Author Topic: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest - UPDATE #219  (Read 30666 times)

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Teenyweeny

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Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest - UPDATE #219
« Reply #270 on: January 09, 2014, 11:32:51 AM »
update doesn't change my opinion, Larry was beyond rude.  he was invited to dinner and told the condtion that noone other than family was invited, two people told him to either do as requested or stay away, he gatecrashed with his gf.

he's lucky he was allowed to stay for the meal as i'm certain that if a member of my family did this they'd be kicked out and told that they'd only be welcome back another day if it were to apologise.

i'll let the gf off, as we don't know whether she knew in adance that she wasn't invited.

and Auntie gets a bravo for letting him know what she thought of him!
i have no problem telling people off, as its worse to bottle it up imo

You can tell somebody that they've crossed a line without berating them. In fact, it's usually more effective (in my experience) to be calm, firm, factual, and private about these things. You don't have to be rude to be emotionally healthy.

It would also have been less rude to simply show them both the door, especially where the other hapless guests are concerned. I'd have hated sitting in what I'm sure was a very chilly atmosphere.





lowspark

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Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest - UPDATE #219
« Reply #271 on: January 09, 2014, 11:34:48 AM »
<snip>
As far as the girlfriend is concerned, I can see why she might have been frozen and stayed for the dinner simply for lack of knowing anything else to do.  If he drove and didn't want to leave, how would she leave? ...  and so on.  But the fact that he put her in this incredibly awkward position (apparently without her knowledge beforehand) and then went on to move in with him after she knew what had happened there doesn't speak particularly glowingly of her either.

In her place, the first thing I'd do is insist he take me home. If he wants to return after that, it's his perogative but I'd want out of there. If he refused, I'd ask for his keys and say that I'll pick him up later or he can catch a ride home with a relative. If he refused that, then yeah, I'd probably be calling a cab.

I think the GF needed to at least express her regrest to Aunt because in her place I'd want to make sure that Aunt knew I came thinking I'd been invited. And this moment would be Aunt's opportunity to say something like, I'm sorry you had to hear all that but of course you're welcome to stay!

And if that didn't happen, there's just no way I'd sit and eat. No way. I couldn't do it.

Now, as I said, I understand not everyone could/would react that way. And it's forgivable if the GF just doesn't know what to do and stays. I'm just saying what I'd do.

And I also agree with Toots. In and of itself, Larry's actions as they played out would not necessarily be enough for me to break up with him. I think it would definitely be enough to instigate some serious conversation at a later time about expectations of how to deal with this kind of thing in the future. And maybe how his family sees me, his relationship with his family and how it affects us, etc. If we're in the process of forming a permanent relationship, then these are things that need to be ironed out but I don't see them as unforgivable.

Now, if I wanted to leave and Larry let me take a cab instead of working out something somehow, then I'd probably be examining his motivations a little bit more closely.

lowspark

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Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest - UPDATE #219
« Reply #272 on: January 09, 2014, 11:43:21 AM »

<snip>

Lowspark put it well:
I'm still on the side of the Aunt as far as getting to decide who she wants to invite. It's Larry's perogative to either come alone or skip the event, but bringing the uninvited gf was rude. No question.

However, with the update, I think the Aunt went haywire berating Larry within earshot of the rest of the company. That is rude. She had two choices (as we've discussed at length in some other recent threads): Graciously accept the gf as a guest and treat her as such or (difficult but it can be done) turn them both away at the door.

I don't see yelling at Larry as an option, whether it was in private or not. She could have taken him aside quietly and said, sorry GF wasn't invited and you'll both have to leave but that's not what she did.

I agree. Well, I think in private she could yell at Larry; he's not a stranger to her, and so I think you can yell at people you have an actual relationship with. You might tick them off, but that's all a relationship issue.

I think in private she can yell at Larry some other time. I just don't think that the family Thanksgiving gathering with everyone in the family in the other room is the right time for angry yelling. Because honestly, if she is literally yelling, a closed door is not likely to block off the sound.

To be honest, any situation where it is noticeable that Aunt has taken Larry off to a room for more than a minute or two is rude to all gathered.

Like I said, I think it would have been ok to (I'm adding this word:) discreetly take Larry off to the side and say, sorry, y'all gotta go (in so many words). But to yell at him or berate him in that particular situation -- I just don't see that as ok.

Dr. F.

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Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest - UPDATE #219
« Reply #273 on: January 09, 2014, 11:45:07 AM »
For those who are saying, effectively, that Aunt had no right to set her own invitation list because Thanksgiving is an important holiday, so she HAD to issue an invitation for family and whoever they would like to bring, would your opinion change if the event was a wedding?

After all, Thanksgiving happens every year, weddings happen once in a person's life (or only a few times).

