Author Topic: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG  (Read 11444 times)

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jaxsue

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #75 on: December 22, 2013, 10:39:38 PM »
Well, they aren't really "clues" when she expressly tells them she is having trouble.  She mentions it many times.  I don't think it's a cultural or age thing, I think it's an empathy thing.

This. I am currently fit and active. However, I spent 1/2 of the year disabled from a very bad ankle break (2 operations, therapy). I wasn't able to get around like I am used to. I hated it, but I got a taste of how it was to have physical limitations. As a result I now have empathy. It's not a bad trait to have.

aussie_chick

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #76 on: December 22, 2013, 10:39:56 PM »
Op here again.

Thank you so much for your input and feedback. I'm spoken to Rachel this morning and given her some eHell feedback and can provide a little follow up.

I told Rachel about this post that was a light bulb moment for me:

- There is a difference between a social circle and true friendships.

Rachel agreed with this and then laughed and said that right now she didn't even feel part of the social circle given the other events that have happened before and after that she hasn't been invited to. But was ok with it, because she's forming new circles with a new group she has joined.

Rachel has already purchased gifts for the gift exchange so is going to go ahead with that but has said in the coming year she is not going to force this friendship to continue. There will be no huge fall out or argument, just that she will pull back and not be so keen to continue this relationship, in whatever form it has or may take.

If any of the girls ever speaks about the 2 events (movies and concert) Rachel has said she may be honest with them about how that situation felt to her, but it will depend on what outcome she wants to achieve. Since she's not keen to retain this relationship, she may say nothing as it's not worth investing in an argument or discussion that won't change anything.

Rachel's dad works at a store about an hour away from where she and the girls live. One of the girls, Kim has contacted Rachel today and asked if her dad would mind buying an item from that store and bringing it home with him tonight. Kim will then give Rachel's dad the money. The item costs over $300! I told Rachel that I thought this was a huge ask and presumptuous to think that Rachel's dad would have $300 available 2 days before Christmas to purchase this item. I told her I realised he was going to get the money back immediately, but he would still have to have the cash available to do it in the first place. Rachel was shocked that Kim would even think to ask, given that they've barely spoken since the concert.

I even gave Rachel one of Ehell's favourite phrases "That won't be possible" to use to say no to Kim. But I did suggest that Rachel should tell Kim "no" as soon as possible so that Kim can make other arrangements before the store closes. That it would be petty to not say anything and just turn up at the gift exchange and then tell her it wasn't possible.

Yvaine

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #77 on: December 22, 2013, 10:47:25 PM »
Wow, it sounds like they only like Rachel when she's convenient or when they want something from her. They sound like pieces of work, and I'm glad Rachel seems to have some good perspective on what they're like and realistic outcomes.

Raintree

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #78 on: December 22, 2013, 11:26:20 PM »
The item costs over $300! I told Rachel that I thought this was a huge ask and presumptuous to think that Rachel's dad would have $300 available 2 days before Christmas to purchase this item. I told her I realised he was going to get the money back immediately, but he would still have to have the cash available to do it in the first place.

Not to mention, from my retail days, I recall that it was a pain to pick up items for people. I did it for people who were close to me, but it was something I had to do either on my break (which was short enough already) or after work when I wanted to go home. It meant lining up at the counter with everyone else when the store might be very busy. And, since our store had very strict security procedures, and recognizing that theft by employees is a huge problem in the industry, it meant taking that parcel to a secure room and having a member of management sign and seal it up with a tag to be kept for the rest of my shift. In short, it's a bunch of extra errands at a busy time of year. Perhaps that is for a spin-off thread because as I recall, the requests were endless.

merryns

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #79 on: December 22, 2013, 11:36:36 PM »
Are we really living in a world where if someone doesn't explicitly say to their friends "Please don't run off and leave me at the venue by myself" then that's an OK thing to do? It's not "asking for help" to expect people who go to an event with you as a group to at least let you know that they are kicking on without you before they leave. Especially when they know you have health limitations.
Someone who did verbally confirm all these basic social expectations in advance would rightly be seen as paranoid and weird.
 

