Author Topic: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest - UPDATE #219  (Read 27616 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Hmmmmm

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 6428
Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest (who was brought along, nonetheless)
« Reply #195 on: December 16, 2013, 11:02:36 AM »

What we do know is that
1. Larry is recently divorced.
2. Larry was told by cousin and father to not bring the girlfriend so they do not look upon the GF as a social unit with Larry.


Why do Larry's cousin and father get to decide whether Larry and his girlfriend are a social unit or not? Shouldn't that be Larry's decision?

As other's have previously pointed out "society" gets to decide who is a social unit. That's why it is referred to as a social unit. And current etiquette says married, engaged, living together couples always qualify as a social unit. A person's social circle can decide to make exceptions for that by recognizing a couple who has been dating for a long time but choses not to live together as a social unit. And if you want drive that point home with your social circle you start declining invites when your chosen partner is not included in the invitation. You don't stamp your foot and say "we are a social unit and you will treat us as one". That is not how etiquette or society works.

And as far being "part of the family" I don't believe one person gets to decide that all other family members must welcome someone as "part of the family" unless they make a committment of some sorts. We know this would be at a minimal the 4th woman Larry has asked the family to include as part of the family. I don't think that is fair to the other memembers. I've known serial monogomists. It can be emotionally exhausting to have a person be accepted as part of your family and then to have them dissapear because the person who brought them into the family group has now decided they don't value that relationship anymore.  So just because Larry has decided this woman is part of "his family" (even if that was his reason for bringing her) it's not fair of him to decide that others must feel the same way, especially when he was told by a cousin and a father that the family was not ready to welcome the woman into the fold. 

Venus193

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 15889
  • Backstage passes are wonderful things!
Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest (who was brought along, nonetheless)
« Reply #196 on: December 16, 2013, 11:07:50 AM »
The description to me of "new girlfriend" can mean either or both of the following:

1.  He just started dating her recently
2.  She has not yet been introduced to the family.

I hope we find out later what the case really is.  If it's either of the above, she certainly doesn't qualify under the current rules and Larry is being an entitled cad.

perpetua

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2017
Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest (who was brought along, nonetheless)
« Reply #197 on: December 16, 2013, 11:16:04 AM »
And if you want drive that point home with your social circle you start declining invites when your chosen partner is not included in the invitation. You don't stamp your foot and say "we are a social unit and you will treat us as one". That is not how etiquette or society works.

You know - normally I'd agree at least in part with that. But in this situation, which seems *so* emotionally charged, I really don't see how Larry could have done that without landing himself in even *more* trouble.  The family seem to have made such a huge deal about it being 'Auntie's Last Thanksgiving' - how could he have declined that invite without being seen as some kind of heartless oaf?

The description to me of "new girlfriend" can mean either or both of the following:

1.  He just started dating her recently
2.  She has not yet been introduced to the family.

I hope we find out later what the case really is.  If it's either of the above, she certainly doesn't qualify under the current rules and Larry is being an entitled cad.

I'd agree with the first but not necessarily with the second because there are plenty of scenarios I could think of in which people haven't been introduced to the family yet but they may have been an established couple for a long time. For instance - a couple who have been together for a couple of years living a long way away from the family and not been back for a visit yet. Should one half of that couple be excluded from an event?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 11:17:56 AM by perpetua »

Twik

  • A Pillar of the Forum
  • *****
  • Posts: 28434
Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest (who was brought along, nonetheless)
« Reply #198 on: December 16, 2013, 11:23:05 AM »
Yes. They do not have to be invited as a couple. Of course, their friends probably *will* invite them together, because they are their friends. But, in cases such as the OP, where there is a reason to keep the guest list small, they do not *have* to be invited together.

Not technically by the book, perhaps. But it will create bad feeling if they are not.

Quote
If the couple doesn't want to be parted, the invitation can be declined.

Yes, it can be. And then Larry gets it in the head for being 'the cousin who thought his girlfriend was more important than Auntie's last holiday before she goes into a home'. I wouldn't want to be in that position - would you?

Quote
But they can't go around saying that the invitation to one member of the couple only was rude, or in any way against etiquette. No matter how much service was given to their country, or how desperately in love they are. It is the hosts' choice to invite them.

Perhaps not, again, if they're going 'by the book'. But they would be quite within their rights to feel hurt at the exclusion.

Quote
BTW, your hypothetical couple in your post could make themselves a social unit by announcing themselves "engaged". If they do not feel able to take that step, they should not judge society harsh in saying that they are not a social unit yet.

I find that rather judgemental, honestly.

No, that's the thing - they're not within their rights to feel slighted. Just being romantically involved does not make them a social unit. People can still choose to socialize with one, or both, as they wish, without being rude.

