Author Topic: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club  (Read 15215 times)

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pierrotlunaire0

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Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
« Reply #120 on: February 11, 2014, 03:41:53 PM »
Except the club's rules interfere with her right to be on her own property. And that's where the etiquette breach lies. The club, IMO, does not have the right to tell the wife to leave her own home because of their rules. They don't own the house.

What you are missing is that the husband *does* own the house and he has invited the club into his house. THe club is not doing anything wrong.  If anyone is, it is the husband.

I totally agree with Turtledove. 
I have enough lithium in my medicine cabinet to power three cars across a sizeable desert.  Which makes me officially...Three Cars Crazy

Tabby Uprising

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Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
« Reply #121 on: February 11, 2014, 03:44:02 PM »
To answer you, LifeOnPluto, I agree with the majority: if her husband does not quit the club, then when it is his turn to host, yes, she would be rude not to leave. 

And her husband would be rude to the club if he agreed to let her stay.

Lowspark's post analogizing to the Bunco string is perfect.

I simply don't think she can be rude for not doing something she never agreed to do.  If my husband signs me up for things without my approval or consent, then I'm not going to do them.   Let him refuse to host or find a clubhouse or something - it is just not on her.

 There may be marital repercussions, of course, but we're just discussing rudeness.  It is not rude to be in your home, and it is not rude to be in your home even if someone else has guaranteed that you will not be there.

Exactly. Why does the club rules trump the wife's right to be in her own home? They're not paying the mortgage, so IMO they have no say. If it's that important to them to have "no skirts", as they so charmingly put it, then I agree - it's on them to find another location. I'm baffled as to why the wife should comply to being kicked out of her own home because it's the club rules.

I think it keeps coming back to the spouse (here husband) that belongs to the club.  If the husband wants to belong to the club, and if he agrees to abide by club rules, then that is why the club's rules trump the wife's.  Does he have the right as co-owner to strip her of her rights?  No, but that is why this really is no longer an etiquette issue, but a relationship one.  Now maybe the husband is waffling, and pretending that this has absolutely nothing to do with him, when it has everything to do with him.  The club is a decoy, and the husband needs to decide: which is more important -- kicking my wife out of her home, or hanging with my friends?

I disagree with that.  Both member and non-member are impacted by this rule and both need to consent.  If one spouse doesn't consent her needs aren't automatically usurped by the club.  Why would they?  She didn't agree to it. Her husband ignored her needs and flaunted club rules.  If the members are annoyed by this, it's on him not her. 

Having to leave one's own home is a big request.  Whether it's reasonable or not comes down to an individual basis, but it's a big request. It really needs consent of both partners and I can't agree that one partner is rude to stay in their own home when they made it known from the start they would do so.  Being in one's own home is such a fundamental thing. If you want to be in your home, how can that be usurped by anyone else who doesn't live there?

The club isn't doing anything wrong by having the rule or by coming to the house.  But she is not doing anything wrong by being in her own home when that's the stance she had from the start.  It doesn't make her rude. 

Blah, I can't get my thoughts around expressing it properly! 

TurtleDove

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Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
« Reply #122 on: February 11, 2014, 03:48:00 PM »
I think the disconnect is that some people are making this a situation of either the wife or the club is rude.  The club absolutely is not rude for expecting the rules to be followed.  If the wife goes to the club to complain, she is rude because this is something she needs to work out with her husband, not with the club.  This is a relationship issue, not an etiquette issue or "are the club's rules fair" issue.

melicious

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Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
« Reply #123 on: February 11, 2014, 03:49:28 PM »
If you want to be in your home, how can that be usurped by anyone else who doesn't live there?

This is my exact problem with this situation.

TurtleDove

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Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
« Reply #124 on: February 11, 2014, 03:53:27 PM »
If you want to be in your home, how can that be usurped by anyone else who doesn't live there?

This is my exact problem with this situation.

Because the DH has told the club it is okay.  The DH lives in the house and has invited a club to that house knowing that the club rules are that his wife is not to be present.  That is why.  That is why some/most of us are saying this is a relationship issue between the husband and wife and has little or nothing to do with the club.

melicious

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Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
« Reply #125 on: February 11, 2014, 03:57:46 PM »
If you want to be in your home, how can that be usurped by anyone else who doesn't live there?

