Author Topic: S/O unwanted pet discipline - guests vs. pets...  (Read 7945 times)

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melicious

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Re: S/O unwanted pet discipline - guests vs. pets...
« Reply #45 on: January 05, 2014, 10:41:40 PM »
I would not expect someone to put their pet in another room, but I would absolutely expect that the animal be kept off of me.  I love animals, and I have pets, and I would never let a pet get on someone's lap without their express permission.  If your dog or cat gets on my lap or touches my face, and I do not want it there, it is going to get gently moved away.
This. So very much this.

I have a friend who has a new german shepherd puppy (Pup is ~6 months old currently). On one visit to their home, I was sitting on the floor next to my 4yo son, who was on a chair, to show him how to comfortably interact with a frisky puppy. (He was initially terrified, so this was Big Progress.) Pup came around and jumped on me from behind. I put her down on the ground. Friend said "Oh, she's allowed to do that."  ::) No. She is not allowed to jump on me. Not ever. Let her play dominance games with you. I get to choose whether I want to play that way.

Pup was better about jumping the last time I visited. Now she "wants to feel everything with her mouth." She doesn't bite, but I'm sure a whole lot of people who are not afraid of dogs find it disconcerting to have their hands engulfed by her mouth.

You can choose to not want a dog to don that but had you done that to my dog in my home you would be escorted out.  It is not your place to physically restrain someone else's dog especially in their home.

In someone's home or not, any person has the right to physically restrain an animal that is jumping them from behind.


A small 6 month old puppy in someone's home where you are a guest?  Not in mine you don't.  If one is going to someone's home who has a puppy, they have to expect the puppy to have behaviour issues.  It is part of what makes them a puppy.  If one doesn't want to deal with the antics of a puppy, which is only trying to play, then they shouldn't go to someone's home with a puppy.  Puppies take a long time to train and there are age appropriate lessons for them. 


Being on the floor is an open invitation to the puppy.  He doesn't know any better.  If they don't want to be jumped by a puppy, then don't sit on the floor and bet your bottom dollar, don't restrain my dog as described in a previous post. 


Just as one doesn't discipline someone's child while visiting a home, no one but ME or my husband disciplines my dog.


ETA:  I saw the clarification above.  This above is in the case of someone restraining my dog in a dominant manner.

Yes, but I don't think it's fair to say "My dog may jump on you - deal with it." I understand you don't want your dog to be disciplined/manhandled, but I think a guest in your home also has a right to their personal space being respected.

EllenS

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Re: S/O unwanted pet discipline - guests vs. pets...
« Reply #46 on: January 05, 2014, 10:46:41 PM »
I would not expect someone to put their pet in another room, but I would absolutely expect that the animal be kept off of me.  I love animals, and I have pets, and I would never let a pet get on someone's lap without their express permission.  If your dog or cat gets on my lap or touches my face, and I do not want it there, it is going to get gently moved away.
This. So very much this.

I have a friend who has a new german shepherd puppy (Pup is ~6 months old currently). On one visit to their home, I was sitting on the floor next to my 4yo son, who was on a chair, to show him how to comfortably interact with a frisky puppy. (He was initially terrified, so this was Big Progress.) Pup came around and jumped on me from behind. I put her down on the ground. Friend said "Oh, she's allowed to do that."  ::) No. She is not allowed to jump on me. Not ever. Let her play dominance games with you. I get to choose whether I want to play that way.

Pup was better about jumping the last time I visited. Now she "wants to feel everything with her mouth." She doesn't bite, but I'm sure a whole lot of people who are not afraid of dogs find it disconcerting to have their hands engulfed by her mouth.

You can choose to not want a dog to don that but had you done that to my dog in my home you would be escorted out.  It is not your place to physically restrain someone else's dog especially in their home.

In someone's home or not, any person has the right to physically restrain an animal that is jumping them from behind.


A small 6 month old puppy in someone's home where you are a guest?  Not in mine you don't.  If one is going to someone's home who has a puppy, they have to expect the puppy to have behaviour issues.  It is part of what makes them a puppy.  If one doesn't want to deal with the antics of a puppy, which is only trying to play, then they shouldn't go to someone's home with a puppy.  Puppies take a long time to train and there are age appropriate lessons for them. 


