Author Topic: S/O unwanted pet discipline - guests vs. pets...  (Read 7695 times)

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EllenS

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Re: S/O unwanted pet discipline - guests vs. pets...
« Reply #45 on: January 05, 2014, 10:35:18 PM »
I would not expect someone to put their pet in another room, but I would absolutely expect that the animal be kept off of me.  I love animals, and I have pets, and I would never let a pet get on someone's lap without their express permission.  If your dog or cat gets on my lap or touches my face, and I do not want it there, it is going to get gently moved away.
This. So very much this.

I have a friend who has a new german shepherd puppy (Pup is ~6 months old currently). On one visit to their home, I was sitting on the floor next to my 4yo son, who was on a chair, to show him how to comfortably interact with a frisky puppy. (He was initially terrified, so this was Big Progress.) Pup came around and jumped on me from behind. I put her down on the ground. Friend said "Oh, she's allowed to do that."  ::) No. She is not allowed to jump on me. Not ever. Let her play dominance games with you. I get to choose whether I want to play that way.

Pup was better about jumping the last time I visited. Now she "wants to feel everything with her mouth." She doesn't bite, but I'm sure a whole lot of people who are not afraid of dogs find it disconcerting to have their hands engulfed by her mouth.

You can choose to not want a dog to don that but had you done that to my dog in my home you would be escorted out.  It is not your place to physically restrain someone else's dog especially in their home.

Yeah, I think the problem here is, it would not have been Marbles' right to aggressively "discipline" the dog, in the sense of trying to dominate it back or retrain it, but it is also not the host's right to say the dog is "allowed to" jump on Marbles.   If a host thinks they have rights over their guest's bodies, that is a problem.

If an animal is in unwanted physical contact with a guest, I do not think the guest needs to wait for the host's permission, approval, or intervention to stop the physical contact.  However I do think the guest should use the gentlest possible means of doing so, preferably by simply moving away.

sparksals

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Re: S/O unwanted pet discipline - guests vs. pets...
« Reply #46 on: January 05, 2014, 10:36:41 PM »
I would not expect someone to put their pet in another room, but I would absolutely expect that the animal be kept off of me.  I love animals, and I have pets, and I would never let a pet get on someone's lap without their express permission.  If your dog or cat gets on my lap or touches my face, and I do not want it there, it is going to get gently moved away.
This. So very much this.

I have a friend who has a new german shepherd puppy (Pup is ~6 months old currently). On one visit to their home, I was sitting on the floor next to my 4yo son, who was on a chair, to show him how to comfortably interact with a frisky puppy. (He was initially terrified, so this was Big Progress.) Pup came around and jumped on me from behind. I put her down on the ground. Friend said "Oh, she's allowed to do that."  ::) No. She is not allowed to jump on me. Not ever. Let her play dominance games with you. I get to choose whether I want to play that way.

Pup was better about jumping the last time I visited. Now she "wants to feel everything with her mouth." She doesn't bite, but I'm sure a whole lot of people who are not afraid of dogs find it disconcerting to have their hands engulfed by her mouth.

You can choose to not want a dog to don that but had you done that to my dog in my home you would be escorted out.  It is not your place to physically restrain someone else's dog especially in their home.

In someone's home or not, any person has the right to physically restrain an animal that is jumping them from behind.


A small 6 month old puppy in someone's home where you are a guest?  Not in mine you don't.  If one is going to someone's home who has a puppy, they have to expect the puppy to have behaviour issues.  It is part of what makes them a puppy.  If one doesn't want to deal with the antics of a puppy, which is only trying to play, then they shouldn't go to someone's home with a puppy.  Puppies take a long time to train and there are age appropriate lessons for them. 


Being on the floor is an open invitation to the puppy.  He doesn't know any better.  If they don't want to be jumped by a puppy, then don't sit on the floor and bet your bottom dollar, don't restrain my dog as described in a previous post. 


Just as one doesn't discipline someone's child while visiting a home, no one but ME or my husband disciplines my dog.


ETA:  I saw the clarification above.  This above is in the case of someone restraining my dog in a dominant manner. 

« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 10:39:10 PM by sparksals »

sparksals

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Re: S/O unwanted pet discipline - guests vs. pets...
« Reply #47 on: January 05, 2014, 10:37:58 PM »
I would not expect someone to put their pet in another room, but I would absolutely expect that the animal be kept off of me.  I love animals, and I have pets, and I would never let a pet get on someone's lap without their express permission.  If your dog or cat gets on my lap or touches my face, and I do not want it there, it is going to get gently moved away.
This. So very much this.

