S/O unwanted pet discipline - guests vs. pets...

[spookycatlady]

My beloved and departed male cat liked to stand on people's laps.  He never curled up, never did the push-push, never gave head bonks, or sniffed/licked.  He just stood there, like he climbed Mount Everest.  The strangest sight was seeing my non-pet loving mother-in-law being conquered by Clyde.  She didn't want to move him because she was sitting in his regular spot, but she was really really uncomfortable (he was the size of a small mountain lion).

I clapped and he let her be after that.  That was the closest I've come to the topic at hand.  Actually, with Clyde, if she had tried to pet him, he would have run off on is own.

In theory, gentle discouragement of a guest being made uncomfortable would be totally okay with me, but anything resembling corporal punishment would be an Oh. Heck. No.   

I'm going to give scritches to Nubbin the Dog when I get home today for never jumping, never schnorfling sensitive bits, and being an all-around perfect dog.  Best 90 lbs of cuddle you will ever meet.  But only if you want him too.

 

[Sharnita]

Dorrie78, I am not really sure how you can disagree that I am astounded by something.

[Another Sarah]

I definitely think there are (or should be) limits. Quite frankly, letting your cat touch a guest and then getting outraged over a tap on the nose astounds me.

I think that if your pet is getting in someone's space you need to check and see if they are comfortable. Don't assume they want your pet on them. If they are uncomfortable, take reasonable measures to make the guest/human comfortable.  Call the pet over by you. Now, you don't have to lock them out in the cold or cage them up but you should take reasonable measures.

If someone were to tap my cat on the noise because she touched him or her, the guest would be escorted immediately out. My cat is affectionate and loves to rub ankles as she walks by. She's showing kindness in her way. She likes to curl up next to someone on the couch. If that is unwelcome, gently remove her. She also sniffs people. This isn't an aggressive or forbidden behavior. Punishing her affection with a tap on the nose (as mother cats do to naughty kittens) would leave her confused and me pissed.

If she bites you (unprovoked), that is different. Very unlikely with my genial and elderly cat, but I would immediately remove her from the situation.

I'm assuming I know which post from the other thread this is referring to.   The cat was on the back of the couch at face level and when the person tried to shoo the cat the cat saw "play" and grabbed the persons hand. *I'm going to presume that the person was trying to discourage the cat.   It happened fast ( too fast to intercede) and we have the pet owners interpretation but even as the pet owner described I'd fault the pet owner(not for letting it happen but for faulting the person) , people who are slightly uncomfortable around animals may not know how to effectively discourage an animal. IT sounded like an inter-species misunderstanding.

Where in the post to which I responded is there any mention of this? I understand that sometimes people may be referring to another thread, especially in a s/o thread such as this, but that is not clear in this post. The poster only says that if a cat "touches" someone, it is okay to discipline the cat and to disagree with that opinion is "astounding." I was replying to say that my cat can touch people in many ways, the vast majority of which are signs of affection from the cat and to discipline my cat for showing affection would be completely unacceptable. In my personal situation with my specific cat, she would never scratch or draw blood in any of her displays of affection and she doesn't play that way either (as she is 14 and ill and doesn't really play at all anymore).

I think most people are assuming it relates to a post in the other thread

"One of my friends tapped my cat on the nose once. She climbed up onto the back of the couch and was sniffing his head. I didn't know he didn't like cats. I thought it was cute that she was trying to smooch him. Anyway he kept shaking his hand in front of her which made her try and play so she grabbed his hand with her paws. He tapped her on the nose and said "No!"

I was horrified. I said "don't hit her" and I got up, grabbed kitty, gave her a cuddle and put her on the couch next to me. He left after that and has not been back."

I feel for the poster in that situation because he reacted badly, but I do think it was that- a bad reaction, and I think she was assuming a level of feline-handling competence that he didn't have.

[Dorrie78]

Dorrie78, I am not really sure how you can disagree that I am astounded by something.

Fair enough. But I also think that you will find most cat owners would be very unhappy that you hit their cats just when they touch you.

As you said in the original post to which I was replying:
"I definitely think there are (or should be) limits. Quite frankly, letting your cat touch a guest and then getting outraged over a tap on the nose astounds me."

[Sharnita]

A tap on the nose is, to me, literally a tap on the nose. Not hitting anyone or anything.

[shhh its me]

I definitely think there are (or should be) limits. Quite frankly, letting your cat touch a guest and then getting outraged over a tap on the nose astounds me.

I think that if your pet is getting in someone's space you need to check and see if they are comfortable. Don't assume they want your pet on them. If they are uncomfortable, take reasonable measures to make the guest/human comfortable.  Call the pet over by you. Now, you don't have to lock them out in the cold or cage them up but you should take reasonable measures.

If someone were to tap my cat on the noise because she touched him or her, the guest would be escorted immediately out. My cat is affectionate and loves to rub ankles as she walks by. She's showing kindness in her way. She likes to curl up next to someone on the couch. If that is unwelcome, gently remove her. She also sniffs people. This isn't an aggressive or forbidden behavior. Punishing her affection with a tap on the nose (as mother cats do to naughty kittens) would leave her confused and me pissed.

