Author Topic: More uninvited guest (sort of) questions - bit long sorry.  (Read 8082 times)

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bah12

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Re: More uninvited guest (sort of) questions - bit long sorry.
« Reply #60 on: December 27, 2013, 06:02:05 PM »
Because people acting like mature adults and allowing an ex to go to their own child's birthday is out of the ordinary?  They've been divorced for five years.  I get that people don't generally like exes, but after five years I would hope that they can at least figure out how to be in the same space with them when it comes to a child.  And, it even looks like they can/did figure it out, because that's exactly what happened.

Sure, it would have been better to check with Linda.  But again, not doing the absolute most perfect thing, still doesn't mean that he was wrong for accepting his child's invitation. 

JoieGirl7

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Re: More uninvited guest (sort of) questions - bit long sorry.
« Reply #61 on: December 27, 2013, 06:03:38 PM »
But he didn't invite himself - Pam invited him. Without the consent of her mother, perhaps, but she still invited him. Dave might not have known she did it on her own. Should he have checked? Perhaps. Was he rude not to do so? No. Possibly thoughtless, but unless he knew Pam hadn't talked it over with Linda, I wouldn't call him rude.

It makes me think of a slightly different scenario though - let's say Pam wasn't the GoH, but a cohost, what would people's opinions be then?

Any adult should know that an invitation from a child needs to be checked with the relevant adult.  Should he have checked? Absolutely! No perhaps about it!

Had Pam been younger I would agree, but if I recall correctly she's 11 - plenty old enough to pass on an invitation from her mother without being checked up on. And if that is how she presented it to Dave... how was he to know otherwise? Sure, he'll know now that he has to check, but hindsight is 20/20, and he might have thought it was all prearranged.

Of course if Pam said something like "Oh, come along! Mum won't mind" or in other ways made it clear that she didn't know, then I agree that he ought to have checked. But we don't know.

Not to mention, different households have different rules.  It seems that posters are treating Dave like he's any random adult.  Like all of sudden, the fact that he's her father is irrelevent simply because he's divorced from her mother.  Him being her father makes a difference.

My best friend, who is divorced from her first husband and who's second husband is divorced from his first wife (both sets have shared children) don't put that kind of pressure on their kids.  If they want parents around for birthday, graduations, weddings, etc, then they get to invite them.  This whole "neutral territory" thing never comes up.  They may not be married, but they still co-parent.  And my friend HATES her ex-husband.  She can't stand him.  But she does have three kids with him, so she puts those feelings aside regardless of how much she wishes her kids did want second birthdays with just their dad and his new wife.  She also happens to not be very fond of her husband's ex...but you know, she gets to show up to her kids stuff too.  Why?  Because instead of the adults treating the children like their wishes (especially on their days) don't matter when it comes to having their parents in their lives...they act like adults.  It's amazing...but it does work.
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No one is treating him as irrelevant.  If anything, posters are acknowledging that the mother and her boundaries are relevant.

For adults to cooperate in the way that you describe, they need to be a part of the conversation. 

If anything, the fact that he is her father makes it that much more important for him to be completely above board with Linda and to keep the lines of communication crystal clear.

JoieGirl7

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Re: More uninvited guest (sort of) questions - bit long sorry.
« Reply #62 on: December 27, 2013, 06:10:51 PM »
Because people acting like mature adults and allowing an ex to go to their own child's birthday is out of the ordinary?  They've been divorced for five years.  I get that people don't generally like exes, but after five years I would hope that they can at least figure out how to be in the same space with them when it comes to a child.  And, it even looks like they can/did figure it out, because that's exactly what happened.

Sure, it would have been better to check with Linda.  But again, not doing the absolute most perfect thing, still doesn't mean that he was wrong for accepting his child's invitation.

It seems that you are making the judgement that everyone should do it the way you have described and so any way that actually occurs makes whatever happened along the way ok.

Remember, Linda has the right to not want to do things together with her ex.

MariaE

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Re: More uninvited guest (sort of) questions - bit long sorry.
« Reply #63 on: December 27, 2013, 06:19:16 PM »
Quote
But he didn't invite himself - Pam invited him. Without the consent of her mother, perhaps, but she still invited him. Dave might not have known she did it on her own. Should he have checked? Perhaps. Was he rude not to do so? No. Possibly thoughtless, but unless he knew Pam hadn't talked it over with Linda, I wouldn't call him rude.

