  (Read 26005 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

GlassHalfFull

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 280
Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest (who was brought along, nonetheless)
« Reply #165 on: December 15, 2013, 07:07:16 PM »
Agreed.  This is an 89-year old woman, facing her last Thanksgiving holiday before going into assisted living, wanting to host her family "one last time."  It occurred to me that this woman wanted only her family for this dinner because they would be more accepting of any lapses in her hospitality and be willing to assist when needed.  Perhaps the aunt did not want a "new" person in her home because, frankly, she did not want a stranger to see that her home wasn't up to its former standards or that most of her stuff is in packing boxes. Or she didn't want a stranger to experience what may have been a dinner that wasn't up to previous levels.

Just imagine, Aunt was thinking, "Thank diety, it's only family.  They won't mind if the gravy has lumps or the pie crust is too brown.  Oh, and my back was hurting, so I wasn't able to dust the table or wash the good dishes beforehand - I'll ask great-niece to help me with that."  Then, the doorbell rings, and it's Larry foisting a strange girl on her.  Aunt would have every right to be upset.

Or perhaps it was simply that she wanted a comfortable, close, family feeling for her last hosted holiday.  Either or any way, I'm with the majority; Larry is an entitled heel who should have made alternative plans if his new girlfriend's exclusion took precedence for him over his aunt's wishes.  An exclusion that did indeed sound global, not just anti-Larry, else the aunt would've said, "Everyone except for Larry's new girlfriend is invited"  She even excluded old friends for Pete's sake! 

secretrebel

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1021
Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest (who was brought along, nonetheless)
« Reply #166 on: December 16, 2013, 07:44:55 AM »
Secretrebel, in many cases, an elderly person is emotionally fragile, especially considering the myriad health problems they face.  This aunt is in a position of giving up her home and her independence.

I don't know how old you are or if you've ever had close elderly relatives, but imagine that someday you will be in this aunt's position...

BarensMom, I'm afraid I found this post very patronising. Yes, I have elderly relations. I do not lack imagination or compassion. And I have said all along that I don't think Larry should have brought his fiancÚ when she was not welcome.

In this thread I have simply being trying to point out that it is judgemental and unwelcoming to describe Larry's girlfriend as a "total stranger", "not family" and not in a serious relationship (all of which are views that have been expressed in this thread) and for the holiday to be considered 'ruined' by her attendance. It is those views I have been responding to.

But I am now going to bow out of this thread because the imagined viewpoint of an elderly woman moving into assisted living has reached a point of hyperbole that makes it impossible to put any alternative perspective without being characterised as a heartless monster.

BarensMom

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2592
Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest (who was brought along, nonetheless)
« Reply #167 on: December 16, 2013, 09:20:16 AM »
Secretrebel, in many cases, an elderly person is emotionally fragile, especially considering the myriad health problems they face.  This aunt is in a position of giving up her home and her independence.

I don't know how old you are or if you've ever had close elderly relatives, but imagine that someday you will be in this aunt's position...

BarensMom, I'm afraid I found this post very patronising. Yes, I have elderly relations. I do not lack imagination or compassion. And I have said all along that I don't think Larry should have brought his fiancÚ when she was not welcome.

In this thread I have simply being trying to point out that it is judgemental and unwelcoming to describe Larry's girlfriend as a "total stranger", "not family" and not in a serious relationship (all of which are views that have been expressed in this thread) and for the holiday to be considered 'ruined' by her attendance. It is those views I have been responding to.

But I am now going to bow out of this thread because the imagined viewpoint of an elderly woman moving into assisted living has reached a point of hyperbole that makes it impossible to put any alternative perspective without being characterised as a heartless monster.

Patronizing?  Calling you a heartless monster?  Really, you think that's what I'm implying?  I'm sorry I came off as being that cruel - that was not my intention.  I don't have the wit nor the right to patronize anyone.

Hyperbole?  No, not really.  My previous post was based on my mother's actual reaction to being introduced to my nephew's new girlfriend at the family dinner.  We didn't even know my nephew had split with his wife (had seen wife the previous week) and nephew had told Mom he wasn't even coming.  Then he arrived with a new girlfriend, who proceeded to go into the fridge without asking and helped herself to the dessert before dinner had been served.  Mom was 80 at the time and their presumption angered and upset her, to the point that she had to go into her bedroom and lie down.

Stormtreader

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1840
Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest (who was brought along, nonetheless)
« Reply #168 on: December 16, 2013, 09:34:59 AM »
You know, people, those posters that think that an elderly lady does not have the right to determine who she hosts in her own home, under the circumstances recounted in the original post, are making me very angry.

