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Author Topic: Teaching moment?  (Read 20720 times)

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jaxsue

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Re: Teaching moment?
« Reply #45 on: December 12, 2013, 10:06:34 AM »
I do not ever recall my mother 'teaching' me how to make a transaction in a shop. It's not the cashier's job to teach children, and it's impolite to keep people waiting unnecessarily. I feel exactly the same about people who spend ages fussing with their wallet/coupons. What did you think you were queuing for? A go on the swings? You should have those things ready!

I had play money, and a bit of 'real' change, and played shop at home. When I could make transactions there, then I was allowed to do them for real. And by 'for real', I mean give the money and take the change. If I needed to count the change, I'd do it off to one side, like I still do now.

ITA. My mom had 6 kids...she hardly had time to take us to the store to teach us how to count change!  8) I learned how to count change by playing with toy cash registers and toy money (you think we got REAL money for playing - ha!) That was as young as 5 y/o. Then, in lower elementary school we learned all this stuff. My opinion is, that if you are holding people up with your teaching moment, you are being very inconsiderate.

sparksals

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Re: Teaching moment?
« Reply #46 on: December 12, 2013, 10:24:29 AM »
While I can see being annoyed at having to wait for something...I don't see standing behind someone for five minutes as such a huge inconvenience.  Being that most transactions take at least three to four minutes anyway, we aren't talking about a whole lot of extra time. 

I think how you handle it, is you wait for your turn.

And I do think that people should be cognizant of others in line and not purposely take much longer than necessary to complete a transaction.  Taking a kid to a store at a non-busy time to teach them how to make a transaction isn't a big deal.  The mother probably told her child that she could count the money and to renege on that just because someone got in line behind them is unreasonable...for 10 extra minutes, maybe...but not for two.  And this is nowhere near as much time as it takes for the person who waits until every item has been scanned to open up their purse and search for their checkbook.  Unfortunately, not everyone is super efficient and being that we have to share this world with them, we're going to be inconvenienced at times.


The grocery store is not the place to each a child their math or money counting.  If one customer has to wait, then it is too long.  It is NOT the place to each a child.  A parent can do that at home or school, not when it remotely inconveniences others.

Actually, a store (in this case party supply?), or any other real-life experience, is both appropriate and reasonable.  At least the time the OP mentioned the mother taking is reasonable.  What is unreasonable is the expectation that a child, or anyone for that matter, will never inconvenience you.   It is not much different than being held up by a few minutes because you happen to find yourself behind a student driver, or being held up by the extra three minutes by the person who couldn't figure out how to operate the paid parking machine (happened to me this morning). 

Whether or not you are in a rush, holding something heavy, in a bad mood, whatever...it is no one's responsibility to forgo reasonable activity to avoid your annoyance.  And in this case, being behind someone who took two minutes to help a child count change is annoying...not unreasonable.  Someone who took ten minutes to do it would be unreasonable.

Furthermore, I whole heatedly believe that the children that are raised around the "you should be seen and not heard and you are an annoyance to every adult around you" are the same children that grow up to be the incompetent adults who can't work the self-checkout line, can't pull their checkbook out of their purse while their groceries are being scanned, can't order appropriately at the deli-counter, etc.  Taking two minutes here and there to teach a child something practical probably saves you several minutes of frustration in the future.  So, look at those two minutes like an investment and patiently wait your turn at the checkout.


I guess we disagree on what constitutes reasonable.  I believe it is unreasonable to delay a lineup to teach a child something in a public setting.  Just as it is unreasonable to take young children to Chez Expensive Froo Froo and then they misbehave. 

Julsie

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Re: Teaching moment?
« Reply #47 on: December 12, 2013, 10:26:09 AM »
Quote
Chances are, that if there was anyone else aside from you and your children around when you were teaching your kids, that someone was inconvenienced...or at the least believed that they were.

I share your distaste in the "Children are inherently annoying" idea.  But I do think it's possible to have teaching moments without inconveniencing anyone.  In this particular case the mother could have gotten out of line sooner than she did.  The transaction lesson could have been done another time when there was no one in line behind her.

bah12

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Re: Teaching moment?
« Reply #48 on: December 12, 2013, 10:34:30 AM »
While I can see being annoyed at having to wait for something...I don't see standing behind someone for five minutes as such a huge inconvenience.  Being that most transactions take at least three to four minutes anyway, we aren't talking about a whole lot of extra time. 

I think how you handle it, is you wait for your turn.