I have a friend who has a new german shepherd puppy (Pup is ~6 months old currently). On one visit to their home, I was sitting on the floor next to my 4yo son, who was on a chair, to show him how to comfortably interact with a frisky puppy. (He was initially terrified, so this was Big Progress.) Pup came around and jumped on me from behind. I put her down on the ground. Friend said "Oh, she's allowed to do that."  ::) No. She is not allowed to jump on me. Not ever. Let her play dominance games with you. I get to choose whether I want to play that way.

Pup was better about jumping the last time I visited. Now she "wants to feel everything with her mouth." She doesn't bite, but I'm sure a whole lot of people who are not afraid of dogs find it disconcerting to have their hands engulfed by her mouth.

You can choose to not want a dog to don that but had you done that to my dog in my home you would be escorted out.  It is not your place to physically restrain someone else's dog especially in their home.

I read "put her down on the ground" as meaning that Marbles shifted the dog off her self and onto the floor, presumably gently. I think you might be reading it as if Marbles rolled the dog onto her back and held her down, in a 'showing dominance' type of way, which I agree would be wrong unless that's how you normally disciplined your dog and you'd explained how and when to do it. If you read it the way I did, though, and then read your comment, it sounds like you'd kick somebody out of your home for objecting even mildly to your dog leaping all over them, which I'm sure wasn't your intent. Clarifications needed all round, maybe? ;)


Yes, that is how I read it. 


I would kick someone out of my home if they did as I read it.  Shifting the dog off herself gently, with gently being the key word, is fine.

melicious

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Re: S/O unwanted pet discipline - guests vs. pets...
« Reply #48 on: January 05, 2014, 10:41:40 PM »
I would not expect someone to put their pet in another room, but I would absolutely expect that the animal be kept off of me.  I love animals, and I have pets, and I would never let a pet get on someone's lap without their express permission.  If your dog or cat gets on my lap or touches my face, and I do not want it there, it is going to get gently moved away.
This. So very much this.

I have a friend who has a new german shepherd puppy (Pup is ~6 months old currently). On one visit to their home, I was sitting on the floor next to my 4yo son, who was on a chair, to show him how to comfortably interact with a frisky puppy. (He was initially terrified, so this was Big Progress.) Pup came around and jumped on me from behind. I put her down on the ground. Friend said "Oh, she's allowed to do that."  ::) No. She is not allowed to jump on me. Not ever. Let her play dominance games with you. I get to choose whether I want to play that way.

Pup was better about jumping the last time I visited. Now she "wants to feel everything with her mouth." She doesn't bite, but I'm sure a whole lot of people who are not afraid of dogs find it disconcerting to have their hands engulfed by her mouth.

You can choose to not want a dog to don that but had you done that to my dog in my home you would be escorted out.  It is not your place to physically restrain someone else's dog especially in their home.

In someone's home or not, any person has the right to physically restrain an animal that is jumping them from behind.


A small 6 month old puppy in someone's home where you are a guest?  Not in mine you don't.  If one is going to someone's home who has a puppy, they have to expect the puppy to have behaviour issues.  It is part of what makes them a puppy.  If one doesn't want to deal with the antics of a puppy, which is only trying to play, then they shouldn't go to someone's home with a puppy.  Puppies take a long time to train and there are age appropriate lessons for them. 


Being on the floor is an open invitation to the puppy.  He doesn't know any better.  If they don't want to be jumped by a puppy, then don't sit on the floor and bet your bottom dollar, don't restrain my dog as described in a previous post. 


Just as one doesn't discipline someone's child while visiting a home, no one but ME or my husband disciplines my dog.


ETA:  I saw the clarification above.  This above is in the case of someone restraining my dog in a dominant manner.

Yes, but I don't think it's fair to say "My dog may jump on you - deal with it." I understand you don't want your dog to be disciplined/manhandled, but I think a guest in your home also has a right to their personal space being respected.

EllenS

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Re: S/O unwanted pet discipline - guests vs. pets...
« Reply #49 on: January 05, 2014, 10:46:41 PM »
I would not expect someone to put their pet in another room, but I would absolutely expect that the animal be kept off of me.  I love animals, and I have pets, and I would never let a pet get on someone's lap without their express permission.  If your dog or cat gets on my lap or touches my face, and I do not want it there, it is going to get gently moved away.
This. So very much this.

