Author Topic: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG  (Read 11321 times)

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Yvaine

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #60 on: December 22, 2013, 10:15:25 PM »
I don't think friendship should really be treated as a survival of the fittest type scenario. Either you're friends (so you help and care for one another), or you're not (so you don't pressure non-friends into an evening out). It seems a pretty cold friendship that lacks sensitivity to such great needs. I am often very thoughtless, and I can understand someone just being clueless, but this is way beyond that. They're behaving in a way that I would expect of children who haven't fully developed empathy yet; I expect more kindness out of my five year old.

This. In a true friendship, you look out for each other and are considerate when someone has limitations (temporary or more long-term) because you want that person's company. Maybe tomorrow Joanne will sprain her ankle and need the gang to slow down a little for her, and maybe she'll gain a little empathy. Real, true friendships aren't a competition where you're you have to race to the bar and the last one there is a rotten egg (unless, I suppose, you're actually explicitly playing that game, lol). The point is enjoying one another's company and caring for each other, not proving you're tougher than someone else.

TurtleDove

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #61 on: December 22, 2013, 10:16:46 PM »
My perspective would change entirely if Rachel directly asked for help and her friends said "no." That's not what I read from the OP though.

NyaChan

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #62 on: December 22, 2013, 10:18:59 PM »
I also don't in general think there is anything wrong with going onwards even if one of a group decides to go home.  Unless there is some safety concern with getting a cab or walking to their car in a bad neighborhood, it wouldn't occur to me to drop them off at their transport unless they asked me to.  To be honest, if it was a safe, populated area with no reason why they shouldn't be fine getting there themselves, I'd be a little irritated to have to do it if it was out of the way. 

Here I think the girls messed up, not because they decided to go for a drink instead of sending Rachel home, but because they essentially abandoned one of their group without hesitation.  Even if I had gotten separated in the crowd after forgetting that my friend can't move that fast, I would have waited outside for her to catch up and then told her that we were going to a bar.  I would not have left the venue altogether and then informed her where we went. 

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #63 on: December 22, 2013, 10:19:58 PM »
My perspective would change entirely if Rachel directly asked for help and her friends said "no." That's not what I read from the OP though.

But that's basically what happened. Rachel told Joanne that her mobility and vision were not good. Then, *twice* during the course of the evening, she said that the stairs were difficult for her. The response her friends gave was basically "Too bad, we don't care, you're slowing us down, gotta get to the bar!" They may not have said that with words, but their actions spoke loud and clear.
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stargazer

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #64 on: December 22, 2013, 10:20:24 PM »
My perspective would change entirely if Rachel directly asked for help and her friends said "no." That's not what I read from the OP though.

Seriously, how many clues do you need?  People have already copied and bolded the parts where Rachel made it clear she was having issues.  That is the point in which friends make sure you are okay before taking off to have more fun.

Yvaine

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #65 on: December 22, 2013, 10:22:43 PM »
My perspective would change entirely if Rachel directly asked for help and her friends said "no." That's not what I read from the OP though.

But that's basically what happened. Rachel told Joanne that her mobility and vision were not good. Then, *twice* during the course of the evening, she said that the stairs were difficult for her. The response her friends gave was basically "Too bad, we don't care, you're slowing us down, gotta get to the bar!" They may not have said that with words, but their actions spoke loud and clear.

She also gave them money for a drink, which I assume was accompanied by a request that they bring her something (after all, their whole dialogue isn't transcribed here for obvious reasons). They ignored it, vanished for an hour and a half, and brought her nothing.

baglady

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #66 on: December 22, 2013, 10:24:54 PM »
Maybe it is, as TurtleDove says, a "life stage thing," and Rachel's friends simply don't have a lot of experience dealing with a person their age who has physical limitations. However, that does *not* excuse their behavior.

One of my dearest friends has rheumatoid arthritis and some other issues that compromise her mobility and wear her out easily. She uses a walker, one crutch, two crutches or nothing, depending on what kind of day/hour/minute she's having. We have roadtripped to a couple of concerts together, and I wouldn't have dreamed of leaving her side for a moment (except to use the restroom) any more than I would consider hopping a spaceship to Mars. We are both in a different "life stage" from TurtleDove, and from Rachel and her friends -- we're both 55. But illness and disability can strike anyone at any age.

TD, I know from your other posts on this forum that you are in excellent physical condition, and it's a point of pride for you. As well it should be -- you work very hard at it. But someday you will not be, even if you are spared a disabling illness or accident. It's called getting older. When -- not if -- that happens, I hope you will gain some appreciation for those who understand and work with/around your limitations.

As for Rachel, I think her friends are simply in denial about her limitations. She's well enough to go to the concert, so she's well enough to keep up with them, go partying afterward, etc. I admit to being guilty of this with friends who have mental health issues. You're on meds, right? So everything's cool, right? Except it isn't.

If I were Rachel, and these friends came calling again with another concert/night out invitation, I'd say no and spell out chapter and verse why: "When we went to the show on X date, I couldn't keep up with you and I got flak for it. You left the venue without me to go to the bar and left me to find my own way. This was unpleasant and downright scary. I don't want to go through that again."
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TurtleDove

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #67 on: December 22, 2013, 10:27:14 PM »
Hah! This is very interesting and maybe cultural? I don't do "clues." If you want me to do something, ask me directly. If I want something from you, same deal. No guesswork. I am guessing that's where the divide comes in. If a friend directly asked me to walk her to the train I would. If she didn't ask me to, and then said I was a bad friend for not reading her mind....well, I don't have friends like that!

stargazer

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #68 on: December 22, 2013, 10:28:53 PM »
Well, they aren't really "clues" when she expressly tells them she is having trouble.  She mentions it many times.  I don't think it's a cultural or age thing, I think it's an empathy thing.

kherbert05

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #69 on: December 22, 2013, 10:29:20 PM »
  Why would I not do what I want (grab a drink) just because my friend wants to do something else? 