This is my exact problem with this situation.

Because the DH has told the club it is okay.  The DH lives in the house and has invited a club to that house knowing that the club rules are that his wife is not to be present.  That is why.  That is why some/most of us are saying this is a relationship issue between the husband and wife and has little or nothing to do with the club.

I understand that. I just disagree that it's purely a relationship issue, and that's why most of my posts on this issue have included the disclaimer "IMO".

gellchom

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Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
« Reply #126 on: February 11, 2014, 04:04:16 PM »
You could make exactly the same argument that she wouldn't be rude to come along uninvited if the group met at a restaurant -- on the ground that someone not part of the marriage "has no right to usurp" her sacred marital right to be at her husband's side.

The club isn't telling her to leave the house.  Her husband is.  The club hasn't told her anything. If anyone is "usurping her rights," he is.  (As to the club's rules "interfering with her right to be on her own property" -- well, how is that different from the Bunco situation?  Isn't the kitchen or the living room "her own property" too?)

He's telling her that because he belongs to a club that requires him to provide an empty house when it's his turn to host.  But he is the one telling her, not them.  Maybe he is rude to do that; it just depends on their feelings about it.

She is rude to both her husband and the club if she insists on staying.  She may be completely justified in being angry at being placed in a situation where she either has to clear out or be rude.  Suppose instead he had invited dinner guests without asking her first; she'd certainly be justified in being annoyed at that, but she'd still be rude if she refused to speak to them during dinner or flip on loud music or start doing yoga in the middle of the living room while they are conversing there on the grounds that she has the right to do what she likes in her own home.  Justifiable annoyance at your spouse isn't a license to be rude to others. 

What this comes down to is whether it is okay for a spouse to ask the other spouse to clear out of all or part of the house during a members-only meeting of a private group that requires it of its members when it's their turn to host.  For some families, it is okay; for others, it's not.  For the latter, if their family will not cooperate, then that's not the club for them.

But that doesn't make it wrong for such groups or such rules to exist.  The LW is trying to win her disagreement with her husband by turning it into an objective, one-size-fits-all etiquette matter, and it just isn't.


Tabby Uprising

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Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
« Reply #127 on: February 11, 2014, 04:20:48 PM »
If you (general) are saying she's rude to be at the house when the club is visiting then you are saying in order to be polite she must leave her own home against her will.  I think that's an unreasonable request of etiquette.

It doesn't matter if it's a club issue or a relationship issue or a husband issue.  I'm not rude for not leaving my home against my own will. 

Tabby Uprising

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Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
« Reply #128 on: February 11, 2014, 04:25:51 PM »
You could make exactly the same argument that she wouldn't be rude to come along uninvited if the group met at a restaurant -- on the ground that someone not part of the marriage "has no right to usurp" her sacred marital right to be at her husband's side.

The club isn't telling her to leave the house.  Her husband is.  The club hasn't told her anything. If anyone is "usurping her rights," he is.  (As to the club's rules "interfering with her right to be on her own property" -- well, how is that different from the Bunco situation?  Isn't the kitchen or the living room "her own property" too?)

He's telling her that because he belongs to a club that requires him to provide an empty house when it's his turn to host.  But he is the one telling her, not them.  Maybe he is rude to do that; it just depends on their feelings about it.

She is rude to both her husband and the club if she insists on staying. She may be completely justified in being angry at being placed in a situation where she either has to clear out or be rude.  Suppose instead he had invited dinner guests without asking her first; she'd certainly be justified in being annoyed at that, but she'd still be rude if she refused to speak to them during dinner or flip on loud music or start doing yoga in the middle of the living room while they are conversing there on the grounds that she has the right to do what she likes in her own home.  Justifiable annoyance at your spouse isn't a license to be rude to others. 