I have a friend who has a new german shepherd puppy (Pup is ~6 months old currently). On one visit to their home, I was sitting on the floor next to my 4yo son, who was on a chair, to show him how to comfortably interact with a frisky puppy. (He was initially terrified, so this was Big Progress.) Pup came around and jumped on me from behind. I put her down on the ground. Friend said "Oh, she's allowed to do that."  ::) No. She is not allowed to jump on me. Not ever. Let her play dominance games with you. I get to choose whether I want to play that way.

Pup was better about jumping the last time I visited. Now she "wants to feel everything with her mouth." She doesn't bite, but I'm sure a whole lot of people who are not afraid of dogs find it disconcerting to have their hands engulfed by her mouth.

You can choose to not want a dog to don that but had you done that to my dog in my home you would be escorted out.  It is not your place to physically restrain someone else's dog especially in their home.

In someone's home or not, any person has the right to physically restrain an animal that is jumping them from behind.


A small 6 month old puppy in someone's home where you are a guest?  Not in mine you don't.  If one is going to someone's home who has a puppy, they have to expect the puppy to have behaviour issues.  It is part of what makes them a puppy.  If one doesn't want to deal with the antics of a puppy, which is only trying to play, then they shouldn't go to someone's home with a puppy.  Puppies take a long time to train and there are age appropriate lessons for them. 


Being on the floor is an open invitation to the puppy.  He doesn't know any better.  If they don't want to be jumped by a puppy, then don't sit on the floor and bet your bottom dollar, don't restrain my dog as described in a previous post. 


Just as one doesn't discipline someone's child while visiting a home, no one but ME or my husband disciplines my dog.


ETA:  I saw the clarification above.  This above is in the case of someone restraining my dog in a dominant manner.

I see that we are all in agreement that gently is key. However, to the above, there was a thread not long ago about a visitor to someone's home who was being whacked repeatedly by a small child with a stick, and I along with others wondered why she was waiting for the parents to step in?  Nobody was advocating that she should whack the child back, but by the same token nobody expected that she should just sit there and take it.

I have 2 small kids myself and I assure you if they hit, bit or peed on someone I would not expect that person to meekly sit there and wait for me to notice and intervene. 

greencat

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Re: S/O unwanted pet discipline - guests vs. pets...
« Reply #50 on: January 06, 2014, 12:49:26 AM »
One of my cats is incredibly social to other humans.  She requires a certain amount of warning to people who are taken with her fluffy cuteness and her eagerness to be their friend.  She is inclined to sink her claws into people - to be clear, she is not maliciously attacking people, just trying to cling, because she really wants to be picked up and she does not want to be put down!

gollymolly2

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Re: S/O unwanted pet discipline - guests vs. pets...
« Reply #51 on: January 06, 2014, 12:57:27 AM »
I think hosts have a responsibility to be welcoming and kind to guests, and guests have a responsibility to be understanding and kind to their hosts.  And this applies to interactions with pets.

If you are a guest and the host has a rambunctious animal, you should do your best to be patient and not act like the animal should have the exact same manners as a rational polite adult human.

And if you are a host, you should keep in mind that many people - even animal lovers - don't want a strange animal jumping on them / licking them /climbing on them. You should do your best to train your animal and to keep an eye on it while guests are there to see if it's being too rambunctious.

If an animal is repeatedly jumping on me or climbing on me - and I looove pets - at a point I'm going to be (gently but firmly) pushing an animal away if the host is not doing a good job intervening. And I don't think there's anything rude or inappropriate about that.

gollymolly2

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Re: S/O unwanted pet discipline - guests vs. pets...
« Reply #52 on: January 06, 2014, 01:00:51 AM »
One of my cats is incredibly social to other humans.  She requires a certain amount of warning to people who are taken with her fluffy cuteness and her eagerness to be their friend.  She is inclined to sink her claws into people - to be clear, she is not maliciously attacking people, just trying to cling, because she really wants to be picked up and she does not want to be put down!