It makes me think of a slightly different scenario though - let's say Pam wasn't the GoH, but a cohost, what would people's opinions be then?

Any adult should know that an invitation from a child needs to be checked with the relevant adult.  Should he have checked? Absolutely! No perhaps about it!

Had Pam been younger I would agree, but if I recall correctly she's 11 - plenty old enough to pass on an invitation from her mother without being checked up on. And if that is how she presented it to Dave... how was he to know otherwise? Sure, he'll know now that he has to check, but hindsight is 20/20, and he might have thought it was all prearranged.

Of course if Pam said something like "Oh, come along! Mum won't mind" or in other ways made it clear that she didn't know, then I agree that he ought to have checked. But we don't know.

I still believe that he should have checked it with Linda.  She had never invited him to stay before that--it was out of the ordinary.  I won't give him a pass.  There was no reason for him not to say anything to Linda about why he was staying.  His odd behavior of going inside the house while everyone else was outside just makes it that much worse.

Guess we shall just have to agree to disagree then.
 
Dane by birth, Kiwi by choice

Psychopoesie

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Re: More uninvited guest (sort of) questions - bit long sorry.
« Reply #64 on: December 27, 2013, 06:21:43 PM »
OP here. I expect Linda spoke with Pam about this too but don't really recall. She was more steamed with her ex - because he was old enough to know better in her opinion. Both parents had talked through the arrangements pretty thoroughly beforehand - Dave had to know he was not expected (as did Pam who was also consulted about the arrangements). So Pam didn't lie to her dad about her mum being ok with him coming she just asked him to stay for the party.

I doubt Pam was thinking this might bring her parents back together. Her mother was in a long term relationship with someone else who the kids adored. He didn't live with them.

This can be tricky territory for divorced parents to navigate. There isn't a one size fits all solution.



bah12

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Re: More uninvited guest (sort of) questions - bit long sorry.
« Reply #65 on: December 27, 2013, 06:24:58 PM »
Because people acting like mature adults and allowing an ex to go to their own child's birthday is out of the ordinary?  They've been divorced for five years.  I get that people don't generally like exes, but after five years I would hope that they can at least figure out how to be in the same space with them when it comes to a child.  And, it even looks like they can/did figure it out, because that's exactly what happened.

Sure, it would have been better to check with Linda.  But again, not doing the absolute most perfect thing, still doesn't mean that he was wrong for accepting his child's invitation.

It seems that you are making the judgement that everyone should do it the way you have described and so any way that actually occurs makes whatever happened along the way ok.

Remember, Linda has the right to not want to do things together with her ex.

No...actually that is what it seems that you are saying.  Linda has the right not to want to do things with her ex.  She also has the obligation (as does her ex) to communicate that with him and work things out.  There is zero evidence in any of the OP's post that they agreed to never be in each other's homes.  As a matter of fact, considering that Linda seemed to allow the invite to follow through, that she actually did the mature thing and put her feelings aside.  If you've had a bad experience with an ex, or know of those that do (I do know those couples as well), then I can see where you are drawing your strong opinion of Dave's ill-intentions from.  But, I have to be clear that this argument that you just made works both ways...just because you know people (or are those people) that can't be in the presence of those you don't like, doesn't mean that everyone is wrong to do it.  Just because Linda doesn't like Dave doesn't mean they can't ever be around each other.  Linda told her friend she was uncomfortable...ok, totally understandable (afterall, they are exes).  That doesn't make Dave wrong.  Heck, how do you know he too wasn't uncomfortable.  This isn't about Linda and Dave...it's also about Pam.  Linda and Dave seem to have made that distinction already, so I'm not sure what the argument is about.

bah12

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Re: More uninvited guest (sort of) questions - bit long sorry.
« Reply #66 on: December 27, 2013, 06:30:37 PM »
OP here. I expect Linda spoke with Pam about this too but don't really recall. She was more steamed with her ex - because he was old enough to know better in her opinion. Both parents had talked through the arrangements pretty thoroughly beforehand - Dave had to know he was not expected (as did Pam who was also consulted about the arrangements). So Pam didn't lie to her dad about her mum being ok with him coming she just asked him to stay for the party.