So, let's recast this as a wedding. Aunt is getting married, and, for whatever reason, wants a small ceremony. She issues invitations to family members only, but including spouses using the 'social unit' rule. Larry wants to bring his new girlfriend. Two people tell him not to, as the ceremony is planned to be a small one. Larry ignores their advice, and brings GF anyway. Aunt goes off on him.

In this case, I think everyone would admit that Larry was rude. I don't see the actual situation as being any different.

1. There is no evidence that the GF was a serious one BEFORE the Thanksgiving event, as such, the social unit rule does not come into play
2. There is no evidence that anyone is censuring Larry's morals. His behavior in bringing an uninvited guest when he'd been warned not to? Yes, absolutely.
3. There is no evidence that not attending would have had any impact on Larry. I can't see how it could be worse than what he actually did.

Aunt offered to host a gathering she could manage. The notion that that it was Thanksgiving meant that she HAD to invite all and sundry whether she liked it or not is a red herring, I think. Frankly, Thanksgiving is a holiday, but not one of such overwhelming importance that a person CANNOT be separated from their SO for a few hours. An invitation is not a summons. Someone else could have hosted. Larry could have gone elsewhere.

I am firmly on Team Aunt.

nayberry

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Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest - UPDATE #219
« Reply #274 on: January 09, 2014, 11:46:29 AM »
update doesn't change my opinion, Larry was beyond rude.  he was invited to dinner and told the condtion that noone other than family was invited, two people told him to either do as requested or stay away,

Small but important point of order: That's not what was said. He was told not to bring the girlfriend. He wasn't told to stay away. For all we know at that stage that could mean 'you WILL be here and your girlfriend isn't welcome'.  We don't know if not going was even presented as an option.


it was family only,  that means he attends alone or he doesn't go,


Teeny - i agree, but i can understand that aunt would have been emotional and uoset by his rudeness

BarensMom

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Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest - UPDATE #219
« Reply #275 on: January 09, 2014, 11:53:33 AM »
Here are the facts as I see them:

Fact:  Aunt is 89 years old and is obviously infirm enough that she is going into assisted living.
Fact:  She requested a "family-only" Thanksgiving dinner.
Fact:  Larry was "recently" divorced and just started a new relationship.
Fact:  Larry ignored his aunt's wishes and brought an uninvited guest.
Fact:  Aunt was angry and upset that someone (Larry) insisted on bringing a "stranger" into her home.
Fact:  Aunt had a "deer-snot uprising" with Larry in earshot of the other guests and the uninvited girlfriend.
Fact:  Aunt ended up allowed Larry and girlfriend to remain.

Conclusion:  It is still Aunt's house, Larry had absolutely no right to bring girlfriend.  Larry was still rude.

Lorelei_Evil

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Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest - UPDATE #219
« Reply #276 on: January 09, 2014, 11:54:23 AM »
For those who are saying, effectively, that Aunt had no right to set her own invitation list because Thanksgiving is an important holiday, so she HAD to issue an invitation for family and whoever they would like to bring, would your opinion change if the event was a wedding?

After all, Thanksgiving happens every year, weddings happen once in a person's life (or only a few times).

So, let's recast this as a wedding. Aunt is getting married, and, for whatever reason, wants a small ceremony. She issues invitations to family members only, but including spouses using the 'social unit' rule. Larry wants to bring his new girlfriend. Two people tell him not to, as the ceremony is planned to be a small one. Larry ignores their advice, and brings GF anyway. Aunt goes off on him.

In this case, I think everyone would admit that Larry was rude. I don't see the actual situation as being any different.

1. There is no evidence that the GF was a serious one BEFORE the Thanksgiving event, as such, the social unit rule does not come into play
2. There is no evidence that anyone is censuring Larry's morals. His behavior in bringing an uninvited guest when he'd been warned not to? Yes, absolutely.
3. There is no evidence that not attending would have had any impact on Larry. I can't see how it could be worse than what he actually did.

Aunt offered to host a gathering she could manage. The notion that that it was Thanksgiving meant that she HAD to invite all and sundry whether she liked it or not is a red herring, I think. Frankly, Thanksgiving is a holiday, but not one of such overwhelming importance that a person CANNOT be separated from their SO for a few hours. An invitation is not a summons. Someone else could have hosted. Larry could have gone elsewhere.

I am firmly on Team Aunt.

POD

VorFemme

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Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest - UPDATE #219
« Reply #277 on: January 09, 2014, 11:55:36 AM »
In order of the rude:

Larry showed up KNOWING without a doubt that he was supposed to show up by himself, since he was divorced (recently or not), to a family-only party with a GF in tow.  He deliberately chose to flout the "rules" for the last family dinner that Aunt could host - rather selfish, thoughtless, and he dragged someone into the event that he didn't seem to have warned "you aren't invited - but I'm bringing you anyway" - making them witness the entire fiasco - minimum score is Rudeness level 3 (knowing and flouting the terms of the invitation is two points, doing so in a way calculated to maximize the offense as there will be no later dinner party to smooth over the memories of the LAST dinner party Aunt had before leaving her home for other living arrangements gives him one more point).

