Author Topic: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG  (Read 10914 times)

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perpetua

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #30 on: December 22, 2013, 09:48:43 AM »
For me, if someone does not want to go to grab a drink, they go home.  It's not me being a bad friend, it is the other person making a decision for themselves.  Why would I not do what I want (grab a drink) just because my friend wants to do something else?  What did Rachel want the friends to do - all go home because she wanted to?  All come to the train station with her?  Accompany her home?  I am honestly asking, because in my group of friends if someone wants to do something, they cheerfully do it and don't ask other people to accompany them.  It would never occur to me to ask a friend to chaperone me!

They were already in the venue when the girls decided they wanted to go and get drinks (to bring back to their seats, as I understand it). Rachel couldn't make it up the stairs to do so, and she informed them of that limitation, so she remained seated while they went to get their drinks. To not come back with a drink for her when she was unable to get one herself is just nasty.

When did Rachel expect everyone to go home? It doesn't say that anywhere in the OP. At the end of the evening, she declined to go for a further drink and headed home instead because her condition had made her tired. I don't see the problem.


Margo

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #31 on: December 22, 2013, 10:17:51 AM »
Quote
- Should Rachel have pulled out of the movies and second concert regardless of what her friends said about coming anyway knowing she had mobility issues?
- Was Rachel a SS for expecting her friends to slow down or to stay with her?
- Are the friends rude or clueless or neither?
- Is the friendship waning?


1. No. She explained her limitation, they pressed her to come. It wasn't her fault that they either didn't believe, or didn't listen, to what she said.
2. No. not at all.
3. Yes. They may have been clueless initially, but the second time, they already knew she had limitations. And torush off and tell her to catch up? Totally ride and inappropriate.
4. Yes. it sounds as though this was a social group, not a mutually supportive group of friends.

It may well be that they don't realise how serious her condition is, but even so, after the original event they knew what type of limitation she had, but they chose to ignore them.

kherbert05

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #32 on: December 22, 2013, 11:00:05 AM »
And that is why I would like to hear the other side(s) to the story because it seems so over the top. I also don't really see how Rachel couldn't move at the movie but was able to get herself home on public transportation. I would love to hear from the others involved to get a better picture because the one version we have - Rachel's - seems outrageous and inconsistent to me.
A couple of things


At the movie it wasn't that she couldn't move it was that they ran off and left her alone on the road to the restaurant. Then at the Movies they refused to sit with her in the section for disabled patrons, and instead went to the very top of the theater. I'm going to make the assumption that this is similar to stadium seating in the US and those stairs are steep. I have trouble with them because the rope lights create an optical illusion that flips the stairs over.


At the concert most went off to shop one stayed with her. At the concert Rachel wanted to get drinks and stuff first - probably realizing she wasn't going to get up and down the stairs easily. Now if I had been with her, I would have insisted on going to the seats first also, but so that she could sit safely and maybe watch our bags while we went to get drinks and snacks. I would not have left her without anything to drink, like her "friends" did.


The next thing that happened makes me want to take a clue by 4 upside the other girl's heads. When the concert was over they LEFT HER at the seats and ran off. Leaving her to struggle on dangerous stairs with people trying to shove past. They left someone with visual problems and mobility issues alone in a crowd. They didn't just get separated - they left the VENUE. Even without issues you do not leave someone alone like that. As for being able to take public transportation - I'm going to assume that this being Australia that public transportation is rather up to date with disabled access, maybe even special services. I don't blame her for going home. But unless we are talking Rush our on the NY Subway or London Underground getting on or off public transportation is way different than trying to climb steep stairs in a rowdy crowd after a concert.


Rachel can do a couple of things.
1. She shouldn't have tried to struggle upstairs in that crowd. When I was a kid we would go to sport events that were crowded - especially when the Oilers were doing well or during Phi Slama Jamma it would be rowdy and crowded. Dad's attitude was stay seated and wait till the crowd thinned out. We had some friends with season tickets near us. They would jump up and leave as soon as the final down - or sometimes even earlier if the spread was more than a touchdown and extra point. We would pass friend's house and they would just be getting out of their car usually - even though they left 15 or more minutes before us - they just spent that time in a crowd while we finished our popcorn and talked about the game. Eventually friends started staying with us and talking.


