Author Topic: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club  (Read 15604 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

TurtleDove

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 5718
Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
« Reply #135 on: February 11, 2014, 04:47:19 PM »
I think there were two instances of rudeness: the husband, by asking his wife to leave when it obviously upsets her, and the organiser for making the rule in the first place. I don't think 'well the husbands knew and they joined anyway' cancels it out because it was a rude rule to make in the first place. Suppose the rule was, we go out to a non-smoking restaurant and smoke cigars. Yes, the people who willingly participate are rude, but so is the person who set the rule.

Unless you're helping me pay my mortgage, you do not get to ask tell me to leave my house.

I disagree with your reasoning and conclusions, mostly because the person asking the wife to leave the house *does* help her pay the mortgage.   I don't think the cigar smoking in a restaurant is at all similar either, FWIW.

melicious

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 299
Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
« Reply #136 on: February 11, 2014, 04:51:07 PM »
I think there were two instances of rudeness: the husband, by asking his wife to leave when it obviously upsets her, and the organiser for making the rule in the first place. I don't think 'well the husbands knew and they joined anyway' cancels it out because it was a rude rule to make in the first place. Suppose the rule was, we go out to a non-smoking restaurant and smoke cigars. Yes, the people who willingly participate are rude, but so is the person who set the rule.

Unless you're helping me pay my mortgage, you do not get to ask tell me to leave my house.

I disagree with your reasoning and conclusions, mostly because the person asking the wife to leave the house *does* help her pay the mortgage.

Yes, but the rest of the club does not. And the club is the one who made the rule - not the husband. And therein lies the problem, and why I believe in my opinion, that it is not solely a relationship issue, but poor etiquette on the part of the club.

TurtleDove

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 5718
Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
« Reply #137 on: February 11, 2014, 04:55:28 PM »
I think there were two instances of rudeness: the husband, by asking his wife to leave when it obviously upsets her, and the organiser for making the rule in the first place. I don't think 'well the husbands knew and they joined anyway' cancels it out because it was a rude rule to make in the first place. Suppose the rule was, we go out to a non-smoking restaurant and smoke cigars. Yes, the people who willingly participate are rude, but so is the person who set the rule.

Unless you're helping me pay my mortgage, you do not get to ask tell me to leave my house.

I disagree with your reasoning and conclusions, mostly because the person asking the wife to leave the house *does* help her pay the mortgage.

Yes, but the rest of the club does not. And the club is the one who made the rule - not the husband. And therein lies the problem, and why I believe in my opinion, that it is not solely a relationship issue, but poor etiquette on the part of the club.

Ah.  Then we will never agree.  I see absolutely nothing wrong with the club's rule and would gladly vacate my home to allow my spouse some man time.  I would expect my DH to do the same for me if I asked him to (and he would). I don't see the rule as an etiquette issue at all. It is a rule you do not approve of, but I don't think it is at all a breach of etiquette to have the rule. 
« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 04:57:10 PM by TurtleDove »

lollylegs

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 584
Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
« Reply #138 on: February 11, 2014, 04:59:22 PM »
I think there were two instances of rudeness: the husband, by asking his wife to leave when it obviously upsets her, and the organiser for making the rule in the first place. I don't think 'well the husbands knew and they joined anyway' cancels it out because it was a rude rule to make in the first place. Suppose the rule was, we go out to a non-smoking restaurant and smoke cigars. Yes, the people who willingly participate are rude, but so is the person who set the rule.

Unless you're helping me pay my mortgage, you do not get to ask tell me to leave my house.

I disagree with your reasoning and conclusions, mostly because the person asking the wife to leave the house *does* help her pay the mortgage.   I don't think the cigar smoking in a restaurant is at all similar either, FWIW.

The person helping her to pay the mortgage is asking because someone who isn't said that's what he had to do to join the club. That's why I think that two people are being rude.

The cigar smoking isn't a perfect comparison but my point is that the person giving the order is as rude as the people complying with it.

I think there were two instances of rudeness: the husband, by asking his wife to leave when it obviously upsets her, and the organiser for making the rule in the first place. I don't think 'well the husbands knew and they joined anyway' cancels it out because it was a rude rule to make in the first place. Suppose the rule was, we go out to a non-smoking restaurant and smoke cigars. Yes, the people who willingly participate are rude, but so is the person who set the rule.

Unless you're helping me pay my mortgage, you do not get to ask tell me to leave my house.

I disagree with your reasoning and conclusions, mostly because the person asking the wife to leave the house *does* help her pay the mortgage.