Aunt - issued the invitation to minimize the work for her at her age - not rude - a recognition that she isn't up for fixing food for four generations with entourages for her last dinner party for the holiday.  Taking him out of the room to talk to him wasn't rude.  If she's having issues with hearing or memory - forgetting to shut the door MIGHT or might not be deliberately rude.  It might be an oversight - we weren't there and we don't KNOW for a fact what all is going on with her health.  But she still gets one Rude point for the combination of chewing Larry out too publically and then letting the GF know, by her behavior, that the GF was NOT an invited guest. 

GF - can't tell whether she knew she was being brought along to enact a drama or not...no Rudeness points - but no Polite points for making her excuses & telling Larry that she'd come back for him in a couple of hours (or even extricating both of them as politely as possibly, as they had only dropped by on their way to *other location* just to say "hi!" to the family). 

Rest of the family?  Hard to say - they may have avoided being near Larry because they knew that he'd drag them into a "we TOLD you what Aunt said about no guests"; "well, you didn't tell me she was going to go haywire about it"; and "we told you so, you didn't listen again" cycle of argument (yes, I have seen a few conversations with the Larry of that family insisting that they did NOTHING wrong because nobody told them that they really, truly, cross your heart & hope to die, etc. should follow the explicitly stated rules THIS time for whatever reason....because they'd always ignored the rules in the past and gotten away with it....or at least they thought so). 

Mini-strokes left the elderly host/hostess with a bit less control over their tongue & "Larry" found out that he was no longer the curly haired moppet who could do no wrong...and had outgrown that status at least two decades earlier.   They had a medical excuse for calling Larry on the carpet - but it didn't make it any easier to hear about from everyone else later....both Larry and the rest of the family....
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 11:58:12 AM by VorFemme »
Let sleeping dragons be.......morning breath......need I say more?

TurtleDove

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Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest - UPDATE #219
« Reply #278 on: January 09, 2014, 11:55:51 AM »
In this case, I think everyone would admit that Larry was rude. I don't see the actual situation as being any different.

1. There is no evidence that the GF was a serious one BEFORE the Thanksgiving event, as such, the social unit rule does not come into play
2. There is no evidence that anyone is censuring Larry's morals. His behavior in bringing an uninvited guest when he'd been warned not to? Yes, absolutely.
3. There is no evidence that not attending would have had any impact on Larry. I can't see how it could be worse than what he actually did.

Not a single poster has argued that Larry was not rude.  However, some of us see problems with the aunt and family's behavior as well.

Again, it matters very much to me whether Larry was the only adult affected by the "no GF/BFs" rule.  He is not a child.  He is not a teenager.  He is a full-grown adult.  The OP and the words used lead me to believe that the family and aunt do not like Larry and believe him to be beneath them, as are his relationships, because of his divorced status.  The OP still has not clarified, but I got the sense from the beginning based on tone that the family actively wants their disapproval of Larry and his relationship status to be known, and that the "no BF/GFs" rule was intended to punish Larry while giving the family a veneer of "what do you mean?  We aren't judgmental people more focused on appearance than Larry's happiness!"

The fact that the family seemed to smugly "allow" Larry and the GF to stay while making it very clear they feel superior to Larry and the GF leads me to have some sympathy for Larry.  This is not a family I would want to be a part of, personally.

I have such a difficult time picturing this "elderly aunt" (what does that mean anyway) being so decrepit that she needs to go into a nursing home, yet so with it that she would actively and loudly berate a relative rather than just go with the flow and enjoy her Thanksgiving.  It wasn't an issue of space - the GF was easily accomodated.  I strongly get the sense this was an issue of, "We want to show Larry we disapprove of his morals."  I am not cool with that.

gramma dishes

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Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest - UPDATE #219
« Reply #279 on: January 09, 2014, 11:57:56 AM »
I've tried putting myself in each of the major player's positions here.  The Aunt's, Larry's father's and brother's, Larry's, the 'new' girlfriend's and I still come to the conclusion that Larry was absolutely disrespectful to the Aunt and that he knew ahead of time that he was going to be.  That makes what he did all the more despicable.

TurtleDove

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Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest - UPDATE #219
« Reply #280 on: January 09, 2014, 12:00:35 PM »
I've tried putting myself in each of the major player's positions here.  The Aunt's, Larry's father's and brother's, Larry's, the 'new' girlfriend's and I still come to the conclusion that Larry was absolutely disrespectful to the Aunt and that he knew ahead of time that he was going to be.  That makes what he did all the more despicable.