MrsJWine

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #80 on: December 22, 2013, 11:40:22 PM »
I think what constitutes empathy is not a universal truth though. I would be irritated or offended if a friend wanted to babysit me! That's why, unless someone asked me directly to do something for them, I would assume they had their life and choices in check.

I think a universal of empathy is that a person at least makes an effort to show consideration for a friend. So, if your friends don't fuss over you when you're sick/injured/depressed, that's great; they're doing what they know you want a friend to do for you. Empathy is not a one-size-fits-all set of directions; it's the ability to put yourself in other people's shoes and respond accordingly. When I'm sad, I hate to be hugged. That kind of attention embarrasses me, and I'm kind of weird about personal space. But if a friend who likes hugs is sad, I will hug her. She is my friend. I don't do what *I* would want; I do what *she* would want. These women aren't even trying to put themselves in her shoes.

Rachel made is pretty clear through both of these events that she *did* need help and consideration, and their response was basically, "Too bad. If you can't keep up, we'll ditch you." That's super shady. It's shady if you're with an able-bodied friend. It's even worse if you slip away on a person who is physically unable to keep up, especially if she's forewarned you that she will be having these problems during the outing.


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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #81 on: December 22, 2013, 11:47:31 PM »
Well, they aren't really "clues" when she expressly tells them she is having trouble.  She mentions it many times.  I don't think it's a cultural or age thing, I think it's an empathy thing.

This. I am currently fit and active. However, I spent 1/2 of the year disabled from a very bad ankle break (2 operations, therapy). I wasn't able to get around like I am used to. I hated it, but I got a taste of how it was to have physical limitations. As a result I now have empathy. It's not a bad trait to have.

Even with the meetup events I attend, even though often most of us have only known each other for a few hours, we usually walk back to our cars as a group or go together as a group to get drinks after the events.  Virtual strangers show more consideration for each other than Rachel's supposed friends did for her.

I have always had friends with various disabilities that need to be accommodated in order for me to enjoy the pleasure of their company.  Like Jaxsue, I spent six months of this year in a fracture boot/on crutches/in a brace/limping and pretty much disabled myself, and my friends had to accommodate me.

I terminated my previously close friendship with someone partly because he persistently ignored the limitations on my activities due to the pain I was in and the clumsiness of the crutches/braces - and, actually, didn't seem concerned that I was injured at all.  There were a number of other issues at play in that end of a friendship, but that display of callousness was a pretty big factor.

On top of that, I wouldn't think highly of any friends that left me alone somewhere and went somewhere else together because I was slow following them for some reason - being informed by text message that the group had moved onto the bar, especially if I couldn't get there easily, would make me feel like an afterthought to their plans and not actually welcome.

Iris

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #82 on: December 23, 2013, 12:07:04 AM »
Are we really living in a world where if someone doesn't explicitly say to their friends "Please don't run off and leave me at the venue by myself" then that's an OK thing to do? It's not "asking for help" to expect people who go to an event with you as a group to at least let you know that they are kicking on without you before they leave. Especially when they know you have health limitations.
Someone who did verbally confirm all these basic social expectations in advance would rightly be seen as paranoid and weird.

This. I have no particular physical limitations and nor do any of my friends, but if you get separated in a crowd leaving a concert the normal, polite thing to do is to all meet up at the venue before heading off, surely? I think the disability thing is a bit of a red herring thing in this case. If the OP had said "Rachel went to a concert with her friends. At the end the friends managed to get on the first lift down, but then Rachel got stuck and it took her a while to get down. The friends had left and gone to a bar" I would think the friends were rude.

I was taught that the basics of good manners are that if you GO with someone you LEAVE with them. Nothing to do with coddling or whatever. Once you meet up at the end you may decide to say goodbye and head in different directions, sure, but you at least bother to say goodbye for goodness sake.
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Yarnspinner

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #83 on: December 23, 2013, 12:27:58 AM »
I read this story in horror and have been reading some of the responses in equal horror.  As the adult daughter of a handicapped parent (who has now passed on) it never once occurred to me to think "Too Bad, so sad, Mom, you will have to meet us when you meet us." 