I may very well be misunderstanding, but this seems to me a clear case of you needing to be a super attentive host. Because I totally understand that your cat is well-intentioned. She's a cat, she doesn't understand human interaction. But you're a human, and you understand human interaction and feelings, so you know very well that few humans will appreciate having claws sunk into their skin. So if you're going to host people, you should be really careful to keep your claw-happy cat away from your guests.

melicious

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Re: S/O unwanted pet discipline - guests vs. pets...
« Reply #53 on: January 06, 2014, 01:04:45 AM »
I think hosts have a responsibility to be welcoming and kind to guests, and guests have a responsibility to be understanding and kind to their hosts.  And this applies to interactions with pets.

If you are a guest and the host has a rambunctious animal, you should do your best to be patient and not act like the animal should have the exact same manners as a rational polite adult human.

And if you are a host, you should keep in mind that many people - even animal lovers - don't want a strange animal jumping on them / licking them /climbing on them. You should do your best to train your animal and to keep an eye on it while guests are there to see if it's being too rambunctious.

If an animal is repeatedly jumping on me or climbing on me - and I looove pets - at a point I'm going to be (gently but firmly) pushing an animal away if the host is not doing a good job intervening. And I don't think there's anything rude or inappropriate about that.

Co-sign!

Millionaire Maria

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Re: S/O unwanted pet discipline - guests vs. pets...
« Reply #54 on: January 06, 2014, 01:19:01 AM »
I think hosts have a responsibility to be welcoming and kind to guests, and guests have a responsibility to be understanding and kind to their hosts.  And this applies to interactions with pets.

If you are a guest and the host has a rambunctious animal, you should do your best to be patient and not act like the animal should have the exact same manners as a rational polite adult human.

And if you are a host, you should keep in mind that many people - even animal lovers - don't want a strange animal jumping on them / licking them /climbing on them. You should do your best to train your animal and to keep an eye on it while guests are there to see if it's being too rambunctious.

If an animal is repeatedly jumping on me or climbing on me - and I looove pets - at a point I'm going to be (gently but firmly) pushing an animal away if the host is not doing a good job intervening. And I don't think there's anything rude or inappropriate about that.

I totally agree! I think that as per etiquette, it's generally rude to discipline other people's pets, but it is equally, if not more so, rude to put your guests in a position in which they have to choose between their autonomy and correcting your pet. If you don't want people to discipline your pets, don't put them in the position of having to do so.
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CakeEater

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Re: S/O unwanted pet discipline - guests vs. pets...
« Reply #55 on: January 06, 2014, 01:56:36 AM »
I think hosts have a responsibility to be welcoming and kind to guests, and guests have a responsibility to be understanding and kind to their hosts.  And this applies to interactions with pets.

If you are a guest and the host has a rambunctious animal, you should do your best to be patient and not act like the animal should have the exact same manners as a rational polite adult human.

And if you are a host, you should keep in mind that many people - even animal lovers - don't want a strange animal jumping on them / licking them /climbing on them. You should do your best to train your animal and to keep an eye on it while guests are there to see if it's being too rambunctious.

If an animal is repeatedly jumping on me or climbing on me - and I looove pets - at a point I'm going to be (gently but firmly) pushing an animal away if the host is not doing a good job intervening. And I don't think there's anything rude or inappropriate about that.

I totally agree! I think that as per etiquette, it's generally rude to discipline other people's pets, but it is equally, if not more so, rude to put your guests in a position in which they have to choose between their autonomy and correcting your pet. If you don't want people to discipline your pets, don't put them in the position of having to do so.

I agree. I like animals fine, but I don't want pets on me at all. And often if I'm visiting, I'll be in good clothes and won't want dog/cat hair, saliva etc on me, even on my hands as I gently scoop up a pet and put it on the floor.




Millionaire Maria

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Re: S/O unwanted pet discipline - guests vs. pets...
« Reply #56 on: January 06, 2014, 01:58:48 AM »
I think hosts have a responsibility to be welcoming and kind to guests, and guests have a responsibility to be understanding and kind to their hosts.  And this applies to interactions with pets.

If you are a guest and the host has a rambunctious animal, you should do your best to be patient and not act like the animal should have the exact same manners as a rational polite adult human.

And if you are a host, you should keep in mind that many people - even animal lovers - don't want a strange animal jumping on them / licking them /climbing on them. You should do your best to train your animal and to keep an eye on it while guests are there to see if it's being too rambunctious.