Being on the floor is an open invitation to the puppy.  He doesn't know any better.  If they don't want to be jumped by a puppy, then don't sit on the floor and bet your bottom dollar, don't restrain my dog as described in a previous post. 


Just as one doesn't discipline someone's child while visiting a home, no one but ME or my husband disciplines my dog.


ETA:  I saw the clarification above.  This above is in the case of someone restraining my dog in a dominant manner.

I see that we are all in agreement that gently is key. However, to the above, there was a thread not long ago about a visitor to someone's home who was being whacked repeatedly by a small child with a stick, and I along with others wondered why she was waiting for the parents to step in?  Nobody was advocating that she should whack the child back, but by the same token nobody expected that she should just sit there and take it.

I have 2 small kids myself and I assure you if they hit, bit or peed on someone I would not expect that person to meekly sit there and wait for me to notice and intervene. 

greencat

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Re: S/O unwanted pet discipline - guests vs. pets...
« Reply #47 on: January 06, 2014, 12:49:26 AM »
One of my cats is incredibly social to other humans.  She requires a certain amount of warning to people who are taken with her fluffy cuteness and her eagerness to be their friend.  She is inclined to sink her claws into people - to be clear, she is not maliciously attacking people, just trying to cling, because she really wants to be picked up and she does not want to be put down!

gollymolly2

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Re: S/O unwanted pet discipline - guests vs. pets...
« Reply #48 on: January 06, 2014, 12:57:27 AM »
I think hosts have a responsibility to be welcoming and kind to guests, and guests have a responsibility to be understanding and kind to their hosts.  And this applies to interactions with pets.

If you are a guest and the host has a rambunctious animal, you should do your best to be patient and not act like the animal should have the exact same manners as a rational polite adult human.

And if you are a host, you should keep in mind that many people - even animal lovers - don't want a strange animal jumping on them / licking them /climbing on them. You should do your best to train your animal and to keep an eye on it while guests are there to see if it's being too rambunctious.

If an animal is repeatedly jumping on me or climbing on me - and I looove pets - at a point I'm going to be (gently but firmly) pushing an animal away if the host is not doing a good job intervening. And I don't think there's anything rude or inappropriate about that.

gollymolly2

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Re: S/O unwanted pet discipline - guests vs. pets...
« Reply #49 on: January 06, 2014, 01:00:51 AM »
One of my cats is incredibly social to other humans.  She requires a certain amount of warning to people who are taken with her fluffy cuteness and her eagerness to be their friend.  She is inclined to sink her claws into people - to be clear, she is not maliciously attacking people, just trying to cling, because she really wants to be picked up and she does not want to be put down!

I may very well be misunderstanding, but this seems to me a clear case of you needing to be a super attentive host. Because I totally understand that your cat is well-intentioned. She's a cat, she doesn't understand human interaction. But you're a human, and you understand human interaction and feelings, so you know very well that few humans will appreciate having claws sunk into their skin. So if you're going to host people, you should be really careful to keep your claw-happy cat away from your guests.

melicious

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Re: S/O unwanted pet discipline - guests vs. pets...
« Reply #50 on: January 06, 2014, 01:04:45 AM »
I think hosts have a responsibility to be welcoming and kind to guests, and guests have a responsibility to be understanding and kind to their hosts.  And this applies to interactions with pets.

If you are a guest and the host has a rambunctious animal, you should do your best to be patient and not act like the animal should have the exact same manners as a rational polite adult human.

And if you are a host, you should keep in mind that many people - even animal lovers - don't want a strange animal jumping on them / licking them /climbing on them. You should do your best to train your animal and to keep an eye on it while guests are there to see if it's being too rambunctious.

If an animal is repeatedly jumping on me or climbing on me - and I looove pets - at a point I'm going to be (gently but firmly) pushing an animal away if the host is not doing a good job intervening. And I don't think there's anything rude or inappropriate about that.

Co-sign!