I have been disabled myself (two leg braces and a cane for a knee injury) and the friends I attended a play with in New York matched their speed to mine.  We planned accordingly so that we would be to the restaurant and play on time, but there was no sense that we had to rush along or that I was inconveniencing any one.  Of course, my friends and I were going to the play together because we enjoy each other's company and not because they were hoping to get a good holiday gift from me.

I think that is why some of the responses threw me.  When I go to dinner with Susan who has MS and is in a wheelchair, I might meet her downtown after work.   She is usually able to traverse the distance from where she is to the restaurant, but if the chair malfunctions, I stay with her until her husband can get there to pick her up since the chair won't fit in my car.  If we were going to a movie afterward, if she can't go, I probably won't go because socializing with Susan was the main point of going out.  Yes, we are watching a movie, but the point was for us to be able to discuss it afterward.  Not much point in going by myself if there's no one to discuss it with later.

Jacie is mobile, but has serious health issues that preclude her walking quickly.  She doesn't ask me to slow down, but I do since we are at the museum/historical monument/fair to enjoy it together as friends.  Walking off and leaving her (except on a prearranged schedule where we meet back up later) is not on the menu.  Why would I abandon the person I was planning to spend time with?

Marta has had a traumatic brain injury.  She is all better now, but there was a whole year where carrying on conversations with her was a trial.  Her short term memory had been temporarily impaired and she thought I was her best friend from kindergarten.  She could not remember certain words and always substituted the word "spoon" no matter what the topic was.  I still called her every week, visited her twice a month and helped to clean her house and cook for her because it's what friends DO for each other.  I didn't need to be asked...I just did it.

Both Jacie and Marta rearranged their work schedules for me when I had major surgery and wasn't able to get up and down stairs.  They shopped for me and cleaned my house, not because I asked them to, but because it's what we were taught in our families.  Another friend drove me to and from appointments and I have returned the favor over the years.  It's what you DO for the people who mean the most in your life.

Even my most casual work acquaintances and I make sure that we get to our cars and are safely settled in, that lights turn on and engines turn over before we leave each other.  It's what we were taught as kids.  You don't leave anyone alone, you don't leave anyone behind and you make certain of their safety.

It isn't coddling and it isn't treating someone like a child...it is just what you DO because these are your friends and you look out for each other.  And you do it without being asked, especially if you know the person in question is sick or has mobility issues.  I guess I am very old fashioned and silly. 

This brave new world where you abandon someone because they can't walk fast enough, forget to get them drinks because they can't get up and down stairs, and then...expect them to give you gifts is a pretty ugly one.  I don't think I will visit in any time soon.

« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 12:32:29 AM by Yarnspinner »

Mel the Redcap

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #84 on: December 23, 2013, 12:32:15 AM »
Yarnspinner, you're the sort of friend I want (and luckily, the sort of friend I have!). :-*
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Tea Drinker

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #85 on: December 23, 2013, 12:33:08 AM »
I have a friend who walks slowly and with a cane (because of a childhood injury). She tries not to let the injury slow her down more than necessary, and she doesn't like anyone feeling sorry for her. But she knows her limitations, which include that she she can't run for a bus, and her friends accept that. It's not that big a deal to get somewhere slightly later, because the walk from the bus took longer, or to leave slightly earlier to catch the bus.

If you think of it in terms of "life stages," my friend has been in that stage since she was twelve years old. I didn't know her then, so i don't know how long it took her to find people who value her as a person enough not to care that going places together might be a little slower than with someone else.
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Yarnspinner

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #86 on: December 23, 2013, 12:33:29 AM »
Mel, you sound like you would be a good friend to have as well.  We are both lucky to have those kinds of friends!

Nikko-chan

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #87 on: December 23, 2013, 12:34:49 AM »
I read this story in horror and have been reading some of the responses in equal horror.  As the adult daughter of a handicapped parent (who has now passed on) it never once occurred to me to think "Too Bad, so sad, Mom, you will have to meet us when you meet us." 

I have been disabled myself (two leg braces and a cane for a knee injury) and the friends I attended a play with in New York matched their speed to mine.  We planned accordingly so that we would be to the restaurant and play on time, but there was no sense that we had to rush along or that I was inconveniencing any one.  Of course, my friends and I were going to the play together because we enjoy each other's company and not because they were hoping to get a good holiday gift from me.