If she bites you (unprovoked), that is different. Very unlikely with my genial and elderly cat, but I would immediately remove her from the situation.

I'm assuming I know which post from the other thread this is referring to.   The cat was on the back of the couch at face level and when the person tried to shoo the cat the cat saw "play" and grabbed the persons hand. *I'm going to presume that the person was trying to discourage the cat.   It happened fast ( too fast to intercede) and we have the pet owners interpretation but even as the pet owner described I'd fault the pet owner(not for letting it happen but for faulting the person) , people who are slightly uncomfortable around animals may not know how to effectively discourage an animal. IT sounded like an inter-species misunderstanding.

Where in the post to which I responded is there any mention of this? I understand that sometimes people may be referring to another thread, especially in a s/o thread such as this, but that is not clear in this post. The poster only says that if a cat "touches" someone, it is okay to discipline the cat and to disagree with that opinion is "astounding." I was replying to say that my cat can touch people in many ways, the vast majority of which are signs of affection from the cat and to discipline my cat for showing affection would be completely unacceptable. In my personal situation with my specific cat, she would never scratch or draw blood in any of her displays of affection and she doesn't play that way either (as she is 14 and ill and doesn't really play at all anymore).

"One of my friends tapped my cat on the nose once. She climbed up onto the back of the couch and was sniffing his head. I didn't know he didn't like cats. I thought it was cute that she was trying to smooch him. Anyway he kept shaking his hand in front of her which made her try and play so she grabbed his hand with her paws. He tapped her on the nose and said "No!"

I was horrified. I said "don't hit her" and I got up, grabbed kitty, gave her a cuddle and put her on the couch next to me. He left after that and has not been back.

I realize that you were replying in context and made perfect sense but I think that this was the poster was referring to and that she was picturing this type of interaction not just a sniff at pant legs.

  BTW the cat handgrabbed without bitting or clawing. I do think this one example illustrated 2 possibilities of different perspectives of what a animal is intending. I've had and really like cats but I would not want a strange cat away from my face if it was getting playful as a cat owner I know trying to pull away from a handgrab might seen as further play and get me clawed/chewed and a soft tap on the nose means "too much, stop now". I'll be honest I may have nose tap in these circumstance. IF I wasn't a cat person I might be nervous and try very hard to encourage a cat to let go.

Normal is hard to define. I think its normal for animals to sniff and cats to legrub and dogs to nuzzle hands.  I think friendly dogs and cats my sit on someone lap and people comfortable with animals get usually get them off successfully and gently.  It's those interactions just slightly more intrusive then a sniff and those people just a tiny but unaccustomed with animals that thing have the most potential to go awry and into a grey area.

[EllenS]

I think it also depends what a "tap on the nose" consists of.  I often tap my husband or kids on the nose in a playful way - it is certainly not violent or harmful. I could see where a small "bonk" on the nose of a similar weight (one finger, no wrist action) could be used as a pattern-interrupt to an animal  or discouragement of unwanted behavior.

I personally would not try it because if an animal is being overly rambunctious, the last thing I want to do is stick my fingers in its face.  But I do think, if that is the scale we are talking about, that such a touch is no more hurtful or inappropriate than picking an animal up to relocate it.  Less effective, perhaps, but not harmful to the animal.

[menley]

A tap on the nose is, to me, literally a tap on the nose. Not hitting anyone or anything.

I agree with this. If someone escorted me out of their house for tapping their cat on the nose, frankly, we'd not be friends anymore. I view that as an extreme overreaction.

[Sharnita]

An actual tap on the nose might be easier for somebody who is uncomfortable aaround cats as well and doesn't know how exactly to pick up and move the cat without making matters worse.

[MindsEye]

A tap on the nose is, to me, literally a tap on the nose. Not hitting anyone or anything.

Well, the thing is that you are a lot bigger then a cat.  So what you think is "just a tap" probably doesn't feel like "just a tap" to the cat. 

Also, that "tap" is still physical discipline.  It is the same as going to someone's house and smacking their toddler on the hand because they grabbed for your shiny, shiny iPhone.  Just don't do it.  You don't get to apply your discipline standards to someone else's pet/child.

Edited to add: And don't forget that there is always the option of getting up and moving away from the pet.  You don't want that cat on your lap and don't know how to pick her up and move her off?  Try standing up.  I assure you that the cat will hop off when you start to move.  (At least, mine will)  You don't have to force a you vs the pet showdown.

I think that is what a lot of the pet owners on this thread are getting at.

[Arila]

As a Host: Our dog is small, clean, and very friendly. He doesn't jump up, but he does sometimes lick (not too excessively). When people are visiting our house, we do not banish him from the room, but I do watch guests carefully for their reaction to him, and usually they give off initial warning signs that they are uncomfortable (moving a hand/foot away from him if he is close etc), and in that case, I consider it a part of my hosting duties to remove the source of discomfort. Usually this is a redirect -- I have him sit with me, and I lightly restrain him, or remind him about his favorite toy over on his bed, or if desperate, we have always-distracting chew toys.