2. I know this is hard and feels like giving up but she might want to consider renting or borrowing a wheelchair/scooter thing for activities that require more than her normal level of walking, or if it would help a cane (Maybe one that converts into a seat). Her disability is invisible, and as wrong as it is some people don't get it. Something visual might get more consideration.


Not on the same level as what she is dealing with but I've seen this with my skin condition. If I have a flair on my hands - people are generally jumping out of the woodwork to help me. They would even do things like tie Loren and Brett's shoes for me. When it is my feet - even when I speak up and explain I get an attitude from anyone I didn't grow up around (except BIL he gets it). Until I take off my shoes to change my socks and they see the formally white socks now red. Then their song changes.
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Queen of Clubs

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #33 on: December 22, 2013, 11:35:26 AM »
To me, they sound like fair-weather friends. If Rachel hasn't been sick like this before, they may not have had a "reason" to behave like this.

I agree with this.  Before, Rachel was able to keep up with the group, so there wasn't an issue.  Now, she's not able-bodied/healthy enough for them.

I'm chronically ill and disabled.  I can't do stairs any more and, when I still could, I wouldn't have been able to go up and down them a number of times, so getting drinks before going to sit down would be the sensible thing to do.  As another poster mentioned, when you're chronically sick, you have a limited amount of energy so you have to 'save' enough for necessary things like getting home.

These people are no longer acting as friends.  Rachel should dump them and stick to people who are still her friend despite her physical limitations.

Btw, if you talk to people who have become disabled or chronically sick, you'll find they usually have the same story to tell of losing friends who don't want to deal with the knock-on effects of their illness (limited mobility, limited energy, limited access to venues).

White Lotus

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #34 on: December 22, 2013, 01:24:45 PM »
I have been dealing with an injury that may be a permanent disability.  It comes and goes now, but generally, there are things I can't do.  People get MAD AT ME because I say I can't go somewhere or do something that I, uh, just can't manage because it will HURT and may disable me for a few days, and I cannot let that happen if I can prevent it.   People also forget entirely about the problem, no matter how often they are reminded. Things are supposed to instantaneously get better, I guess.  That things can take months or years and a lot of work and pain to get over, well, it doesn't occur.  It also does not occur to people who have never been disabled that it isn't something you can just "throw off" and that it somehow doesn't hurt, and that pain isn't, you know, painful, and therefore no fun at all.  That limits are limits, and ability isn't an all or nothing thing.  Yes, I can go to the museum opening.  No, I can't go to dinner afterwards.  Cannot do both.  Why is this not comprehensible?  But -- it doesn't seem to be.
All of these may apply, but these women were rude and inconsiderate in addition to all that.

Raintree

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #35 on: December 22, 2013, 04:14:57 PM »
I think it would help to have the other sides to the story, or else so much is conjecture. To me, it seems Rachel was not clear with her friends or honest with herself about the limitations of her disability.  Rather than label the friends jerks (which they may be, but I don't have enough information), it could be that they didn't realize Rachel was unhappy, or that she truly could not move up the stairs at the movie, for example.  I didn't hear in the story that Rachel actually said anything at the time.  For me, if someone does not tell me they are upset, I assume that they are not.  For me, if someone does not want to go to grab a drink, they go home.  It's not me being a bad friend, it is the other person making a decision for themselves.  Why would I not do what I want (grab a drink) just because my friend wants to do something else?  What did Rachel want the friends to do - all go home because she wanted to?  All come to the train station with her?  Accompany her home?  I am honestly asking, because in my group of friends if someone wants to do something, they cheerfully do it and don't ask other people to accompany them.  It would never occur to me to ask a friend to chaperone me!

She didn't ask them to chaperone her; they begged her to come with them to this show. As for the decision to go out and have drinks when Rachel wanted to go home, fine...go have drinks but that decision should be made together before leaving the venue; they should have stayed with her until she was safely on a train or in a cab, and then gone out for the second portion of the evening.

My dad is disabled and increasingly so as he ages (he was fully mobile just a few years ago). If I want to take him out somewhere, I modify the outing so that it's within his limits. That means that it's dinner OR a show; not both, as he can't manage too much in one go. Perhaps I would like to go do something afterwards with others who may be present, but that's fine...we make sure he's home first and then go do our thing. If he would like a drink or something else to make him comfortable, I get it for him. If I want to go out and enjoy something without these limitations, I do it without him, though I try to do other stuff that includes him at other times. For example, my sister came in from out of town and we wanted to eat at a specific restaurant. We debated bringing our father; we'd have liked him there, but we also wanted to relax and enjoy OUR time together, and as my sister put it, "It is a bit of a production to bring him."