What this comes down to is whether it is okay for a spouse to ask the other spouse to clear out of all or part of the house during a members-only meeting of a private group that requires it of its members when it's their turn to host.  For some families, it is okay; for others, it's not.  For the latter, if their family will not cooperate, then that's not the club for them.

But that doesn't make it wrong for such groups or such rules to exist.  The LW is trying to win her disagreement with her husband by turning it into an objective, one-size-fits-all etiquette matter, and it just isn't.

Regarding the bolded:  I think there's a huge difference between talking to dinner guests, tidying your home, flipping on loud music and being told to completely vacate your house.  Those other items kind of fall under standard etiquette in most areas.  It's a reasonable accommodation.  But leaving my home against my will in order to meet the needs of etiquette?  I don't see it.  It asks too much.

TootsNYC

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Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
« Reply #129 on: February 11, 2014, 04:27:33 PM »
Then you tell your husband he has to quit the club.
Or you stay, and tell your husband he has to quit the club.

TurtleDove

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Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
« Reply #130 on: February 11, 2014, 04:30:18 PM »
Regarding the bolded:  I think there's a huge difference between talking to dinner guests, tidying your home, flipping on loud music and being told to completely vacate your house.  Those other items kind of fall under standard etiquette in most areas.  It's a reasonable accommodation.  But leaving my home against my will in order to meet the needs of etiquette?  I don't see it.  It asks too much.

No.  The wife would be vacating the house at her husband's request.  If she does not want to do that, she needs to take that up with the husband.

Tabby Uprising

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Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
« Reply #131 on: February 11, 2014, 04:33:11 PM »
Then you tell your husband he has to quit the club.
Or you stay, and tell your husband he has to quit the club.

Oh, I don't disagree with that at all. But staying doesn't  make me rude.  That's my point of contention.  As stated in my previous posts, I don't think the club or the rule itself is rude.  I'm explicitly addressing the idea that if the wife stays (after expressing her wishes to her husband) in her own home she's rude.

TootsNYC

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Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
« Reply #132 on: February 11, 2014, 04:43:37 PM »
Then you tell your husband he has to quit the club.
Or you stay, and tell your husband he has to quit the club.

Oh, I don't disagree with that at all. But staying doesn't  make me rude.  That's my point of contention.  As stated in my previous posts, I don't think the club or the rule itself is rude.  I'm explicitly addressing the idea that if the wife stays (after expressing her wishes to her husband) in her own home she's rude.

I agree, I don't think she's rude. But her husband is.

lollylegs

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Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
« Reply #133 on: February 11, 2014, 04:44:50 PM »
I think there were two instances of rudeness: the husband, by asking his wife to leave when it obviously upsets her, and the organiser for making the rule in the first place. I don't think 'well the husbands knew and they joined anyway' cancels it out because it was a rude rule to make in the first place. Suppose the rule was, we go out to a non-smoking restaurant and smoke cigars. Yes, the people who willingly participate are rude, but so is the person who set the rule.

Unless you're helping me pay my mortgage, you do not get to ask tell me to leave my house.

gellchom

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Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
« Reply #134 on: February 11, 2014, 04:46:47 PM »
If she stays, is the club rude for excluding her from the conversation in her own home?

I think language like "banishment" and "forced to leave her own home against her will" is a little overwrought for this situation.  Her husband wants to have the house for a couple of hours.  I agree that she doesn't have to agree to that if she doesn't want to, but it really isn't asking very much. 

(Personally, I'd be a lot less put off by a request to go out and do whatever I want for two or three hours once every few months than by something like having to feed and socialize with unexpected guests I'm not interested in with no notice.)

Maybe he could request to host on a night she's busy or out of town anyway.  I have a feeling that wouldn't satisfy her, though. 

Let me ask you: suppose there wasn't any "empty house" rule, just a rule that each member must take a turn hosting, and she just doesn't want any club meetings in the house -- maybe she fears mess or she's just very anxious or whatever.  Is this rule unfair to her?  It encroaches upon her right to enjoy her own home, and she didn't have any say in it, and they aren't helping pay the mortgage.  My answer is the same: there is nothing wrong with the rule.  The issue is between the spouses: they have conflicting desires, and they need to work it out.