Will it create bad feeling? It shouldn't, if people are reasonable. Do you think it will create good feelings if Larry shows up with an uninvited guest? Or forces Aunt to choose between giving up her last party in her own home, or trying to put on an event that she is not physically capable of doing?

I think it's pretty darn judgmental of Larry to insist that his desire to spend every waking minute with his current girlfriend is more important than his aunt's happiness or health. And if his girlfriend is offended by this, I'd say Larry should cut and run, because she's a special snowflake.

The irony is that I'd bet good money that if Larry's guy friends called him up the week afterwards, and asked him to come hang for a guy's night, he'd not think twice about leaving his girlfriend behind. After all, I'm sure he'll say, it's not like they're joined at the hip, right?
My cousin's memoir of love and loneliness while raising a child with multiple disabilities will be out on Amazon soon! Know the Night, by Maria Mutch, has been called "full of hope, light, and companionship for surviving the small hours of the night."

GlitterIsMyDrug

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1120
Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest (who was brought along, nonetheless)
« Reply #199 on: December 16, 2013, 11:24:14 AM »
I'd agree with the first but not necessarily with the second because there are plenty of scenarios I could think of in which people haven't been introduced to the family yet but they may have been an established couple for a long time. For instance - a couple who have been together for a couple of years living a long way away from the family and not been back for a visit yet. Should one half of that couple be excluded from an event?

I think, in today's electronic world, it's very possible to introduce someone to the family without the family physically meeting them. Partner and I both have far flung family and friends, while in person there are people from each side we've never met, between skype, email, Facebook, twitter, instagram, pinterst (yes, my family follows each other on pinterest), texting, and even good old fashioned phone calls, we've been thoroughly introduced to one another's brood.

Physically, maybe you can't, but you could pick up a phone and say "Great-aunt Fanny, how are you? Me, well I'm seeing someone knew her name is Jane, she's right now, would you like to say hi?", and I would say that counts as a introduction.

EllenS

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1368
Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest (who was brought along, nonetheless)
« Reply #200 on: December 16, 2013, 11:29:46 AM »
I'd agree with the first but not necessarily with the second because there are plenty of scenarios I could think of in which people haven't been introduced to the family yet but they may have been an established couple for a long time. For instance - a couple who have been together for a couple of years living a long way away from the family and not been back for a visit yet. Should one half of that couple be excluded from an event?

I think, in today's electronic world, it's very possible to introduce someone to the family without the family physically meeting them. Partner and I both have far flung family and friends, while in person there are people from each side we've never met, between skype, email, Facebook, twitter, instagram, pinterst (yes, my family follows each other on pinterest), texting, and even good old fashioned phone calls, we've been thoroughly introduced to one another's brood.

Physically, maybe you can't, but you could pick up a phone and say "Great-aunt Fanny, how are you? Me, well I'm seeing someone knew her name is Jane, she's right now, would you like to say hi?", and I would say that counts as a introduction.

Yes, it does.

And, besides all that, even if Auntie was as rude as the rudiest rudenick who ever ruded a rudeness,

It does not make Larry entitled to trample her hospitality and crash the dinner with an uninvited guest.

It just makes him even ruder than she was.


bloo

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1295
Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest (who was brought along, nonetheless)
« Reply #201 on: December 16, 2013, 11:33:01 AM »
And, besides all that, even if Auntie was as rude as the rudiest rudenick who ever ruded a rudeness,

Nothing useful, I just wanted to add that I love your use of alliteration! :D

GlitterIsMyDrug

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1120
Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest (who was brought along, nonetheless)
« Reply #202 on: December 16, 2013, 11:33:31 AM »
I stated earlier that Partner and I spent our first two thanksgivings apart. The first because we'd only been together for a few months and neither of us wanted to invite the other to a family event quite yet. The second because her grandmother hosted a "family only" thanksgiving dinner. I didn't feel slighted or hurt or shut out. Sure I missed her a little, and when something funny happened I couldn't help think "Oh I wish Partner (then girlfriend) was here to see this!", but we saw each other the very next day. In the grand scheme of things, we're committing to each other for the rest of our lives, we'll have plenty more thanksgivings together. We've had plenty since. Those 2 apart didn't destroy our relationship with each other, or our relationships with our families. Her grandmother and I have met now and have spent several dinners together. She's a lovely woman who now would cheerfully include me in a "family only" invite.

However, had partner stamped her foot and insisted I be invited, or worse bring me without me being invited, that would've tarnished her relationship with her family, and probably her relationship with me. Not to mention my relationship with her family.

perpetua

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2017
Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest (who was brought along, nonetheless)
« Reply #203 on: December 16, 2013, 11:37:39 AM »
And, besides all that, even if Auntie was as rude as the rudiest rudenick who ever ruded a rudeness,

It does not make Larry entitled to trample her hospitality and crash the dinner with an uninvited guest.

It just makes him even ruder than she was.