I doubt Pam was thinking this might bring her parents back together. Her mother was in a long term relationship with someone else who the kids adored. He didn't live with them.

This can be tricky territory for divorced parents to navigate. There isn't a one size fits all solution.

So, they talked about doing things separately...obviously since Dave took Pam out that morning, but do you know if was clear that he wasn't welcome at Linda's party...or Linda welcom to join them in bowling, or just that they had planned separate things?  I can totally see how the parent of an 11 year old would give their child the benefit of the doubt to not deliberately go against her mother's wishes. I can see them having fun together bowling and Pam saying "Dad, please stay for my party.  It will be so much fun and mean so much to me" and him not thinking twice about it.  Especially if the mom is in a happy committed relationship, then Dave isn't thinking that she's still hurt over their divorce...right?  She's moved on.  THeir daughter wants him to stay, really, what is the big deal? (I can see where someone would reason it that way).

I get why Linda was angry and it's justified, but I still can't assign malice to Dave for thinking he was invited after he was invited.

Psychopoesie

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Re: More uninvited guest (sort of) questions - bit long sorry.
« Reply #67 on: December 27, 2013, 06:51:54 PM »
Hi OP again

Linda was not welcome to join the bowling or any of the other separate birthday events they'd planned in the years post divorce. Part of her vent was along the lines of how would he feel if I showed up., etc. They don't have the kind of relationship where they willingly socialise with each other. New partners have not changed that dynamic.

The kids get dropped off at the driveway by each parent. There is usually a quick handover chat to catch up on whatever is going on with the kids. Neither invites the other in. Most contact is by phone. That's how they've managed it. It works for them.

Sometimes exes can't resist pushing one another's buttons. I suspect Dave may have been doing this - win/win situation for him since he gets to please his daughter and annoy his ex wife at the same time. It's possible my suspicions are unfair to Dave - I'm not exactly unbiased.

AnnaJ

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Re: More uninvited guest (sort of) questions - bit long sorry.
« Reply #68 on: December 27, 2013, 06:57:26 PM »
Hi OP again

Linda was not welcome to join the bowling or any of the other separate birthday events they'd planned in the years post divorce. Part of her vent was along the lines of how would he feel if I showed up., etc. They don't have the kind of relationship where they willingly socialise with each other. New partners have not changed that dynamic.

The kids get dropped off at the driveway by each parent. There is usually a quick handover chat to catch up on whatever is going on with the kids. Neither invites the other in. Most contact is by phone. That's how they've managed it. It works for them.

Sometimes exes can't resist pushing one another's buttons. I suspect Dave may have been doing this - win/win situation for him since he gets to please his daughter and annoy his ex wife at the same time. It's possible my suspicions are unfair to Dave - I'm not exactly unbiased.

That's what I saw it as, a win/win for Dave, and no way for Linda to win...which is why I vote major rude action on Dave's part, and absolutely something that Linda needs to discuss with Pam.

JoieGirl7

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Re: More uninvited guest (sort of) questions - bit long sorry.
« Reply #69 on: December 27, 2013, 07:35:23 PM »

No...actually that is what it seems that you are saying.  Linda has the right not to want to do things with her ex.  She also has the obligation (as does her ex) to communicate that with him and work things out.  There is zero evidence in any of the OP's post that they agreed to never be in each other's homes.

Well, there was the history they had of not being in each others' homes.

But this is the key point that we apparently disagree on.  The way I see it the default setting etiquette wise is that you don't come without permission.  Not you can do as you like if not specifically banned.


Quote from: bah12
As a matter of fact, considering that Linda seemed to allow the invite to follow through, that she actually did the mature thing and put her feelings aside.

That doesn't mean that the intrusion was welcome.

Quote from: bah12
If you've had a bad experience with an ex, or know of those that do (I do know those couples as well), then I can see where you are drawing your strong opinion of Dave's ill-intentions from.

I haven't used anyone that I know as an example in this case.  And I have said that my opinion has nothing to do with Dave's intentions.  I don't know what his intentions were, but I look at his behavior and I think he was rude to do what he did.