As a guest: I guess I have always felt comfortable telling a friend's dog "No" (not shouting, but sharply) for personal space violations like jumping or licking. If insufficient, I have removed their paws (gently but firmly - grasping and setting down, never impacting, no matter how "lightly") or pushed their faces away. When my friends had puppies, I also have been the first to notice a potty need and swiftly moved them outside without alerting the owner/waiting for them to do it, since time is of the essence there.

At friends' houses where I spend a lot of time, I do invest a little in a relationship with the dog. One of my friends has an over-eager-to-please/get-attention dog, and so I do give her easy commands (ie sit) and employ conservative/irreproachable dog training techniques such as praise/pats for good, and ignore/turn away for bad. I find that establishing myself as higher in the pack than the dog (I give commands to be followed), and give them attention on MY terms makes the rest of the visit(s) more pleasant.

[shhh its me]

A tap on the nose is, to me, literally a tap on the nose. Not hitting anyone or anything.

Well, the thing is that you are a lot bigger then a cat.  So what you think is "just a tap" probably doesn't feel like "just a tap" to the cat. 

Also, that "tap" is still physical discipline.  It is the same as going to someone's house and smacking their toddler on the hand because they grabbed for your shiny, shiny iPhone.  Just don't do it.  You don't get to apply your discipline standards to someone else's pet/child.

I think that is what a lot of the pet owners on this thread are getting at.

I also wont scratch your child behind the ears or rub their bellies and I would be very concerned if you child sniffed my butt ever-time I came into the door.   We interact much more psychically with animals. I would push a dogs head away from my crotch , I'd prod a cat off my lap, I wouldn't push a child hugging me.  Your child also likely wont bite me I'm assuming doesn't have 20 sharp claws , if your child hit me in face I'd very likely grab their hand and say "no!" and move them. 

[TXJess]

I have a 2 year old Sheltie who I have put a lot of time and effort into training to have good manners around people. She's still very bouncy and wiggly when she meets new people, and she's incredibly friendly, but I don't allow her to jump on people and ask that they wait to pet her until she's somewhat calm. But, being young, she has her moments. If someone is especially lovey on her (making a big fuss, talking in a high pitched voice), it can get her to the point where she can't contain herself. When we get to the point where she's just being obnoxious, I either put her on a leash or put her in her crate. I also have 2 cats. One hates everyone but me, but doesn't hide or try to avoid strangers. She likes to stand her ground and will growl, swat, and bite at people if they walk by. It's just better for everyone, cat included, if I put her in my bedroom where she feels less threatened and guests are safer. The other cat is super sweet, but shy, so he usually goes and hides anyway. He also goes in the bedroom because he feels safer there.

I love dogs and cats (friendly cats), but I don't like dogs that jump on you or get in your personal space. When I am a guest at someone's home and they have a dog that likes to jump on people, if I'm sitting on the couch and a dog tries to get in my lap uninvited, I stand up. If I'm already standing and a dog jumps on me, I usually cross my arms and turn my back to them. It depends on the size of the dog, but I try to communicate to them that I will pet you and give you attention when you're on the ground and not in my face. Luckily most people I know understand that I don't want their dog to jump on me and will control their dog. Due to an accident when I was a kid, I am very uneasy around larger dogs. I try to not let that hinder my ability to visit friends, but I will excuse myself if they can't control their dog and I feel threatened.

[msulinski]

A tap on the nose is, to me, literally a tap on the nose. Not hitting anyone or anything.

Well, the thing is that you are a lot bigger then a cat.  So what you think is "just a tap" probably doesn't feel like "just a tap" to the cat. 

Also, that "tap" is still physical discipline.  It is the same as going to someone's house and smacking their toddler on the hand because they grabbed for your shiny, shiny iPhone.  Just don't do it.  You don't get to apply your discipline standards to someone else's pet/child.

Edited to add: And don't forget that there is always the option of getting up and moving away from the pet.  You don't want that cat on your lap and don't know how to pick her up and move her off?  Try standing up.  I assure you that the cat will hop off when you start to move.  (At least, mine will)  You don't have to force a you vs the pet showdown.

I think that is what a lot of the pet owners on this thread are getting at.

Well, in the situation we are discussing, the cat had grabbed the guest's hand in her paws. Getting up and leaving isn't really an option at this point, as, if the guest felt like he was getting attacked, probably thought there might be claws involved.

[menley]

Edited to add: And don't forget that there is always the option of getting up and moving away from the pet.  You don't want that cat on your lap and don't know how to pick her up and move her off?  Try standing up.  I assure you that the cat will hop off when you start to move.  (At least, mine will)  You don't have to force a you vs the pet showdown.

I think that is what a lot of the pet owners on this thread are getting at.

I would view standing up and dumping a cat off my lap as much harsher than tapping it on the nose.