And I do think that people should be cognizant of others in line and not purposely take much longer than necessary to complete a transaction.  Taking a kid to a store at a non-busy time to teach them how to make a transaction isn't a big deal.  The mother probably told her child that she could count the money and to renege on that just because someone got in line behind them is unreasonable...for 10 extra minutes, maybe...but not for two.  And this is nowhere near as much time as it takes for the person who waits until every item has been scanned to open up their purse and search for their checkbook.  Unfortunately, not everyone is super efficient and being that we have to share this world with them, we're going to be inconvenienced at times.


The grocery store is not the place to each a child their math or money counting.  If one customer has to wait, then it is too long.  It is NOT the place to each a child.  A parent can do that at home or school, not when it remotely inconveniences others.

Actually, a store (in this case party supply?), or any other real-life experience, is both appropriate and reasonable.  At least the time the OP mentioned the mother taking is reasonable.  What is unreasonable is the expectation that a child, or anyone for that matter, will never inconvenience you.   It is not much different than being held up by a few minutes because you happen to find yourself behind a student driver, or being held up by the extra three minutes by the person who couldn't figure out how to operate the paid parking machine (happened to me this morning). 

Whether or not you are in a rush, holding something heavy, in a bad mood, whatever...it is no one's responsibility to forgo reasonable activity to avoid your annoyance.  And in this case, being behind someone who took two minutes to help a child count change is annoying...not unreasonable.  Someone who took ten minutes to do it would be unreasonable.

Furthermore, I whole heatedly believe that the children that are raised around the "you should be seen and not heard and you are an annoyance to every adult around you" are the same children that grow up to be the incompetent adults who can't work the self-checkout line, can't pull their checkbook out of their purse while their groceries are being scanned, can't order appropriately at the deli-counter, etc.  Taking two minutes here and there to teach a child something practical probably saves you several minutes of frustration in the future.  So, look at those two minutes like an investment and patiently wait your turn at the checkout.


I guess we disagree on what constitutes reasonable.  I believe it is unreasonable to delay a lineup to teach a child something in a public setting.  Just as it is unreasonable to take young children to Chez Expensive Froo Froo and then they misbehave.

Yes, we disagree.  I do not think that two minutes is a "delay".  It's a reasonable wait time, far less than what most adults who are inefficient in completing thier transactions take as far as extra or "unnecessary" time goes.  I also think that a child who is permitted to misbehave in any setting, not just expensive ones, is unreasonable.  I do disagree that a behaving child cannot ever go to Chez Froo Froo (a discussion we shouldn't revisit) because I do think that those who think that the mere sight of a child is rude are the unreasonable ones.

bah12

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Re: Teaching moment?
« Reply #49 on: December 12, 2013, 10:44:20 AM »
Quote
Chances are, that if there was anyone else aside from you and your children around when you were teaching your kids, that someone was inconvenienced...or at the least believed that they were.

I share your distaste in the "Children are inherently annoying" idea.  But I do think it's possible to have teaching moments without inconveniencing anyone.  In this particular case the mother could have gotten out of line sooner than she did.  The transaction lesson could have been done another time when there was no one in line behind her.

From my understanding of the OP, there was no one else in line when the mother started.  The OP admitted she chose a non-crowded time of the day to go shopping.  So, then, so did the mother.  She took her child to a store in a low period of the day and started a lesson.  The fact that someone jumped in line behind her doesn't matter.  She took, by the OP's admission, a few minutes.  Most transactions take a few minutes, so I don't think this was unreasonable length of time.   Had there been no child and just an adult who was slow in counting out change, it may not have even been an issue.

And yes, it is very possible to teach kids without inconveniencing others.  However, "inconvenience" means different things to different people.  There are people who feel any amount of wait time is an inconvenience to them.  I know a woman who feels that the extra question ("Do you want this all on one card")  at the Target credit card check out is an inconvenience and that anyone who would even dream of using more than card for a transaction is a huge inconvenience to society.  It's impossible to avoid those who feel that every little minor thing is an inconvenience...and I don't think that anyone needs to change their reasonable behavior to cater to them.

Julsie

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Re: Teaching moment?
« Reply #50 on: December 12, 2013, 10:47:42 AM »
Quote
The fact that someone jumped in line behind her doesn't matter.

To me, that is the crux of what matters.  As soon as I saw that someone had gotten into line behind me, I would have canceled the transaction life lesson.

Sure, other people may take longer than this mother and child to check out, for reasons beyond their control.  But if it is at all within someone's control, they should wrap things up as soon as possible.