If an animal is repeatedly jumping on me or climbing on me - and I looove pets - at a point I'm going to be (gently but firmly) pushing an animal away if the host is not doing a good job intervening. And I don't think there's anything rude or inappropriate about that.

I totally agree! I think that as per etiquette, it's generally rude to discipline other people's pets, but it is equally, if not more so, rude to put your guests in a position in which they have to choose between their autonomy and correcting your pet. If you don't want people to discipline your pets, don't put them in the position of having to do so.

I agree. I like animals fine, but I don't want pets on me at all. And often if I'm visiting, I'll be in good clothes and won't want dog/cat hair, saliva etc on me, even on my hands as I gently scoop up a pet and put it on the floor.

Not to mention what well meaning and affectionate pets can do to pantyhose!
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greencat

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Re: S/O unwanted pet discipline - guests vs. pets...
« Reply #57 on: January 06, 2014, 03:49:33 AM »
One of my cats is incredibly social to other humans.  She requires a certain amount of warning to people who are taken with her fluffy cuteness and her eagerness to be their friend.  She is inclined to sink her claws into people - to be clear, she is not maliciously attacking people, just trying to cling, because she really wants to be picked up and she does not want to be put down!

I may very well be misunderstanding, but this seems to me a clear case of you needing to be a super attentive host. Because I totally understand that your cat is well-intentioned. She's a cat, she doesn't understand human interaction. But you're a human, and you understand human interaction and feelings, so you know very well that few humans will appreciate having claws sunk into their skin. So if you're going to host people, you should be really careful to keep your claw-happy cat away from your guests.

I frequently hold her myself to appease her need for attention without risking my guests' skin.  The problem really comes when people pick her up, and some of them insist on picking her up despite the warnings - and I very clearly explain to people that if she is picked up, she will latch on to their shoulder with all ten front claws, and it will hurt.  At that point it's like telling people "don't touch the stove, it's hot!" and having them put their hand on the stove.

Margo

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Re: S/O unwanted pet discipline - guests vs. pets...
« Reply #58 on: January 06, 2014, 05:43:23 AM »
I think that as a host you have an obligation to make sure that you are aware of how your pets are behaving and whether the guests are OK with it. In the case of dogs being allowed on the couch, for instance, I think that it would be sensible to tell your guest that. Lots of people don't allow dogs on the furniture.
Even if your guest is fine with having a dog on the couch with them, it's useful for them to know whether it is OK for them to encourage or allow this. Plus, if you tell them up front that the dog is allowed on the couch it gives them the option to sit on a chair instead, if they would prefer not to have the dog sitting on on near them.

I think also it's important to remember that not everyone who visits your home will be as comfortable with your pets as you are, or as familiar with what is or isn't appropriate in terms of addressing any behaviour - and that someone who is not very comfortable with that type of animal is much more likely to 'overreact' (e.g. swiping a cat which has 'attacked' them, even if they were startled rather than hurt).

Because of this, I do think that the onus is on the pet owner to be very clear  and to be very alert. As a guest, it can be very awkward to say "Your cat/dog is bothering me" 

I like dogs that I know - I would not be comfortable with even a small dog which I wasn't familiar with sitting on the couch next to me - if your (generic you) dog is allowed on he couch and you would not want me to put him gently on the floor if he jumps up by me, then you need to tell me that before I sit down, so I can sit somewhere else.

When I had my cat I would warn people that the right hand end of the sofa was 'his' seat - he preferred it if I sat there and he sat on me, but if you sat there, it was very likely that he would come and stand on or next to you, complaining that you weren't me. If that was not something he guest was comfortable with they can sit elsewhere. If I didn't warn hem, I would not then think it unreasonable if someone reacted badly to having him jump on them or shout in their ear - it's my fault , for not warning them, not theirs for reacting.

MamaMootz

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Re: S/O unwanted pet discipline - guests vs. pets...
« Reply #59 on: January 06, 2014, 07:14:49 AM »
I think as a host you have an obligation to warn guests of pet's behaviors and to keep your pets away, if the guest is uncomfortable with the pet.

I once stayed at a friend's home who had a 160 pound great dane. The great dane was not trained, and we had pizza for dinner. The dog came over to me and took the pizza right off my plate. I wasn't about to get into a tussle with a 160 pound dog, and friend just laughed and said great dane did that all the time.

I didn't eat anything there after that, and left early. Big dogs make me uncomfortable. Untrained big dogs scare the crap out of me.
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