CakeEater

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Re: S/O unwanted pet discipline - guests vs. pets...
« Reply #51 on: January 06, 2014, 01:56:36 AM »
I think hosts have a responsibility to be welcoming and kind to guests, and guests have a responsibility to be understanding and kind to their hosts.  And this applies to interactions with pets.

If you are a guest and the host has a rambunctious animal, you should do your best to be patient and not act like the animal should have the exact same manners as a rational polite adult human.

And if you are a host, you should keep in mind that many people - even animal lovers - don't want a strange animal jumping on them / licking them /climbing on them. You should do your best to train your animal and to keep an eye on it while guests are there to see if it's being too rambunctious.

If an animal is repeatedly jumping on me or climbing on me - and I looove pets - at a point I'm going to be (gently but firmly) pushing an animal away if the host is not doing a good job intervening. And I don't think there's anything rude or inappropriate about that.

I totally agree! I think that as per etiquette, it's generally rude to discipline other people's pets, but it is equally, if not more so, rude to put your guests in a position in which they have to choose between their autonomy and correcting your pet. If you don't want people to discipline your pets, don't put them in the position of having to do so.

I agree. I like animals fine, but I don't want pets on me at all. And often if I'm visiting, I'll be in good clothes and won't want dog/cat hair, saliva etc on me, even on my hands as I gently scoop up a pet and put it on the floor.




greencat

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Re: S/O unwanted pet discipline - guests vs. pets...
« Reply #52 on: January 06, 2014, 03:49:33 AM »
One of my cats is incredibly social to other humans.  She requires a certain amount of warning to people who are taken with her fluffy cuteness and her eagerness to be their friend.  She is inclined to sink her claws into people - to be clear, she is not maliciously attacking people, just trying to cling, because she really wants to be picked up and she does not want to be put down!

I may very well be misunderstanding, but this seems to me a clear case of you needing to be a super attentive host. Because I totally understand that your cat is well-intentioned. She's a cat, she doesn't understand human interaction. But you're a human, and you understand human interaction and feelings, so you know very well that few humans will appreciate having claws sunk into their skin. So if you're going to host people, you should be really careful to keep your claw-happy cat away from your guests.

I frequently hold her myself to appease her need for attention without risking my guests' skin.  The problem really comes when people pick her up, and some of them insist on picking her up despite the warnings - and I very clearly explain to people that if she is picked up, she will latch on to their shoulder with all ten front claws, and it will hurt.  At that point it's like telling people "don't touch the stove, it's hot!" and having them put their hand on the stove.

Margo

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Re: S/O unwanted pet discipline - guests vs. pets...
« Reply #53 on: January 06, 2014, 05:43:23 AM »
I think that as a host you have an obligation to make sure that you are aware of how your pets are behaving and whether the guests are OK with it. In the case of dogs being allowed on the couch, for instance, I think that it would be sensible to tell your guest that. Lots of people don't allow dogs on the furniture.
Even if your guest is fine with having a dog on the couch with them, it's useful for them to know whether it is OK for them to encourage or allow this. Plus, if you tell them up front that the dog is allowed on the couch it gives them the option to sit on a chair instead, if they would prefer not to have the dog sitting on on near them.

I think also it's important to remember that not everyone who visits your home will be as comfortable with your pets as you are, or as familiar with what is or isn't appropriate in terms of addressing any behaviour - and that someone who is not very comfortable with that type of animal is much more likely to 'overreact' (e.g. swiping a cat which has 'attacked' them, even if they were startled rather than hurt).

Because of this, I do think that the onus is on the pet owner to be very clear  and to be very alert. As a guest, it can be very awkward to say "Your cat/dog is bothering me" 

I like dogs that I know - I would not be comfortable with even a small dog which I wasn't familiar with sitting on the couch next to me - if your (generic you) dog is allowed on he couch and you would not want me to put him gently on the floor if he jumps up by me, then you need to tell me that before I sit down, so I can sit somewhere else.

When I had my cat I would warn people that the right hand end of the sofa was 'his' seat - he preferred it if I sat there and he sat on me, but if you sat there, it was very likely that he would come and stand on or next to you, complaining that you weren't me. If that was not something he guest was comfortable with they can sit elsewhere. If I didn't warn hem, I would not then think it unreasonable if someone reacted badly to having him jump on them or shout in their ear - it's my fault , for not warning them, not theirs for reacting.