As was mentioned in the original post, this is an 89-year-old woman who can no longer live independently and is having to give up her home and most of her possessions to live in an assisted living situation.  She wanted a family-only Thanksgiving, perhaps because she needed assistance and she didn't want a total stranger to see that. Perhaps she didn't want a total stranger in her house if she got emotional at the thought of its being the last family dinner in her home.  Her house may be in the process of packing up and she didn't want a total stranger to see its condition.  She may have wanted only family present because she was going to pass out family heirlooms and having a total stranger present would be inappropriate.

With the elderly people I have known (and there have been many), when they make a request like the above, they always have a good reason.  No one has any right to pass judgement on a woman, that barring any toxicity issues, deserves only our respect and admiration for attempting to make one last meal for her family under difficult circumstances.

Well said, and id like to add something if I may - not all illnesses or hardships are visible or age-related and its not up to other people to decide what someone is capable of doing. Its anyones right to choose who they have in their home, that seemingly-well person may be dealing with hardships of a mental or physical nature that they dont want to share with the world and they shouldnt have to.

TurtleDove

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 5610
Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest (who was brought along, nonetheless)
« Reply #169 on: December 16, 2013, 09:41:00 AM »
Secretrebel, in many cases, an elderly person is emotionally fragile, especially considering the myriad health problems they face.  This aunt is in a position of giving up her home and her independence.

I don't know how old you are or if you've ever had close elderly relatives, but imagine that someday you will be in this aunt's position...

BarensMom, I'm afraid I found this post very patronising. Yes, I have elderly relations. I do not lack imagination or compassion. And I have said all along that I don't think Larry should have brought his fiancÚ when she was not welcome.

In this thread I have simply being trying to point out that it is judgemental and unwelcoming to describe Larry's girlfriend as a "total stranger", "not family" and not in a serious relationship (all of which are views that have been expressed in this thread) and for the holiday to be considered 'ruined' by her attendance. It is those views I have been responding to.

But I am now going to bow out of this thread because the imagined viewpoint of an elderly woman moving into assisted living has reached a point of hyperbole that makes it impossible to put any alternative perspective without being characterised as a heartless monster.

I agree with secretrebel completely.

wolfie

  • I don't know what this is so I am putting random words here
  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 6746
Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest (who was brought along, nonetheless)
« Reply #170 on: December 16, 2013, 09:45:40 AM »
BarensMom, I'm afraid I found this post very patronising. Yes, I have elderly relations. I do not lack imagination or compassion. And I have said all along that I don't think Larry should have brought his fiancÚ when she was not welcome.

When did she become a fiance? In the OP's post she was the new girlfriend after the third marriage ended. I don't have a problem with a new girlfriend being excluded, but I would have a problem with a fiance being excluded.

Teenyweeny

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1664
Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest (who was brought along, nonetheless)
« Reply #171 on: December 16, 2013, 10:03:05 AM »
Secretrebel, in many cases, an elderly person is emotionally fragile, especially considering the myriad health problems they face.  This aunt is in a position of giving up her home and her independence.

I don't know how old you are or if you've ever had close elderly relatives, but imagine that someday you will be in this aunt's position...

BarensMom, I'm afraid I found this post very patronising. Yes, I have elderly relations. I do not lack imagination or compassion. And I have said all along that I don't think Larry should have brought his fiancÚ when she was not welcome.

In this thread I have simply being trying to point out that it is judgemental and unwelcoming to describe Larry's girlfriend as a "total stranger", "not family" and not in a serious relationship (all of which are views that have been expressed in this thread) and for the holiday to be considered 'ruined' by her attendance. It is those views I have been responding to.

But I am now going to bow out of this thread because the imagined viewpoint of an elderly woman moving into assisted living has reached a point of hyperbole that makes it impossible to put any alternative perspective without being characterised as a heartless monster.

I agree with secretrebel completely.

Ditto. I also agree with Perpetua's point that Larry was essentially being shoved between the devil and the deep blue sea, in some ways.

Larry can't bring the GF (and we all agree that he was rude to bring her, uninvited), and Larry probably can't realistically bow out, because it's 'Aunt's last thanksgiving'. I can see how that could be difficult for Larry, if the GF can't go to another celebration.

There's a lot of hyperbole going on here, and a lot of conjecture. What do we know?

1) Larry was asked to not bring his GF. We do not know the length of the relationship ('new' can mean virtually anything), whether or not she is usually included, and whether or not the 'no GF/BF' rule affected anybody apart from Larry.

2) Larry brought his GF. We don't know whether that 'ruined' thanksgiving, and we certainly do not know the mind of a lady who none of us have ever met.


