Author Topic: I guess you don't really want a job, do you?  (Read 13146 times)

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Hillia

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Re: I guess you don't really want a job, do you?
« Reply #45 on: January 05, 2014, 11:28:45 AM »
I had to feel a little sorry for BIL once.  He's a journalist and both jobs he has held at newspapers have been in very small, rural communities.  In each case, there was absolutely zero competition for the jobs, and he just walked into the local office with samples of his work, dressed neatly khakis in and a polo, and got the job.  These experiences, combined with a lifetime of his parents telling him that he was the hottest thing on the face of the earth  ::), gave him a pretty skewed idea of how life works in other places.  He relocated to a major metropolitan area for 18 months to go to school, and hoped to get a part time job at the local newspaper.  We drove him downtown   to the newspaper office the day before he planned to go down and apply, and he was chagrined to see how the people working downtown in a major city were dressed for work - primarily suits on the men, at the very least dress slacks, long sleeved shirts and ties.  He was very surprised the next day to find that he couldn't just walk in off the street and spend an hour chatting with the editor about getting a job.

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Yvaine

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Re: I guess you don't really want a job, do you?
« Reply #46 on: January 05, 2014, 11:30:00 AM »
Even the good worker can be clueless.  At one professional office I worked, we had a quite competent young woman who knew about what clothes to wear and how to wear them, but apparently nobody had ever talked to her about wearing glitter into work at 20.  (She may just not have understood the difference between "makeup for the club" vs "makeup for the office".  It got worked out by conversation with some of the others of her age in the office.)



There is also a lot of information out there that is flat out wrong. 

Putting these two together, sometimes the worst thing is when people think they know the real, true best advice for something but really their information is faulty. Fashion magazines will promote "looks for the office" that don't really work for the office, but the worker thinks she's following the current dictates of the workplace because she doesn't realize the fashion magazine is just trying to sell her stuff. Workers will think they know "you have to pound the pavement and apply in person" and annoy HR people who only want online applications, because that was the way it worked the last time they were out in the job market, 30 years ago. If people know they don't know what to do, they can look it up, but if they think they know but have the wrong info, they won't know to look or where to look.

cicero

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Re: I guess you don't really want a job, do you?
« Reply #47 on: January 06, 2014, 03:22:53 AM »
Even the good worker can be clueless.  At one professional office I worked, we had a quite competent young woman who knew about what clothes to wear and how to wear them, but apparently nobody had ever talked to her about wearing glitter into work at 20.  (She may just not have understood the difference between "makeup for the club" vs "makeup for the office".  It got worked out by conversation with some of the others of her age in the office.)



There is also a lot of information out there that is flat out wrong. 

Putting these two together, sometimes the worst thing is when people think they know the real, true best advice for something but really their information is faulty. Fashion magazines will promote "looks for the office" that don't really work for the office, but the worker thinks she's following the current dictates of the workplace because she doesn't realize the fashion magazine is just trying to sell her stuff. Workers will think they know "you have to pound the pavement and apply in person" and annoy HR people who only want online applications, because that was the way it worked the last time they were out in the job market, 30 years ago. If people know they don't know what to do, they can look it up, but if they think they know but have the wrong info, they won't know to look or where to look.
this is all true, bu i think it's a part of growing up (no matter how *old* one is). if i am continuously *not* getting a job, having interviews cut very short, missing out on promotions time and time again (and in different jobs/environments), then at *some point* I might start asking myself "why", instead of blaming the environment/economics/the boss is sleeping with the receptionist/etc. because while all those reasons may be valid reasons, sometimes it *is* actually *me* and not *something /someone else*.

And I agree - having fallen into that trap as well - that sometime you will read something in a reputable book/magazine about what to say/how to stand out/what to wear - many of which do not apply at all to the real world, or apply to a very small specific segment of it - and you will take that as gospel and run with it "because the book/magazine/expert said so" (and at the time it *did* sound logical, and hey, they *must* know because they are the experts), and it's hard to change.

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wyliefool

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Re: I guess you don't really want a job, do you?
« Reply #48 on: January 06, 2014, 09:10:45 AM »
If all kids receive a trophy or pass to the next grade or get praised for breathing, why would they strive to be their best?  In their world there is no reason to do so, as they believe what they want will be handed to them anyway.  These people carry this attitude with them throughout their lives, unless someone takes the time to point it out to them.

This is a major negative side effect of the 'self-esteem movement' as it's been practiced in schools and child-rearing in the last couple decades.

Quote
They should accept him for who he is!
Yes but that means 'not hating you because you're [a nerd]' not 'whatever you do is a-ok'--that's the main misunderstanding that seems to have happened.