Teenyweeny

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Re: Teaching moment?
« Reply #51 on: December 12, 2013, 10:48:28 AM »

Yes, we disagree.  I do not think that two minutes is a "delay".  It's a reasonable wait time, far less than what most adults who are inefficient in completing their transactions take as far as extra or "unnecessary" time goes.

But I think that those adults are thoughtless too.  I hate it when I have to wait because somebody didn't anticipate that, *gasp*, they might need to get their wallet out of their handbag in order to buy something. Or when I have to wait because the cashier and customer are chatting, and so the transaction goes much slower than usual (a few pleasantries are OK, a chat which holds up the queue really isn't).

And remember, the mum in the OP noticed that there was somebody waiting, and proceeded to continue with this 'lesson'. Sorry lady, a better lesson would be that we complete our business in a timely and efficient manner, for the benefit of everybody.

Also, remember that most of us are not infinitely patient. It really gets on my nerves when somebody who doesn't need accommodations proceeds to ask for them (or just take them) because 'if I were slower (or whatever) for X reason, you'd be inconvenienced just the same'!

Those people are really spoiling it for those people who have a genuine need for special assistance/consideration, by making everybody tired of being patient.



perpetua

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Re: Teaching moment?
« Reply #52 on: December 12, 2013, 10:51:01 AM »
While I can see being annoyed at having to wait for something...I don't see standing behind someone for five minutes as such a huge inconvenience.  Being that most transactions take at least three to four minutes anyway, we aren't talking about a whole lot of extra time. 

I think how you handle it, is you wait for your turn.

And I do think that people should be cognizant of others in line and not purposely take much longer than necessary to complete a transaction.  Taking a kid to a store at a non-busy time to teach them how to make a tranaction isn't a big deal.  The mother probably told her child that she could count the money and to renig on that just because someone got in line behind them is unreasonable...for 10 extra minutes, maybe...but not for two.  And this is nowhere near as much time as it takes for the person who waits until every item has been scanned to open up their purse and search for their checkbook.  Unfortunately, not everyone is super efficient and being that we have to share this world with them, we're going to be inconvenienced at times.


The grocery store is not the place to each a child their math or money counting.  If one customer has to wait, then it is too long.  It is NOT the place to each a child.  A parent can do that at home or school, not when it remotely inconveniences others.

Sorry bah12, I agree with sparksals here. Waiting for five minutes may not be an inconvenience to you. It would be to me, because I can't stand up for that long without severe problems. If a mother was doing this kind of lesson in front of me and refused to move I would ask the cashier to call a manager to make her stop and move out of the way.

Counting out change is one thing and needs to be practiced (at non-busy times). Teaching your child about coins should be done at home where it doesn't inconvenience other people. If as in the OP the child doesn't know coin values, s/he isn't ready to practice the change-counting in-store.

Teenyweeny

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Re: Teaching moment?
« Reply #53 on: December 12, 2013, 10:55:44 AM »
Waiting for five minutes may not be an inconvenience to you. It would be to me, because I can't stand up for that long without severe problems.

That's also a very good point. When we force others to be accommodating, we aren't thinking about the fact that they themselves might have difficulties.



bah12

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Re: Teaching moment?
« Reply #54 on: December 12, 2013, 11:02:06 AM »
I am neither surprised nor expect different from the attitude that everyone should cater to what annoys you.  However, as much as you "hate" that people are incompetant and inneficient...they are most often that way because of the attitude that children should not be allowed to do anything in public, because their slowness inconveniences you in some minute way. You can't have it both ways.  In order for adults to learn how to be efficient, they must be first be taught so, most efficiently as children.

Also, as bad as I feel that you can't stand for too long, it is a medical issue that no one else is responsible for.  I might let you go ahead of me if I knew that to be the case ahead of time, but I wouldn't expect anyone to know what ails you.

perpetua

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Re: Teaching moment?
« Reply #55 on: December 12, 2013, 11:04:47 AM »
I am neither surprised nor expect different from the attitude that everyone should cater to what annoys you.  However, as much as you "hate" that people are incompetant and inneficient...they are most often that way because of the attitude that children should not be allowed to do anything in public, because their slowness inconveniences you in some minute way. You can't have it both ways.  In order for adults to learn how to be efficient, they must be first be taught so, most efficiently as children.

Also, as bad as I feel that you can't stand for too long, it is a medical issue that no one else is responsible for.  I might let you go ahead of me if I knew that to be the case ahead of time, but I wouldn't expect anyone to know what ails you.