That's it.

Larry could be a serial womaniser who brought some girl he picked up in a bar last night, and aunt could have had a breakdown in the pantry.

Larry could have a serious GF, who he has been seeing for almost a year, and who is usually included but was excluded from this event specifically. Aunt could have rolled her eyes and got somebody to pull up an extra chair.

I could go on. The point is, we don't know anything other than the facts I bolded. Yes, Larry was rude to bring the GF, but he's not necessarily a heinous, old-lady-upsetting monster. Or maybe he is. None of us knows!



VorFemme

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 12623
  • Strolls with scissors! Too tired to run today!
Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest (who was brought along, nonetheless)
« Reply #172 on: December 16, 2013, 10:08:01 AM »
Secretrebel, in many cases, an elderly person is emotionally fragile, especially considering the myriad health problems they face.  This aunt is in a position of giving up her home and her independence.

I don't know how old you are or if you've ever had close elderly relatives, but imagine that someday you will be in this aunt's position...

BarensMom, I'm afraid I found this post very patronising. Yes, I have elderly relations. I do not lack imagination or compassion. And I have said all along that I don't think Larry should have brought his fiancÚ when she was not welcome.

In this thread I have simply being trying to point out that it is judgemental and unwelcoming to describe Larry's girlfriend as a "total stranger", "not family" and not in a serious relationship (all of which are views that have been expressed in this thread) and for the holiday to be considered 'ruined' by her attendance. It is those views I have been responding to.

But I am now going to bow out of this thread because the imagined viewpoint of an elderly woman moving into assisted living has reached a point of hyperbole that makes it impossible to put any alternative perspective without being characterised as a heartless monster.

Patronizing?  Calling you a heartless monster?  Really, you think that's what I'm implying?  I'm sorry I came off as being that cruel - that was not my intention.  I don't have the wit nor the right to patronize anyone.

Hyperbole?  No, not really.  My previous post was based on my mother's actual reaction to being introduced to my nephew's new girlfriend at the family dinner.  We didn't even know my nephew had split with his wife (had seen wife the previous week) and nephew had told Mom he wasn't even coming.  Then he arrived with a new girlfriend, who proceeded to go into the fridge without asking and helped herself to the dessert before dinner had been served.  Mom was 80 at the time and their presumption angered and upset her, to the point that she had to go into her bedroom and lie down.


That explains a lot about your perspective on the matter.

I agree that your brother was rude to break up with his wife that way and "tell" his family that he had done so by showing up with a new GF who was rude enough to help herself to dessert from the fridge BEFORE dinner.  Those two rudes would have me in in my room with the door shut for a while, too - and I'm ONLY 56!

Not that my son is married and DD seems to be extremely happy with DSIL and the grandbaby.  So - I don't expect that to happen - but part of what upset your mother was seeing her DDIL the week before without a clue what was coming down the road....as it were.
Let sleeping dragons be.......morning breath......need I say more?

Hmmmmm

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 6255
Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest (who was brought along, nonetheless)
« Reply #173 on: December 16, 2013, 10:09:39 AM »
Secretrebel, in many cases, an elderly person is emotionally fragile, especially considering the myriad health problems they face.  This aunt is in a position of giving up her home and her independence.

I don't know how old you are or if you've ever had close elderly relatives, but imagine that someday you will be in this aunt's position...

BarensMom, I'm afraid I found this post very patronising. Yes, I have elderly relations. I do not lack imagination or compassion. And I have said all along that I don't think Larry should have brought his fiancÚ when she was not welcome.

In this thread I have simply being trying to point out that it is judgemental and unwelcoming to describe Larry's girlfriend as a "total stranger", "not family" and not in a serious relationship (all of which are views that have been expressed in this thread) and for the holiday to be considered 'ruined' by her attendance. It is those views I have been responding to.

But I am now going to bow out of this thread because the imagined viewpoint of an elderly woman moving into assisted living has reached a point of hyperbole that makes it impossible to put any alternative perspective without being characterised as a heartless monster.

I agree with secretrebel completely.

Ditto. I also agree with Perpetua's point that Larry was essentially being shoved between the devil and the deep blue sea, in some ways.

Larry can't bring the GF (and we all agree that he was rude to bring her, uninvited), and Larry probably can't realistically bow out, because it's 'Aunt's last thanksgiving'. I can see how that could be difficult for Larry, if the GF can't go to another celebration.

There's a lot of hyperbole going on here, and a lot of conjecture. What do we know?