Quote from: bah12
But, I have to be clear that this argument that you just made works both ways...just because you know people (or are those people) that can't be in the presence of those you don't like, doesn't mean that everyone is wrong to do it.

I agree with you and I never made that argument at all.  It's strictly an etiquette point that you don't come in uninvited and that the invitation must be valid--meaning it has to be backed up by the person who has the authority to give it.  I don't see that it has anything to do with being around people you don't like. 

If one of my kids had invited anyone at all into my home without my permission, I would not have been happy about it.  It has nothing to do with how I feel about someone personally and everything to do with it being my home and me having a say in who comes in or not.

And if I do have to invite someone for the sake of my child, I know I must do it wholeheartedly and not grudgingly.

Quote from: bah12
Just because Linda doesn't like Dave doesn't mean they can't ever be around each other.  Linda told her friend she was uncomfortable...ok, totally understandable (afterall, they are exes).  That doesn't make Dave wrong.

I agree, it's not what makes Dave wrong.  What made Dave wrong was not talking to her before staying.  That's what made Dave wrong in my eyes.   That she is uncomfortable is the evidence that there was no precedent for him to do what he did.

Again, in my opinion, the default is set on, "you don't come in unless invited."

Quote from: bah12
Heck, how do you know he too wasn't uncomfortable.  This isn't about Linda and Dave...it's also about Pam.  Linda and Dave seem to have made that distinction already, so I'm not sure what the argument is about.

if he is uncomfortable, he can leave.  He created the situation, he has the power to end it.

I agree that its about Pam--which makes the communication and respect they show for each other to be that much more important.

That is what confuses me about your position.  If Dave can override Linda's boundaries as long as it benefits his daughter somehow, that actually works against them having an amicable relationship.

It seems to me that he loves and respects the child by loving and respecting her mother.  And he does  that by not making an end run around her.

I totally understand what you are saying about parents getting along.  I totally agree with you--in the absence of truly abusive behavior, parents should put aside their differences for the good of their children.  But, I think that begins with respecting each others' boundaries, whether that be the threshold of their home or the word "no" from their lips.

bah12

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Re: More uninvited guest (sort of) questions - bit long sorry.
« Reply #70 on: December 27, 2013, 07:48:41 PM »
We only seem to disagree on whether our not Dave was invited. I think an 11 year old should be permitted to invite her own parents to her birthday party. If Linda doesn't think do, then she should tell Pam. Is she did, this is on Pam not Dave.  Now, if Dave forbids Linda from going to his celebrations for Pam, then he's a big hypocrite.

m2kbug

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Re: More uninvited guest (sort of) questions - bit long sorry.
« Reply #71 on: December 27, 2013, 08:10:43 PM »
What is not being understood is the dynamics of the rel@tionship and the reason for the divorce and the continued level of boundaries.  The kid doesn't get free choice to allow people into her mother's personal space just because it's her father.  There is a reason Linda did not want him there.  There is a reason they maintain boundaries and those reasons do not necessarily diminish after five years and it has nothing to do with being mature.  It has a lot to do with keeping a person that can damage you personally and psychologically and possibly even physically (not saying anything about Dave) outside of your personal space, your comfort zone, including your home or including a party you host at Skateland.  There are other times you can't avoid together time and you make the best of it.  It's unfortunate this is considered immature.  Dave was rude all on it's own merit, but even more so for imposing himself into a situation that clearly made the host and his child's mother very uncomfortable when he knew, beforehand, he was not an invited guest.  She allowed him to stay, yes, and great for her for pulling it off.  Pam doesn't get last word because it's daddy.  She doesn't get to pick whether or not daddy gets to come into her mother's home.  Frankly I think Pam was old enough to know better and old enough to understand the dynamics of her family no matter how innocent or not-so-innocent her motivations were. 