MamaMootz

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Re: S/O unwanted pet discipline - guests vs. pets...
« Reply #54 on: January 06, 2014, 07:14:49 AM »
I think as a host you have an obligation to warn guests of pet's behaviors and to keep your pets away, if the guest is uncomfortable with the pet.

I once stayed at a friend's home who had a 160 pound great dane. The great dane was not trained, and we had pizza for dinner. The dog came over to me and took the pizza right off my plate. I wasn't about to get into a tussle with a 160 pound dog, and friend just laughed and said great dane did that all the time.

I didn't eat anything there after that, and left early. Big dogs make me uncomfortable. Untrained big dogs scare the crap out of me.
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Another Sarah

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Re: S/O unwanted pet discipline - guests vs. pets...
« Reply #55 on: January 06, 2014, 07:56:19 AM »
I think hosts have a responsibility to be welcoming and kind to guests, and guests have a responsibility to be understanding and kind to their hosts.  And this applies to interactions with pets.

If you are a guest and the host has a rambunctious animal, you should do your best to be patient and not act like the animal should have the exact same manners as a rational polite adult human.

And if you are a host, you should keep in mind that many people - even animal lovers - don't want a strange animal jumping on them / licking them /climbing on them. You should do your best to train your animal and to keep an eye on it while guests are there to see if it's being too rambunctious.

If an animal is repeatedly jumping on me or climbing on me - and I looove pets - at a point I'm going to be (gently but firmly) pushing an animal away if the host is not doing a good job intervening. And I don't think there's anything rude or inappropriate about that.

This. So much this.

Also with a couple of the posts I've noticed people are describing the bad reactions of people that just aren't pet people. I think it's unreasonable as a host to expect that guests know what to do with a pet that's paying them attention, so it's my responsibility to prevent the situation.

Example - I had a cat that loved sitting on my shoulders like a living scarf. Beautiful girl was totally affectionate, not a bad bone in her body - but if she clawed her way up a human ladder to sit on her favourite perch, then an unsuspecting person might object to the track of claw holes in their clothes and skin.
So I warned people that if they picked her up she might do that and gave them the hand signal that stopped her doing it. I never had a problem. But if I hadn't and someone had panicked, it would be my fault, not theirs.

same with the nose-tapping thing. A non pet person trying to fend off a nosy cat had their hand grabbed, probably panicked expecting clawing and reacted badly. That's not their fault.
They were clearly uncomfortable with the animal around and pet owner should have given some help/instruction "if she's bothering you, click your fingers and point at the floor, she'll jump down"

Mel the Redcap

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Re: S/O unwanted pet discipline - guests vs. pets...
« Reply #56 on: January 06, 2014, 10:59:57 AM »
It took me a while to remember this because it's been a long time, but I once owned a cat who was not good with visitors, and I needed to be proactive about avoiding trouble.

First of all, let me just say that I named her Shredder and it was very appropriate. :P She loved me - heck, she adored me - but in her (occasionally worryingly intelligent) cat mind, anyone who took up my time and attention was her enemy. When I had visitors, I had to introduce them to her and tell her to "Be nice!", because if I did she would just sit in the corner of the room, pointedly facing away with her ears back and tail swishing. If I didn't, she would wait until nobody was looking, sneak up on them under cover of the furniture, and bite them in the foot. HARD. I'm not kidding.

Luckily for her, everybody she ever did that to was a cat person; there was some yelping, but no deliberate attempts to hit her and no accidental kicks either. She got smacked (by me) and shut out of the room (a fate worse than death in her opinion), and if she'd been kicked when someone jumped I would have been horrified, but I would have blamed myself (and my horribly behaved possessive cat) for not preventing it, because it was my job to take her peculiarities into account and stop her from assaulting my friends.

(The time she bit a persistent door-to-door salesman, though, I confess that I patted her and gave her a treat afterwards. He totally had it coming. >:D)
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EllenS

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Re: S/O unwanted pet discipline - guests vs. pets...
« Reply #57 on: January 06, 2014, 11:15:37 AM »
I think many cat owners, in particular accept signs of "affection" that non-cat-owners would classify as "violence". Do cats routinely draw blood on each other as a sign of affection?  (outside of mating)?