1) Larry was asked to not bring his GF. We do not know the length of the relationship ('new' can mean virtually anything), whether or not she is usually included, and whether or not the 'no GF/BF' rule affected anybody apart from Larry.

2) Larry brought his GF. We don't know whether that 'ruined' thanksgiving, and we certainly do not know the mind of a lady who none of us have ever met.


That's it.

Larry could be a serial womaniser who brought some girl he picked up in a bar last night, and aunt could have had a breakdown in the pantry.

Larry could have a serious GF, who he has been seeing for almost a year, and who is usually included but was excluded from this event specifically. Aunt could have rolled her eyes and got somebody to pull up an extra chair.

I could go on. The point is, we don't know anything other than the facts I bolded. Yes, Larry was rude to bring the GF, but he's not necessarily a heinous, old-lady-upsetting monster. Or maybe he is. None of us knows!

What we do know is that
1. Larry is recently divorced.
2. Larry was told by cousin and father to not bring the girlfriend so they do not look upon the GF as a social unit with Larry.

Based on that, I don't see who we would even remotely assume he'd been dating this woman for a year or more.

I don't see how this puts Larry in a bad position. 3 family members (cousin, dad, aunt)  told him "no to your girlfriend". As an adult his choices were to not come or come alone. Why is that putting him in a bad position.

And it doesn't matter what the family reaction was. He was horribly rude to his aunt, his family, and his new girlfriend.

And why is it bad to refer to his girlfriend as a total stranger. She very well might be a total stranger to the aunt. Just because she isn't to Larry doesn't mean the other family members don't look upon her like that. 
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 10:13:37 AM by Hmmmmm »

perpetua

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1842
Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest (who was brought along, nonetheless)
« Reply #174 on: December 16, 2013, 10:15:37 AM »
Secretrebel, in many cases, an elderly person is emotionally fragile, especially considering the myriad health problems they face.  This aunt is in a position of giving up her home and her independence.

I don't know how old you are or if you've ever had close elderly relatives, but imagine that someday you will be in this aunt's position...

BarensMom, I'm afraid I found this post very patronising. Yes, I have elderly relations. I do not lack imagination or compassion. And I have said all along that I don't think Larry should have brought his fiancÚ when she was not welcome.

In this thread I have simply being trying to point out that it is judgemental and unwelcoming to describe Larry's girlfriend as a "total stranger", "not family" and not in a serious relationship (all of which are views that have been expressed in this thread) and for the holiday to be considered 'ruined' by her attendance. It is those views I have been responding to.

But I am now going to bow out of this thread because the imagined viewpoint of an elderly woman moving into assisted living has reached a point of hyperbole that makes it impossible to put any alternative perspective without being characterised as a heartless monster.

I agree with secretrebel completely.

Ditto. I also agree with Perpetua's point that Larry was essentially being shoved between the devil and the deep blue sea, in some ways.

Larry can't bring the GF (and we all agree that he was rude to bring her, uninvited), and Larry probably can't realistically bow out, because it's 'Aunt's last thanksgiving'. I can see how that could be difficult for Larry, if the GF can't go to another celebration.

There's a lot of hyperbole going on here, and a lot of conjecture. What do we know?

1) Larry was asked to not bring his GF. We do not know the length of the relationship ('new' can mean virtually anything), whether or not she is usually included, and whether or not the 'no GF/BF' rule affected anybody apart from Larry.

2) Larry brought his GF. We don't know whether that 'ruined' thanksgiving, and we certainly do not know the mind of a lady who none of us have ever met.


That's it.

Larry could be a serial womaniser who brought some girl he picked up in a bar last night, and aunt could have had a breakdown in the pantry.

Larry could have a serious GF, who he has been seeing for almost a year, and who is usually included but was excluded from this event specifically. Aunt could have rolled her eyes and got somebody to pull up an extra chair.

I could go on. The point is, we don't know anything other than the facts I bolded. Yes, Larry was rude to bring the GF, but he's not necessarily a heinous, old-lady-upsetting monster. Or maybe he is. None of us knows!

Yeah, I'm with you, Teenyweeny. You said what I've been trying to think how to post all day. I also found the post a little patronising but was having trouble trying to verbalise why.

Additionally, I really don't hold with the notion that 'family' is some sacred thing to be catered to to the exclusion of everyone else who might be important, so I'm almost coming down on Larry's side if she's an established girlfriend (although I agree that flouting the invite and bringing her anyway wasn't a good thing to do). Who gets to decide who's included in 'family' events and who isn't? Larry's part of the 'family' too - perhaps his views should also count. Were other people's partners included? If so, who gets to judge who's an 'important' enough partner to get an invite and why are their opinions of the stability of Larry's relationship more important than his?