Oh, of course. I don't think anyone's arguing with that. I'm just saying I can see how he might have been put in a very difficult position.

Elisabunny

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1333
Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest (who was brought along, nonetheless)
« Reply #204 on: December 16, 2013, 11:43:43 AM »
And if you want drive that point home with your social circle you start declining invites when your chosen partner is not included in the invitation. You don't stamp your foot and say "we are a social unit and you will treat us as one". That is not how etiquette or society works.

You know - normally I'd agree at least in part with that. But in this situation, which seems *so* emotionally charged, I really don't see how Larry could have done that without landing himself in even *more* trouble.  The family seem to have made such a huge deal about it being 'Auntie's Last Thanksgiving' - how could he have declined that invite without being seen as some kind of heartless oaf?


How do we know that family made it "such a big deal"?  It sounds more like, Aunt sent out the word that, "Hey, this is my last time hosting, I'd like to make it [for whatever reason] family only.  No friends, no girlfriends or boyfriends."  The family said, Sure, sounds reasonable.  Then Larry came in, insisting that his new One True Love must be included.  At which point, his father and brother told him he was being a rude idiot (not necessarily in those words), and probably listed all the other people who would not be coming who would normally be included.

The way I see it, the only one making it a Big Deal is Larry.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 11:54:37 AM by Elisabunny »
You must remember this: a ghoti is still a fish...

perpetua

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2017
Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest (who was brought along, nonetheless)
« Reply #205 on: December 16, 2013, 12:31:46 PM »
Just re-reading the OP, and at no point does it state that Larry does not live with his 'new' girlfriend ('new' could mean a number of different things). So for all we know, they could actually be a social unit according to the 'rules'. Until that's clarified (if it ever can be) then we don't know that Auntie and the rest of the family weren't rude in excluding her.


wolfie

  • I don't know what this is so I am putting random words here
  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 6918
Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest (who was brought along, nonetheless)
« Reply #206 on: December 16, 2013, 12:34:26 PM »
Just re-reading the OP, and at no point does it state that Larry does not live with his 'new' girlfriend ('new' could mean a number of different things). So for all we know, they could actually be a social unit according to the 'rules'. Until that's clarified (if it ever can be) then we don't know that Auntie and the rest of the family weren't rude in excluding her.

Since both his father and his cousin advised him that he shouldn't bring his girlfriend I think it is safe to assume he doesn't fall under the usual terms for social unit.

perpetua

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2017
Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest (who was brought along, nonetheless)
« Reply #207 on: December 16, 2013, 12:35:36 PM »
Just re-reading the OP, and at no point does it state that Larry does not live with his 'new' girlfriend ('new' could mean a number of different things). So for all we know, they could actually be a social unit according to the 'rules'. Until that's clarified (if it ever can be) then we don't know that Auntie and the rest of the family weren't rude in excluding her.

Since both his father and his cousin advised him that he shouldn't bring his girlfriend I think it is safe to assume he doesn't fall under the usual terms for social unit.

That's supposition, though. Perhaps they don't know the 'rule'.  Perhaps Auntie really did just want 'only family members' despite that, in which case she was the rude one.  We'd have to wait for the OP to see his friend again to clarify that, though. I can't wait for the update  :)

wolfie

  • I don't know what this is so I am putting random words here
  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 6918
Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest (who was brought along, nonetheless)
« Reply #208 on: December 16, 2013, 12:38:37 PM »
Just re-reading the OP, and at no point does it state that Larry does not live with his 'new' girlfriend ('new' could mean a number of different things). So for all we know, they could actually be a social unit according to the 'rules'. Until that's clarified (if it ever can be) then we don't know that Auntie and the rest of the family weren't rude in excluding her.

Since both his father and his cousin advised him that he shouldn't bring his girlfriend I think it is safe to assume he doesn't fall under the usual terms for social unit.

That's supposition, though. Perhaps they don't know the 'rule'.  Perhaps Auntie really did just want 'only family members' despite that, in which case she was the rude one.  We'd have to wait for the OP to see his friend again to clarify that, though. I can't wait for the update  :)

I think most people don't need to know the actual rule to know that you don't invite half of a household to an event like this. I can't wait for the update either.

etiquettenut

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 311
Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest (who was brought along, nonetheless)
« Reply #209 on: December 16, 2013, 12:51:54 PM »
While reading this thread, I was struck with one question that I must have answered before I can make my decision: Did the "no gf/bf" rule affect anyone other than Larry? If it did, and the people complied without issue, then he has no leg to stand on (not that anything excuses his rudeness of bringing an uninvited person).

However, if Larry was the only one affected by this, I would actually have sympathy for him and think that the Aunt was being, if not rude, unkind. If it was indeed only his new GF who was excluded, I would actually be on his side. If other family members were not allowed to bring bf/gf then he gets no support from me.