I think it is unreasonable for a pet owner to expect visitors to accept pain and bleeding as a sign of affection, and laugh it off, just as it is unreasonble to expect vistors to accept having their food stolen by large dogs. Those responsible pet owners who have special signals to the pet (that actually work) to prevent clawing, etc, do well to discuss this well in advance.

Personally, I think a pet that is prone to draw blood while being "affectionate", should be disclosed before the invitation is accepted.

Hmmmmm

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Re: S/O unwanted pet discipline - guests vs. pets...
« Reply #58 on: January 06, 2014, 11:22:26 AM »
If one of my pets bothers a guest, I will of course control them.  I also have no objection to anyone telling my dogs (firmly but without screaming or yelling or hitting) to get off, or to shoo them off the couch.  If one of my cats hops into a guest's lap and they are not interested in having a lap-cat, I have no problem with them just lifting the cat down and putting them back on the floor.  There's no need to be rough or for hitting, though a guest may find themselves relocating the same cat from their lap a couple times until kitty gets the message.

I will move a cat from a chair so a person can sit there, or shoo a dog off the couch. In the case of the OP with the room mate's dog, I wouldn't have seen any problem with the guest simply picking the dog up and putting him back down on the floor or beside them on the couch rather than in their lap or in their face.

I have two extremely social cats who also believe that every guest wants to pet them. As the host it is my responsibility to notice if someone is trying to keep the cats off of them and engaged after the first removal from their lap. I do not expect my guests to have to continually pick up the cats and move them off of them. Someone moves one of the cats off of them I know I need to redirect the cat to a different activity.

Just like with a child. Someone has enjoyed interacting with my child for 5 minutes but is now getting tired. I shouldn't expect my guest to redirect my child after the first indication.

Dorrie78

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Re: S/O unwanted pet discipline - guests vs. pets...
« Reply #59 on: January 06, 2014, 11:39:33 AM »
I definitely think there are (or should be) limits. Quite frankly, letting your cat touch a guest and then getting outraged over a tap on the nose astounds me.

I think that if your pet is getting in someone's space you need to check and see if they are comfortable. Don't assume they want your pet on them. If they are uncomfortable, take reasonable measures to make the guest/human comfortable.  Call the pet over by you. Now, you don't have to lock them out in the cold or cage them up but you should take reasonable measures.
If someone were to tap my cat on the noise because she touched him or her, the guest would be escorted immediately out. My cat is affectionate and loves to rub ankles as she walks by. She's showing kindness in her way. She likes to curl up next to someone on the couch. If that is unwelcome, gently remove her. She also sniffs people. This isn't an aggressive or forbidden behavior. Punishing her affection with a tap on the nose (as mother cats do to naughty kittens) would leave her confused and me pissed.

If she bites you (unprovoked), that is different. Very unlikely with my genial and elderly cat, but I would immediately remove her from the situation.

I'm assuming I know which post from the other thread this is referring to.   The cat was on the back of the couch at face level and when the person tried to shoo the cat the cat saw "play" and grabbed the persons hand. *I'm going to presume that the person was trying to discourage the cat.   It happened fast ( too fast to intercede) and we have the pet owners interpretation but even as the pet owner described I'd fault the pet owner(not for letting it happen but for faulting the person) , people who are slightly uncomfortable around animals may not know how to effectively discourage an animal. IT sounded like an inter-species misunderstanding.
Where in the post to which I responded is there any mention of this? I understand that sometimes people may be referring to another thread, especially in a s/o thread such as this, but that is not clear in this post. The poster only says that if a cat "touches" someone, it is okay to discipline the cat and to disagree with that opinion is "astounding." I was replying to say that my cat can touch people in many ways, the vast majority of which are signs of affection from the cat and to discipline my cat for showing affection would be completely unacceptable. In my personal situation with my specific cat, she would never scratch or draw blood in any of her displays of affection and she doesn't play that way either (as she is 14 and ill and doesn't really play at all anymore).