This is really bugging me.  Maybe because you care about your friend and you want to make sure she gets home safely when you know she is having trouble moving (at least as fast as other people)?  I don't think anyone is saying they shouldn't have grabbed drinks, but to run out of the venue leaving her there to fend for herself instead of making sure she got in a cab or something is the epitome of "not friends".  You don't always do what you want because being a friend sometimes means you make sacrifices (and in this case, the sacrifice was not having a drink right away but making sure she was okay first).

I think there is a difference between "hey , do you want to come for drinks?"  and while completely separated from your friend who has no clue where you went and texting her " we're at the bar you can join us." *its not clear if she had to text first to find out where they were*  They sort of ditched her, if they told her when they were still in their seats and got separated sure.
Not only that but they left her in physcial danger on a set of stairs with people pushing and shoving to get by.
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Mel the Redcap

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #70 on: December 22, 2013, 10:35:17 PM »
Hah! This is very interesting and maybe cultural? I don't do "clues." If you want me to do something, ask me directly. If I want something from you, same deal. No guesswork. I am guessing that's where the divide comes in. If a friend directly asked me to walk her to the train I would. If she didn't ask me to, and then said I was a bad friend for not reading her mind....well, I don't have friends like that!

"I couldn't keep up last time and you griped about it, you need to understand I'm still having vision and mobility problems."
"I can't handle the stairs more than once, if we're going to get drinks we're going to have to do that first."

That's pretty clear to me. And I can understand not thinking to walk her to her transport, but they didn't even stick with her until she made it out of the building.

TurtleDove, you're fit and self-sufficient and happy that way and wouldn't want anyone to 'coddle' you. That's fine. But if one of your friends broke her leg, or developed arthritis, or anything else that meant she couldn't keep up with you and wasn't completely confident and self-sufficient any more, would your attitude be "Gee, you're a drag to be around now! See ya when you can keep up!"? Because that's how your comments are making you sound. I apologise if I'm misreading your tone.
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baglady

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #71 on: December 22, 2013, 10:36:23 PM »
Hah! This is very interesting and maybe cultural? I don't do "clues." If you want me to do something, ask me directly. If I want something from you, same deal. No guesswork. I am guessing that's where the divide comes in. If a friend directly asked me to walk her to the train I would. If she didn't ask me to, and then said I was a bad friend for not reading her mind....well, I don't have friends like that!

She didn't ask them to walk her to the train because they weren't there. They'd already decamped to the bar without her.
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TurtleDove

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #72 on: December 22, 2013, 10:36:47 PM »
If my friend asked for help I would be al over it. I don't see Rachel did that.

Outdoor Girl

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #73 on: December 22, 2013, 10:39:27 PM »
I don't have a problem with the friends going off and getting a drink, even though Rachel wasn't up to doing that.  I've been in Rachel's shoes; when I'm done, I'm done and I go home.

What I do have a problem with is her friends not making sure she got out of the venue safely and telling her, in person, that they were continuing their evening at the bar down the street.  Good friends would also have made sure she made it to the train station/subway OK before they took off.

I was on vacation with a good friend and her boyfriend, as well as some other friends of theirs that I didn't know well.  We'd been out for dinner and we were wandering around some shops and looking at things.  My back started to hurt a great deal and I couldn't do any more strolling without being in severe pain.  So I let them know that I was going back to the hotel and to have a good time.  About an hour later, there is a knock at my door.  My friend's BF was there, letting me know they were sitting in a bar down the street, having a beer.  Did I want to join them, now that they were sitting down?  I went with him to the bar and met up with everyone.
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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #74 on: December 22, 2013, 10:39:33 PM »
I wouldn't expect my friends to escort me anywhere, and I would be irritated if they wanted to. I wonder if the friends are just more like me? Different people expect different things - I wonder if Rachel's friends have no idea she is upset. Like I said, I would never in a million years expect my friends to escort me home when they are having a fun time. I would be upset if they wanted to.

We aren't talking about wanting to be escorted anywhere. This is a group of friends who supposedly went to an event TOGETHER. Then, they didn't sit with her, and didn't wait for her; instead, they texted her to tell her they had already left and to come meet them. I don't see the point in asking someone to attend something WITH you, and then abandoning them. Even with able-bodied people, if I'm at a movie or theater and we somehow get separated on the way out, we all find each other in the lobby and decide as a group, "Who wants to go for drinks now?" The people who aren't coming don't come, and the people who are going, go together, or decide to meet there if they are driving separately. But the decision is made together. Perhaps if we couldn't find one person, we might try texting them to let them know where we've gone. But the game changes entirely when one of the people has a physical disability; of COURSE I'd wait for them!!

These people just didn't feel like waiting for her. They are callous and rude; I can't see what possible "other side of the story" there could be, unless it's "Well we kept offering to wait, and she just said no no, go ahead. And we asked her if she wanted us to sit with her, and she said no, go grab the better seats. We tried to help her get to the pub, but she stubbornly refused and said she could get there on her own. And then she got mad at us when we didn't help!!"