Then you get the other extreme, as seen on Dateline last night when teens were getting plastic surgery so they could fit in. Ugh.

ETA--they also waste so much time teaching to standardized tests nowadays that actual useful knowledge has seemingly disappeared. My mom took retirement as soon as she could because she just couldn't stand the curriculum--such as it was--anymore.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 09:24:32 AM by wyliefool »

Yvaine

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Re: I guess you don't really want a job, do you?
« Reply #49 on: January 06, 2014, 09:49:36 AM »
Even the good worker can be clueless.  At one professional office I worked, we had a quite competent young woman who knew about what clothes to wear and how to wear them, but apparently nobody had ever talked to her about wearing glitter into work at 20.  (She may just not have understood the difference between "makeup for the club" vs "makeup for the office".  It got worked out by conversation with some of the others of her age in the office.)



There is also a lot of information out there that is flat out wrong. 

Putting these two together, sometimes the worst thing is when people think they know the real, true best advice for something but really their information is faulty. Fashion magazines will promote "looks for the office" that don't really work for the office, but the worker thinks she's following the current dictates of the workplace because she doesn't realize the fashion magazine is just trying to sell her stuff. Workers will think they know "you have to pound the pavement and apply in person" and annoy HR people who only want online applications, because that was the way it worked the last time they were out in the job market, 30 years ago. If people know they don't know what to do, they can look it up, but if they think they know but have the wrong info, they won't know to look or where to look.
this is all true, bu i think it's a part of growing up (no matter how *old* one is). if i am continuously *not* getting a job, having interviews cut very short, missing out on promotions time and time again (and in different jobs/environments), then at *some point* I might start asking myself "why", instead of blaming the environment/economics/the boss is sleeping with the receptionist/etc. because while all those reasons may be valid reasons, sometimes it *is* actually *me* and not *something /someone else*.

And I agree - having fallen into that trap as well - that sometime you will read something in a reputable book/magazine about what to say/how to stand out/what to wear - many of which do not apply at all to the real world, or apply to a very small specific segment of it - and you will take that as gospel and run with it "because the book/magazine/expert said so" (and at the time it *did* sound logical, and hey, they *must* know because they are the experts), and it's hard to change.

True, but as for the former paragraph, we have no way of knowing what point any individual job applicant is at. We see someone dressed all wrong and we don't know if that's his first job interview in decades and he hasn't clued in yet, or if it's his fiftieth and he maybe should have gotten a clue by now.

I've suddenly found myself remembering my dad's resume, when he was applying for jobs when I was about 10. I'm glad I didn't try to emulate it when I got older! I don't know what sources he was reading, if any, but it included his height, weight, marital status, my mom's name, number of children...

cicero

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Re: I guess you don't really want a job, do you?
« Reply #50 on: January 06, 2014, 10:01:36 AM »
Even the good worker can be clueless.  At one professional office I worked, we had a quite competent young woman who knew about what clothes to wear and how to wear them, but apparently nobody had ever talked to her about wearing glitter into work at 20.  (She may just not have understood the difference between "makeup for the club" vs "makeup for the office".  It got worked out by conversation with some of the others of her age in the office.)



There is also a lot of information out there that is flat out wrong. 

Putting these two together, sometimes the worst thing is when people think they know the real, true best advice for something but really their information is faulty. Fashion magazines will promote "looks for the office" that don't really work for the office, but the worker thinks she's following the current dictates of the workplace because she doesn't realize the fashion magazine is just trying to sell her stuff. Workers will think they know "you have to pound the pavement and apply in person" and annoy HR people who only want online applications, because that was the way it worked the last time they were out in the job market, 30 years ago. If people know they don't know what to do, they can look it up, but if they think they know but have the wrong info, they won't know to look or where to look.
this is all true, bu i think it's a part of growing up (no matter how *old* one is). if i am continuously *not* getting a job, having interviews cut very short, missing out on promotions time and time again (and in different jobs/environments), then at *some point* I might start asking myself "why", instead of blaming the environment/economics/the boss is sleeping with the receptionist/etc. because while all those reasons may be valid reasons, sometimes it *is* actually *me* and not *something /someone else*.

And I agree - having fallen into that trap as well - that sometime you will read something in a reputable book/magazine about what to say/how to stand out/what to wear - many of which do not apply at all to the real world, or apply to a very small specific segment of it - and you will take that as gospel and run with it "because the book/magazine/expert said so" (and at the time it *did* sound logical, and hey, they *must* know because they are the experts), and it's hard to change.

True, but as for the former paragraph, we have no way of knowing what point any individual job applicant is at. We see someone dressed all wrong and we don't know if that's his first job interview in decades and he hasn't clued in yet, or if it's his fiftieth and he maybe should have gotten a clue by now.