citadelle

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Re: More uninvited guest (sort of) questions - bit long sorry.
« Reply #72 on: December 27, 2013, 08:28:58 PM »
What is not being understood is the dynamics of the rel@tionship and the reason for the divorce and the continued level of boundaries.  The kid doesn't get free choice to allow people into her mother's personal space just because it's her father.  There is a reason Linda did not want him there.  There is a reason they maintain boundaries and those reasons do not necessarily diminish after five years and it has nothing to do with being mature.  It has a lot to do with keeping a person that can damage you personally and psychologically and possibly even physically (not saying anything about Dave) outside of your personal space, your comfort zone, including your home or including a party you host at Skateland.  There are other times you can't avoid together time and you make the best of it.  It's unfortunate this is considered immature.  Dave was rude all on it's own merit, but even more so for imposing himself into a situation that clearly made the host and his child's mother very uncomfortable when he knew, beforehand, he was not an invited guest.  She allowed him to stay, yes, and great for her for pulling it off.  Pam doesn't get last word because it's daddy.  She doesn't get to pick whether or not daddy gets to come into her mother's home.  Frankly I think Pam was old enough to know better and old enough to understand the dynamics of her family no matter how innocent or not-so-innocent her motivations were.

It occurs to me that perhaps Pam thinks of it as *Pam's* home, rather than her mother's home.

m2kbug

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Re: More uninvited guest (sort of) questions - bit long sorry.
« Reply #73 on: December 27, 2013, 08:47:30 PM »
What is not being understood is the dynamics of the rel@tionship and the reason for the divorce and the continued level of boundaries.  The kid doesn't get free choice to allow people into her mother's personal space just because it's her father.  There is a reason Linda did not want him there.  There is a reason they maintain boundaries and those reasons do not necessarily diminish after five years and it has nothing to do with being mature.  It has a lot to do with keeping a person that can damage you personally and psychologically and possibly even physically (not saying anything about Dave) outside of your personal space, your comfort zone, including your home or including a party you host at Skateland.  There are other times you can't avoid together time and you make the best of it.  It's unfortunate this is considered immature.  Dave was rude all on it's own merit, but even more so for imposing himself into a situation that clearly made the host and his child's mother very uncomfortable when he knew, beforehand, he was not an invited guest.  She allowed him to stay, yes, and great for her for pulling it off.  Pam doesn't get last word because it's daddy.  She doesn't get to pick whether or not daddy gets to come into her mother's home.  Frankly I think Pam was old enough to know better and old enough to understand the dynamics of her family no matter how innocent or not-so-innocent her motivations were.

It occurs to me that perhaps Pam thinks of it as *Pam's* home, rather than her mother's home.

It is her home that she lives in, but it's her mother's space.  I don't see Pam paying the mortgage.  This is a different dynamic than roommates or spouses, these are divorced parents.  Parents get to choose who comes in their home.  Children do not always get those choices.

citadelle

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Re: More uninvited guest (sort of) questions - bit long sorry.
« Reply #74 on: December 27, 2013, 09:41:02 PM »
What is not being understood is the dynamics of the rel@tionship and the reason for the divorce and the continued level of boundaries.  The kid doesn't get free choice to allow people into her mother's personal space just because it's her father.  There is a reason Linda did not want him there.  There is a reason they maintain boundaries and those reasons do not necessarily diminish after five years and it has nothing to do with being mature.  It has a lot to do with keeping a person that can damage you personally and psychologically and possibly even physically (not saying anything about Dave) outside of your personal space, your comfort zone, including your home or including a party you host at Skateland.  There are other times you can't avoid together time and you make the best of it.  It's unfortunate this is considered immature.  Dave was rude all on it's own merit, but even more so for imposing himself into a situation that clearly made the host and his child's mother very uncomfortable when he knew, beforehand, he was not an invited guest.  She allowed him to stay, yes, and great for her for pulling it off.  Pam doesn't get last word because it's daddy.  She doesn't get to pick whether or not daddy gets to come into her mother's home.  Frankly I think Pam was old enough to know better and old enough to understand the dynamics of her family no matter how innocent or not-so-innocent her motivations were.

It occurs to me that perhaps Pam thinks of it as *Pam's* home, rather than her mother's home.

It is her home that she lives in, but it's her mother's space.  I don't see Pam paying the mortgage.  This is a different dynamic than roommates or spouses, these are divorced parents.  Parents get to choose who comes in their home.  Children do not always get those choices.
Agreed. But most children don't see it that way.