I think that is why some of the responses threw me.  When I go to dinner with Susan who has MS and is in a wheelchair, I might meet her downtown after work.   She is usually able to traverse the distance from where she is to the restaurant, but if the chair malfunctions, I stay with her until her husband can get there to pick her up since the chair won't fit in my car.  If we were going to a movie afterward, if she can't go, I probably won't go because socializing with Susan was the main point of going out.  Yes, we are watching a movie, but the point was for us to be able to discuss it afterward.  Not much point in going by myself if there's no one to discuss it with later.

Jacie is mobile, but has serious health issues that preclude her walking quickly.  She doesn't ask me to slow down, but I do since we are at the museum/historical monument/fair to enjoy it together as friends.  Walking off and leaving her (except on a prearranged schedule where we meet back up later) is not on the menu.  Why would I abandon the person I was planning to spend time with?

Marta has had a traumatic brain injury.  She is all better now, but there was a whole year where carrying on conversations with her was a trial.  Her short term memory had been temporarily impaired and she thought I was her best friend from kindergarten.  She could not remember certain words and always substituted the word "spoon" no matter what the topic was.  I still called her every week, visited her twice a month and helped to clean her house and cook for her because it's what friends DO for each other.  I didn't need to be asked...I just did it.

Both Jacie and Marta rearranged their work schedules for me when I had major surgery and wasn't able to get up and down stairs.  They shopped for me and cleaned my house, not because I asked them to, but because it's what we were taught in our families.  Another friend drove me to and from appointments and I have returned the favor over the years.  It's what you DO for the people who mean the most in your life.

Even my most casual work acquaintances and I make sure that we get to our cars and are safely settled in, that lights turn on and engines turn over before we leave each other.  It's what we were taught as kids.  You don't leave anyone alone, you don't leave anyone behind and you make certain of their safety.

It isn't coddling and it isn't treating someone like a child...it is just what you DO because these are your friends and you look out for each other.  And you do it without being asked, especially if you know the person in question is sick or has mobility issues.  I guess I am very old fashioned and silly. 

This brave new world where you abandon someone because they can't walk fast enough, forget to get them drinks because they can't get up and down stairs, and then...expect them to give you gifts is a pretty ugly one.  I don't think I will visit in any time soon.

Can i just hug you for this post? You know, considering we don't have a like button here.

Yarnspinner

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #88 on: December 23, 2013, 12:38:06 AM »
I have a friend who walks slowly and with a cane (because of a childhood injury). She tries not to let the injury slow her down more than necessary, and she doesn't like anyone feeling sorry for her. But she knows her limitations, which include that she she can't run for a bus, and her friends accept that. It's not that big a deal to get somewhere slightly later, because the walk from the bus took longer, or to leave slightly earlier to catch the bus.

If you think of it in terms of "life stages," my friend has been in that stage since she was twelve years old. I didn't know her then, so i don't know how long it took her to find people who value her as a person enough not to care that going places together might be a little slower than with someone else.

This.  I have been wondering about the references to "life stages" and cultural "things".  Is it a life stage to not wonder if you physically challenged friend got to where she was going because you couldn't wait for her?  I have been through many life stages...none of them included not caring if someone could keep up with me or not.  The ONLY time I might have been at a "life stage" was in my early twenties and full of myself and kind of annoyed that my (up to that point) healthy mother had lost her vision and her ability walk quickly to diabetes and I often felt I was being put upon.  I chalk that up, however, to being in my twenties and full of myself.  Then I realized that I had more patience with people who annoyed me than my own mother....talk about feeling ashamed of yourself....perhaps Rachel is older than these friends and therefore more mature???

perpetua

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Re: Clueless? Frenemies? Or trying to tell you the friendship is over? LONG
« Reply #89 on: December 23, 2013, 01:11:32 AM »
Turtledove, why do you keep insisting that Rachel expected her friends to escort her to the train? It doesn't *say* that in the OP. It says that she decided to go home and left to catch the train. I don't even know where you're getting that from.

You're making out like Rachel is playing on her disability to inconvenience her friends by throwing in things she never even did. I find that very offensive.

Implying that people aren't 'fun to be around' because of their disabilities is also very offensive.