I've suddenly found myself remembering my dad's resume, when he was applying for jobs when I was about 10. I'm glad I didn't try to emulate it when I got older! I don't know what sources he was reading, if any, but it included his height, weight, marital status, my mom's name, number of children...
reminds of when my DS was in a "get back into the workforce" program for young adults with emotional/mental issues. The particular program he was in at the time was bad, there were a lot of problems with it, but one thing that really got me was that his counselor "taught" them how to "correctly" write and send a CV - it had all kinds of personal info and there was no cover letter. yeah, i don't think so. i told him it was wrong and i explained why. she (20 something YO recent college grad) insisted that I (50 something YO with tons of experience in job searches and interviewing/screening candidates) was wrong. Poor DS was torn - he knew that i was right but the counselor wouldn't send on his info to the "job" (that actually didn't even exist, as we found out, but that's a different story), unless DS did it "right"...

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Margo

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Re: I guess you don't really want a job, do you?
« Reply #51 on: January 06, 2014, 10:39:28 AM »
<snip>
reminds of when my DS was in a "get back into the workforce" program for young adults with emotional/mental issues. The particular program he was in at the time was bad, there were a lot of problems with it, but one thing that really got me was that his counselor "taught" them how to "correctly" write and send a CV - it had all kinds of personal info and there was no cover letter. yeah, i don't think so. i told him it was wrong and i explained why. she (20 something YO recent college grad) insisted that I (50 something YO with tons of experience in job searches and interviewing/screening candidates) was wrong. Poor DS was torn - he knew that i was right but the counselor wouldn't send on his info to the "job" (that actually didn't even exist, as we found out, but that's a different story), unless DS did it "right"...

Oh, that would have made me me so hopping mad!!

I did have an 'advisor' at he job centre during my (mercifully brief) period of unemployment when I first graduated who insisted on reviewing my CV.

She suggested I make changes to it by:
- taking my name off the top in order to put "Curriculum Vitae" in big letters there instead presumably because a potential employer wouldn't know it was a CV, otherwise. And heaven forfend I should make it easy for them to tell  who I am
- adding in my marital status how is this relevant?
- adding in all my GCSE grades in detail - i.e. listing all the subjects and the grade for each subbject, and as a result cutting out some of my recent, relevant experience for someone leaving school with just GCSEs, the details may be relevant. When they are 6 years old and you've got A levels, a degree and post-grad qualifications which are relevant to the the job you're applying for, not so much. 

Fortunately I didn't have to submit job applications through them so I just told her the suggestions were very interesting, and carried on with the CV I'd already got.  I do wonder how many people followed her advice and made life more difficult for themselves as a result.

(edited as I messed up the Quote)
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 11:29:10 AM by Margo »

Mel the Redcap

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Re: I guess you don't really want a job, do you?
« Reply #52 on: January 06, 2014, 11:06:16 AM »
I once went in for an interview (I didn't get the job, but it was fairly close) and in the more casual discussion afterwards as one of the interviewers walked me out she complimented me for being the only applicant so far who hadn't listed their age. :P
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GreenHall

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Re: I guess you don't really want a job, do you?
« Reply #53 on: January 06, 2014, 01:08:33 PM »

True, but as for the former paragraph, we have no way of knowing what point any individual job applicant is at. We see someone dressed all wrong and we don't know if that's his first job interview in decades and he hasn't clued in yet, or if it's his fiftieth and he maybe should have gotten a clue by now.

I've suddenly found myself remembering my dad's resume, when he was applying for jobs when I was about 10. I'm glad I didn't try to emulate it when I got older! I don't know what sources he was reading, if any, but it included his height, weight, marital status, my mom's name, number of children...

Lets see what I did to the quote tree...

I was helping to dispose of some files in my office, and came across Resumes from hirings a decade or more ago.  There were SSN's on some of the resumes. 

LadyJaneinMD

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Re: I guess you don't really want a job, do you?
« Reply #54 on: January 06, 2014, 01:31:22 PM »
I once interviewed for a job in shorts and a t-shirt, and got the job!   
I was working night shift, and the new company said that I could come right over at 8am when I was done with work, and I said, 'but I'll be all grubby and casual'.  They said Fine, and I got the job. 
Computer geek, bigtime.  It helps to be a woman in the Unix field. 

But, the rest of the time, I've always dressed up for interviews.  My mother taught me the 'proper' dress, although I've never owned a suit, and I learned how to write a resume from books and friends over the years.  (I started long before the Internet was around). 

During one time of unemployment, I had to go to a 'class' at the Unemployment Office about how to look for a job, and unfortunately, not a single one of their 'tips' applied to me - looking for a computer job online.  Fortunately, I already knew how to find a job online, and did find one within a month. 