I never said I would expect you to know that (although the fact that I am standing behind you uncomfortably on two crutches should be a bit of a clue...) I am pointing out that you said a five minute delay was not an inconvenience. To a lot of people, it is. And people should be especially mindful of this when taking up other peoples' time to do something that could easily be done elsewhere (for example: teaching a child about coin values, as per the OP).
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 11:10:01 AM by perpetua »

Eeep!

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Re: Teaching moment?
« Reply #56 on: December 12, 2013, 11:08:34 AM »
I am neither surprised nor expect different from the attitude that everyone should cater to what annoys you.  However, as much as you "hate" that people are incompetant and inneficient...they are most often that way because of the attitude that children should not be allowed to do anything in public, because their slowness inconveniences you in some minute way. You can't have it both ways.  In order for adults to learn how to be efficient, they must be first be taught so, most efficiently as children.

Also, as bad as I feel that you can't stand for too long, it is a medical issue that no one else is responsible for.  I might let you go ahead of me if I knew that to be the case ahead of time, but I wouldn't expect anyone to know what ails you.

But the mom knew she was inconveniencing the OP. She remarked on it.  At that point she made a decision that her lesson for her child took precedence.  And OP says she continued to explain coins and count out money for another few minutes.  She could have sped up the lesson. Or switched it to a lesson about being aware of others around you, etc. but instead it almost sounds like she was proving some sort of point. And there are plenty of ways to teach your child to be efficient without making people behind you a part of that lesson.  To me the key point is that she was explaining the coins. If this was just a child counting slowly, it would be one thing. But explaining coins, how much they are worth, how they add up, etc. (which is what I am imagining) does not need to be done at the store. It just doesn't.  I consider myself an efficient person and I can safely say that my mother never did that.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

Teenyweeny

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Re: Teaching moment?
« Reply #57 on: December 12, 2013, 11:14:41 AM »
I am neither surprised nor expect different from the attitude that everyone should cater to what annoys you.  However, as much as you "hate" that people are incompetent and inefficient...they are most often that way because of the attitude that children should not be allowed to do anything in public, because their slowness inconveniences you in some minute way. You can't have it both ways.  In order for adults to learn how to be efficient, they must be first be taught so, most efficiently as children.

Also, as bad as I feel that you can't stand for too long, it is a medical issue that no one else is responsible for.  I might let you go ahead of me if I knew that to be the case ahead of time, but I wouldn't expect anyone to know what ails you.


The bolded is exactly what I mean when I say that people taking extra accommodations when they aren't needed spoil it for those with genuine difficulties.

I would love to live in a world where everybody who asked for or claimed special treatment was immediately assumed to have a genuine need. How nice that would be! Instead, we are left thinking "That lady asked to be served more quickly! Who does she think she is!", simply because there are so many special snowflakes out there, using up all our good will!

I'm also not responsible for a strange child's acquisition of life skills, if it comes to that. Also, I was *never* allowed to keep people waiting as a child. That's probably why I don't do it now. You can be taught life skills in a variety of ways, in a variety of settings.



Teenyweeny

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Re: Teaching moment?
« Reply #58 on: December 12, 2013, 11:18:16 AM »
To me the key point is that she was explaining the coins. If this was just a child counting slowly, it would be one thing. But explaining coins, how much they are worth, how they add up, etc. (which is what I am imagining) does not need to be done at the store. It just doesn't.  I consider myself an efficient person and I can safely say that my mother never did that.

Exactly. If you want to teach your child a skill, talk them through the basics somewhere else, before you go out to practice.



whatsanenigma

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Re: Teaching moment?
« Reply #59 on: December 12, 2013, 11:36:42 AM »

And I do think that people should be cognizant of others in line and not purposely take much longer than necessary to complete a transaction.  Taking a kid to a store at a non-busy time to teach them how to make a tranaction isn't a big deal.  The mother probably told her child that she could count the money and to renig on that just because someone got in line behind them is unreasonable...for 10 extra minutes, maybe...but not for two.  And this is nowhere near as much time as it takes for the person who waits until every item has been scanned to open up their purse and search for their checkbook.  Unfortunately, not everyone is super efficient and being that we have to share this world with them, we're going to be inconvenienced at times.

I actually agree with you on this.  How many stories do we have here on e-hell and elsewhere about a parent who keeps promising a given thing and then going back on it?   That you should keep your word, that in and of itself is a wonderful life lesson.

However, the problem to me is the form of the promise, if this is in fact what happened.  Given the fact that no two transactions are the same, the mother in this case should have promised (if she was going to promise at all) that as soon as it was a good time, the child could count the money.  It shouldn't have been a "next time" promise.


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