We felt bad but we didn't say anything to him and we set aside another time to take him out so he could enjoy an outing too. But I would never dream of taking him (or another person with physical limitations) out and expecting to go about it as I normally would, at my normal pace.

perpetua

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #36 on: December 22, 2013, 04:33:48 PM »
I think it would help to have the other sides to the story, or else so much is conjecture. To me, it seems Rachel was not clear with her friends or honest with herself about the limitations of her disability.  Rather than label the friends jerks (which they may be, but I don't have enough information), it could be that they didn't realize Rachel was unhappy, or that she truly could not move up the stairs at the movie, for example.  I didn't hear in the story that Rachel actually said anything at the time.  For me, if someone does not tell me they are upset, I assume that they are not.  For me, if someone does not want to go to grab a drink, they go home.  It's not me being a bad friend, it is the other person making a decision for themselves.  Why would I not do what I want (grab a drink) just because my friend wants to do something else?  What did Rachel want the friends to do - all go home because she wanted to?  All come to the train station with her?  Accompany her home?  I am honestly asking, because in my group of friends if someone wants to do something, they cheerfully do it and don't ask other people to accompany them.  It would never occur to me to ask a friend to chaperone me!

She didn't ask them to chaperone her; they begged her to come with them to this show. As for the decision to go out and have drinks when Rachel wanted to go home, fine...go have drinks but that decision should be made together before leaving the venue; they should have stayed with her until she was safely on a train or in a cab, and then gone out for the second portion of the evening.

My dad is disabled and increasingly so as he ages (he was fully mobile just a few years ago). If I want to take him out somewhere, I modify the outing so that it's within his limits. That means that it's dinner OR a show; not both, as he can't manage too much in one go. Perhaps I would like to go do something afterwards with others who may be present, but that's fine...we make sure he's home first and then go do our thing. If he would like a drink or something else to make him comfortable, I get it for him. If I want to go out and enjoy something without these limitations, I do it without him, though I try to do other stuff that includes him at other times. For example, my sister came in from out of town and we wanted to eat at a specific restaurant. We debated bringing our father; we'd have liked him there, but we also wanted to relax and enjoy OUR time together, and as my sister put it, "It is a bit of a production to bring him."

We felt bad but we didn't say anything to him and we set aside another time to take him out so he could enjoy an outing too. But I would never dream of taking him (or another person with physical limitations) out and expecting to go about it as I normally would, at my normal pace.

That's my view on it too, from the opposite side of the coin; I'm the one with the disability. My friends either do things with me at my pace or we do things separately. I still do as much as I can with them but if I need to duck out and go home and not do part of the evening, they understand. If they didn't, they wouldn't still be my friends, because I don't need that kind of pressure or judgement in my life. Either accept me with my limitations or not at all; I'm afraid it's a package deal these days and I'm not going to cause myself physical damage or pain if someone doesn't understand that.

Until quite recently I was very active with a local amateur orchestra. I played with them for many years before I became disabled and I did my best to carry on as much as I could afterwards through loyalty to them and also because I enjoyed it and it was good for me. Then at a concert last summer, the conductor - who I knew well and who'd seen me try and fight my way back to health afterwards and all the struggles I had in doing so - tried to hurry me onto the stage. Apparently I wasn't taking my seat in a quick or professional enough manner - which was said to me while I was trying to haul myself up the steps to the stage on my crutches. The lack of understanding was disappointing. I've been much less active in the organisation since, because it left such a sour taste in my mouth.

Winterlight

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #37 on: December 22, 2013, 05:07:13 PM »
I think Rachel needs new friends.
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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #38 on: December 22, 2013, 06:20:24 PM »
I am honestly asking, because in my group of friends if someone wants to do something, they cheerfully do it and don't ask other people to accompany them.  It would never occur to me to ask a friend to chaperone me!