SamiHami

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Re: I guess you don't really want a job, do you?
« Reply #55 on: January 06, 2014, 01:32:03 PM »
This has got me remembering some from a few years ago...

Applicant sends in resume and cover letter for an entry level position at a life insurance company. Her cover letter was quite lengthy, in which she blathered on for pages about her great love of the written word and that she intended to have a brilliant career as a novelist, etc. She made it clear that the job we had to offer was nowhere hear her areas of interest.

Applicant for a residency position at a teaching hospital (medical doctor)-shows up for the interview in lime green stretch pants, easily two sizes too small. During the welcoming talk by the department chairman she whips out her nail clippers and proceeds to cut her nails.

Another residency applicant was rude to me unless anyone else was around. She was goopy and sickly sweet as long as others were in earshot. Otherwise she was demanding and dismissive of whatever I had to say. I told this to the review board and they threw her file in the "reject" pile without even looking at it or discussing it.

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Outdoor Girl

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Re: I guess you don't really want a job, do you?
« Reply #56 on: January 06, 2014, 01:52:59 PM »
I was really lucky the last time I was updating and sending out my resume.  A friend of mine had just been laid off (not so lucky for her) and part of her lay off package was a course on resume writing and interviewing.  She paid attention and found another job quite quickly.

She gave me her resume electronically and I just followed everything she did - there were 2 or 3 styles with instructions on which style of job got which style of resume.  It must have worked for me, too, because I got several interviews when I used them, as well as getting a couple of different jobs.  I won't need them again, I don't think.  My job is reasonably stable and I don't intend to leave it until I retire in 10 years, come August.

Somebody upthread mentioned construction workers, applying for jobs.  I wouldn't expect them to be in shirts and ties but I would expect them to be clean and neat, in well mended clothes.  So knocking the dirt off their steeltoes, clean jeans or work pants with no holes in the knees or the back end, clean t-shirt, preferably collared, no ball cap.

I work in a job with a field element to it but most of the time, I'm in a laid back, casual office.  Jeans and tees are pretty much the regular uniform.  When my boss does interviews, he'll upgrade to slacks, button down or plain dress shirt, with a tie.  Somebody coming to an interview here in a three piece suit would be considered to be trying too hard but if they interviewed well and had a good resume, that wouldn't knock them out of the running.  Our AA is the one who books interviews and greets the applicants when they arrive, settling them in the lobby with some reading material if they are a bit early or the previous interview is running a bit over.  The boss and whoever else is interviewing always ask her for her impressions at the end of the day.  Anyone who is rude to her?  Off the list.  Frankly, she's the most important person to keep happy in this office.  She does so much for us that the AAs in other offices across the province don't do and it makes our lives so much easier.  She prefers it because she can keep a tighter rein on the filling and make sure stuff doesn't get messed up and that she can find it when she needs it.
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Re: I guess you don't really want a job, do you?
« Reply #57 on: January 06, 2014, 07:50:44 PM »
I count myself pretty lucky that out of the six job interviews I've had when I applied for jobs in the last ten years, only one place did not hire me the same day as the interview nor did they hire me. Then again I was typically prepared for the interview and tried my best to have all the correct information, look nice (looking back I still think I was over dressed!), and was generally polite the entire time.

I guess some people think it's okay to come into an interview looking like they just rolled out of bed or at least have a copy or two of their resume.

learningtofly

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Re: I guess you don't really want a job, do you?
« Reply #58 on: January 07, 2014, 08:43:13 AM »
The last time I was laid off my company paid for an outplacement center.  They went over my resume with me and held classes on interviewing, negotiating, and the like.  I also had to go to the classes unemployment offered.  The guy offered so much bad advice.  I had been taught not to answer the phone unless I was prepared to interview on the spot.  That no one else should be answering my phone, especially children and people who didn't have good message taking skills.  He told people to cold call places and leave note pads by the phone so relatives could take messages.  He covered a bit on internet searches, but at no point did he advise people on how to dress.  The way he had people write their resumes was from the 90s.  There were a lot of other things he did wrong, and I was so grateful to get out of there and never return.  I felt bad for people who had no one else to turn to for advice.

Arila

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Re: I guess you don't really want a job, do you?
« Reply #59 on: January 07, 2014, 04:04:41 PM »
It's crazy that in this day and age people don't know how to interview properly. I thought that basic interview etiquette was common knowledge.

I was not taught interviewing skills until college. There were no professional development courses offered in high school. For people who don't go to college (or don't take that elective) who come from families where the parents might not remember interviewing or have never really done it successfully themselves, I am not surprised that many people don't know how it works.