Yep.  And the family was also disrespectful to Larry.  In my opinion, pointedly disrespectful so that they could feel morally superior by actively condemning Larry for moving on after divorce.

lowspark

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Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest - UPDATE #219
« Reply #281 on: January 09, 2014, 12:02:06 PM »
For those who are saying, effectively, that Aunt had no right to set her own invitation list because Thanksgiving is an important holiday, so she HAD to issue an invitation for family and whoever they would like to bring, would your opinion change if the event was a wedding?

After all, Thanksgiving happens every year, weddings happen once in a person's life (or only a few times).

So, let's recast this as a wedding. Aunt is getting married, and, for whatever reason, wants a small ceremony. She issues invitations to family members only, but including spouses using the 'social unit' rule. Larry wants to bring his new girlfriend. Two people tell him not to, as the ceremony is planned to be a small one. Larry ignores their advice, and brings GF anyway. Aunt goes off on him.

In this case, I think everyone would admit that Larry was rude. I don't see the actual situation as being any different.

1. There is no evidence that the GF was a serious one BEFORE the Thanksgiving event, as such, the social unit rule does not come into play
2. There is no evidence that anyone is censuring Larry's morals. His behavior in bringing an uninvited guest when he'd been warned not to? Yes, absolutely.
3. There is no evidence that not attending would have had any impact on Larry. I can't see how it could be worse than what he actually did.

Aunt offered to host a gathering she could manage. The notion that that it was Thanksgiving meant that she HAD to invite all and sundry whether she liked it or not is a red herring, I think. Frankly, Thanksgiving is a holiday, but not one of such overwhelming importance that a person CANNOT be separated from their SO for a few hours. An invitation is not a summons. Someone else could have hosted. Larry could have gone elsewhere.

I am firmly on Team Aunt.

Can you imagine being at an intimate family wedding and, when someone brought an uninvited guest along, the bride loudly berated that person within earshot of the entirety of the invited guests?

I'd be mortified. It would completely lower the bride's esteem in my eyes. I would be completly uncomfortable for the rest of the event, and I'd leave as soon as politely possible.

Yeah, the guest would be completely in the wrong. But ugh, who would want to hear that berating at a wedding? And by the same token, at any gathering?

nayberry

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Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest - UPDATE #219
« Reply #282 on: January 09, 2014, 12:03:22 PM »
I've tried putting myself in each of the major player's positions here.  The Aunt's, Larry's father's and brother's, Larry's, the 'new' girlfriend's and I still come to the conclusion that Larry was absolutely disrespectful to the Aunt and that he knew ahead of time that he was going to be.  That makes what he did all the more despicable.

Yep.  And the family was also disrespectful to Larry.  In my opinion, pointedly disrespectful so that they could feel morally superior by actively condemning Larry for moving on after divorce.

how were they disrespectful of larry?  he was issued an invitation and had 2 choices,  he made up a third and caused the upset.

wolfie

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Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest - UPDATE #219
« Reply #283 on: January 09, 2014, 12:04:30 PM »
I've tried putting myself in each of the major player's positions here.  The Aunt's, Larry's father's and brother's, Larry's, the 'new' girlfriend's and I still come to the conclusion that Larry was absolutely disrespectful to the Aunt and that he knew ahead of time that he was going to be.  That makes what he did all the more despicable.

Yep.  And the family was also disrespectful to Larry.  In my opinion, pointedly disrespectful so that they could feel morally superior by actively condemning Larry for moving on after divorce.

I don't understand where you are getting that from. No where in the OP's post did she say that the family was upset with Larry for moving on after a divorce. In fact since he has had 3 of them him moving on should be standard operating procedure by now and expected from the family.

BarensMom

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Re: The SPECIFICALLY not-invited guest - UPDATE #219
« Reply #284 on: January 09, 2014, 12:05:19 PM »

I have such a difficult time picturing this "elderly aunt" (what does that mean anyway) being so decrepit that she needs to go into a nursing home, yet so with it that she would actively and loudly berate a relative rather than just go with the flow and enjoy her Thanksgiving.  It wasn't an issue of space - the GF was easily accomodated.  I strongly get the sense this was an issue of, "We want to show Larry we disapprove of his morals."  I am not cool with that.

From the post, I don't get the "we disapprove of his morals," only his rudeness to his Aunt's wishes.

Why do you have difficulty believing that Aunt is decrepit enough to need assisted living but is verbal enough to be able to defend the boundaries of her home?  It could be that her mind is sharp, but her body is breaking down.  It's not a question of accommodation - it's that Aunt did not want a stranger in her home.  Under the same circumstances as Aunt (leaving a beloved home, physical limitations), would you want a total stranger appearing at your home expecting hospitality?

I have a 95-year old Aunt currently in a nursing home who could tell you the ins and outs of Obamacare, but is unable to move from her bed to her chair without a lift machine.  Yet, if you cross her, she would have no trouble telling you how the milk got into the cocoanut.