I believe in other threads you've mentioned that all your friends are fit, healthy people. Perhaps you've never had to deal with a friend who isn't physically capable of doing everything you can do.
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Piratelvr1121

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #39 on: December 22, 2013, 06:41:49 PM »
I think Rachel needs new friends.

If these people could even be called friends in the first place.  Heck I had a disabled friend in middle school (she was wheelchair bound) and didn't mind doing things differently so that we could sit together.  Going to the mall often meant going out of our way to find an elevator but I wasn't about to dart up the escalator and leave her to find an elevator on her own.
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TootsNYC

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #40 on: December 22, 2013, 07:04:28 PM »
Rachel needs to come to terms with the fact that there is a difference between friendship and a social group. And letting go of them will free her from the pain of feeling rejected.

I am so sorry for Rachel  :(


So wise!

I think the only thing she could have done differently is to stick by her guns when she said she couldn't go the second time--she was short-sighted to think they'd treat her any differently (though, that's not fair of me--Joanne did sound like she "got it" the 2nd time).

Now I'd suggest she email Joanne and say, "I need to opt out of the gift exchange--with my health, I simply can't get to the stores. Give everyone my apologies. If anybody's already purchased something, I hope they've kept the receipt."

And then she should just ignore them from here on out. Blow them off.

stargazer

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #41 on: December 22, 2013, 08:47:51 PM »
  Why would I not do what I want (grab a drink) just because my friend wants to do something else? 

This is really bugging me.  Maybe because you care about your friend and you want to make sure she gets home safely when you know she is having trouble moving (at least as fast as other people)?  I don't think anyone is saying they shouldn't have grabbed drinks, but to run out of the venue leaving her there to fend for herself instead of making sure she got in a cab or something is the epitome of "not friends".  You don't always do what you want because being a friend sometimes means you make sacrifices (and in this case, the sacrifice was not having a drink right away but making sure she was okay first).

shhh its me

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #42 on: December 22, 2013, 09:18:24 PM »
  Why would I not do what I want (grab a drink) just because my friend wants to do something else? 

This is really bugging me.  Maybe because you care about your friend and you want to make sure she gets home safely when you know she is having trouble moving (at least as fast as other people)?  I don't think anyone is saying they shouldn't have grabbed drinks, but to run out of the venue leaving her there to fend for herself instead of making sure she got in a cab or something is the epitome of "not friends".  You don't always do what you want because being a friend sometimes means you make sacrifices (and in this case, the sacrifice was not having a drink right away but making sure she was okay first).

I think there is a difference between "hey , do you want to come for drinks?"  and while completely separated from your friend who has no clue where you went and texting her " we're at the bar you can join us." *its not clear if she had to text first to find out where they were*  They sort of ditched her, if they told her when they were still in their seats and got separated sure.

Piratelvr1121

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #43 on: December 22, 2013, 09:20:49 PM »
  Why would I not do what I want (grab a drink) just because my friend wants to do something else? 

This is really bugging me.  Maybe because you care about your friend and you want to make sure she gets home safely when you know she is having trouble moving (at least as fast as other people)?  I don't think anyone is saying they shouldn't have grabbed drinks, but to run out of the venue leaving her there to fend for herself instead of making sure she got in a cab or something is the epitome of "not friends".  You don't always do what you want because being a friend sometimes means you make sacrifices (and in this case, the sacrifice was not having a drink right away but making sure she was okay first).

POD.  Maybe it's just how I am but it wouldn't sit well with me to run off on even a physically fit friend without being sure they had secured a ride home.  (I'm one of those people who will make sure someone's inside their home safely before leaving and wants people to call/text when they've arrived home safely, if they drove themselves)

Drinks can wait, it doesn't take that long to make sure someone has secured a safe way home and say "Call/text me when you're home!" before then going off to the bars.  To run off without bothering to make sure that Rachel had a safe way home, IMO, says clearly that they don't really care.
Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars.  You have a right to be here. Be cheerful, strive to be happy. -Desiderata

Yvaine

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #44 on: December 22, 2013, 09:24:02 PM »
To me, they sound like fair-weather friends. If Rachel hasn't been sick like this before, they may not have had a "reason" to behave like this.

I agree with this.  Before, Rachel was able to keep up with the group, so there wasn't an issue.  Now, she's not able-bodied/healthy enough for them.

Yup, the weather's always been fair till now. It's when it rains that you find out who your real friends are.