Splitting the day up as someone suggested so Larry has lunch with the family and then spends the rest of the day with his GF may not be practical. Perhaps she's staying with him for the holidays. Perhaps he'll get it in the head for turning up for lunch only at Auntie's then running. Perhaps he would like to have Thanksgiving lunch with his girlfriend but then he'll get it in the head for not turning up to Auntie's lunch.

Too many variables.

Teenyweeny

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1664
Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest (who was brought along, nonetheless)
« Reply #175 on: December 16, 2013, 10:16:58 AM »

What we do know is that
1. Larry is recently divorced.
2. Larry was told by cousin and father to not bring the girlfriend.

I don't see how this puts Larry in a bad position. 3 family members (cousin, dad, aunt)  told him "no to your girlfriend". As an adult his choices were to not come or come alone. Why is that putting him in a bad position.

And it doesn't matter what the family reaction was. He was horribly rude to his aunt, his family, and his new girlfriend.

And why is it bad to refer to his girlfriend as a total stranger. She very well might be a total stranger to the aunt. Just because she isn't to Larry doesn't mean the other family members don't look upon her like that.

But what does 'recently' mean? Last week? Last month? Last year? Gosh, some things that I would describe as 'recent' I now realise were 3 years ago!  ;D

And of course, he was rude. But it is possible he was put in a bad position, if we're going to allow ourselves to suppose things, based on not very much, we could suppose that too. Maybe GF is a partner of around a year, she has no family nearby, and she just recently moved to the area. Maybe Larry can't bring the GF, but feels like he can't back out either ('it's Aunt's last thanksgiving at home!').

Maybe, maybe, maybe.




perpetua

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1842
Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest (who was brought along, nonetheless)
« Reply #176 on: December 16, 2013, 10:17:19 AM »

What we do know is that
1. Larry is recently divorced.
2. Larry was told by cousin and father to not bring the girlfriend so they do not look upon the GF as a social unit with Larry.


Why do Larry's cousin and father get to decide whether Larry and his girlfriend are a social unit or not? Shouldn't that be Larry's decision?

bloo

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1152
Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest (who was brought along, nonetheless)
« Reply #177 on: December 16, 2013, 10:21:08 AM »

What we do know is that
1. Larry is recently divorced.
2. Larry was told by cousin and father to not bring the girlfriend so they do not look upon the GF as a social unit with Larry.


Why do Larry's cousin and father get to decide whether Larry and his girlfriend are a social unit or not? Shouldn't that be Larry's decision?

Larry gets to decide he and his girlfriend are a social unit but Aunt gets to decide if they are a social unit she'd like to invite for Thanksgiving. Apparently she decided they weren't, and Larry's cousin and father tried to stress that point to him.

perpetua

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1842
Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest (who was brought along, nonetheless)
« Reply #178 on: December 16, 2013, 10:24:42 AM »

What we do know is that
1. Larry is recently divorced.
2. Larry was told by cousin and father to not bring the girlfriend so they do not look upon the GF as a social unit with Larry.


Why do Larry's cousin and father get to decide whether Larry and his girlfriend are a social unit or not? Shouldn't that be Larry's decision?

Larry gets to decide he and his girlfriend are a social unit but Aunt gets to decide if they are a social unit she'd like to invite for Thanksgiving. Apparently she decided they weren't, and Larry's cousin and father tried to stress that point to him.

Then she invites either both of them or none at all. Inviting one half of a social unit and excluding the other is rude.

If Larry and his g/f are a social unit and see themselves as such - and I don't believe anyone gets to decide that other than the couple themselves - then Auntie goofed by not inviting them both. And actually, it's worse than that, because not only did she not invite them, the family specifically pointed out that she wasn't welcome.

Twik

  • A Pillar of the Forum
  • *****
  • Posts: 28281
Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest (who was brought along, nonetheless)
« Reply #179 on: December 16, 2013, 10:25:03 AM »
Late to the party: Larry was rude to bring an uninvited guest and the etiquettely-correct move would be to decline and spend the holiday with his girlfriend, but on the other hand I can see where this kind of situation gets sticky, because if he declines, he's probably going to get it in the head for 'not showing up to Auntie's last Thanksgiving'. There aren't any easy winners in this situation, really.

Or accept, and spend Thanksgiving away from his girlfriend for a few hours. If this is their first year together, I suspect she has her own traditions with her own family, that she could keep.
My cousin's memoir of love and loneliness while raising a child with multiple disabilities will be out on Amazon soon! Know the Night, by Maria Mutch, has been called "full of hope, light, and companionship for surviving the small hours of the night."