Yes, but the rest of the club does not. And the club is the one who made the rule - not the husband. And therein lies the problem, and why I believe in my opinion, that it is not solely a relationship issue, but poor etiquette on the part of the club.

Ah.  Then we will never agree.  I see absolutely nothing wrong with the club's rule and would gladly vacate my home to allow my spouse some man time.  I would expect my DH to do the same for me if I asked him to (and he would). I don't see the rule as an etiquette issue at all.

I don't think you can say that it's universally not rude because you personally wouldn't mind. I actually like it when people include their registry information in their wedding invitation but I'm not going to argue that it's not an etiquette blunder.

Mikayla

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4049
Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
« Reply #139 on: February 11, 2014, 04:59:49 PM »
I have a question for people saying that the club was rude to have this rule and the husband is rude for making the request to his wife.  What if the rule was the opposite?  IOW, instead of leaving the home, the wives were expected to cook and serve a 5 course formal dinner? 

This isn't a trap question.  I'm trying to figure out why a subjective term like "unreasonable" is being equated to an etiquette term like "rude". 

Obviously, I'm one who thinks this is 100 percent a relationship issue.

melicious

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 299
Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
« Reply #140 on: February 11, 2014, 05:01:05 PM »
I think there were two instances of rudeness: the husband, by asking his wife to leave when it obviously upsets her, and the organiser for making the rule in the first place. I don't think 'well the husbands knew and they joined anyway' cancels it out because it was a rude rule to make in the first place. Suppose the rule was, we go out to a non-smoking restaurant and smoke cigars. Yes, the people who willingly participate are rude, but so is the person who set the rule.

Unless you're helping me pay my mortgage, you do not get to ask tell me to leave my house.

I disagree with your reasoning and conclusions, mostly because the person asking the wife to leave the house *does* help her pay the mortgage.

Yes, but the rest of the club does not. And the club is the one who made the rule - not the husband. And therein lies the problem, and why I believe in my opinion, that it is not solely a relationship issue, but poor etiquette on the part of the club.

Ah.  Then we will never agree.  I see absolutely nothing wrong with the club's rule and would gladly vacate my home to allow my spouse some man time.  I would expect my DH to do the same for me if I asked him to (and he would). I don't see the rule as an etiquette issue at all. It is a rule you do not approve of, but I don't think it is at all a breach of etiquette to have the rule.

Indeed, I think it just boils down to a difference of opinion, because I totally think it's an etiquette breach. I wouldn't have a problem allowing my hypothetical spouse their "man time", I just would have a problem with a rule that has me leaving my own property whether I like it or not.

But you're right: we'll have to agree to disagree.

lowspark

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3799
Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
« Reply #141 on: February 11, 2014, 05:02:04 PM »
I think this is one of those cases where we're not going to agree. I can see the point of those who say the wife isn't rude to stay in her own house. I disagree but I understand where you're coming from.

I think the main points (for me) here are:
- club is not rude to require this
- husband needs to work it out with wife
- husband is rude to have the club meeting at his house knowing the wife will be there
- wife may or may not be rude for not vacating, but it's clear that there is an underlying relationship issue that the two of them need to work out.

shhh its me

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 6900
Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
« Reply #142 on: February 11, 2014, 05:02:40 PM »
  I don't think its black and white. 

IF a spouse used their house for their interests and clubs that required their spouse to be gone 15 hours a week and the spouse asked for the same for 3 hours every 3 months.   I would think the spouse would be rude to both the club and spouse to refuse.

I think the disagreeing spouse has to say "no, I will not be leaving" very clearly they can't say " hmmm  I think this is wrong and I don't like it." thinks to herself " I just wont leave ." and that it must be said in a reasonable time frame or staying would be rude to the club too.

In the what I think would be rare situation* disagreeing spouse says " I will under no circumstances leave. nope no way not going to happen."  and its a consistence and timely  response I think then and only then is only the hosting spouse rude to the club.  That is the same as a host saying " I booked the restaurant for the 100 of us."  and it being a lie the restaurant told host "We are booked solid for that night." 

I don't think disagreeing would be rare but not resolving it for months even if someone is really unhappy with the solution would be rare.


TurtleDove

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 5718
Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
« Reply #143 on: February 11, 2014, 05:05:04 PM »

The person helping her to pay the mortgage is asking because someone who isn't said that's what he had to do to join the club. That's why I think that two people are being rude.


The appropriate thing to do then would be for the husband to not join the club if he does not like the rules.  The fact any random person does not like a rule does not make that rule rude.  No one is forcing the husband to be part of the club. 

lollylegs

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 584
Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
« Reply #144 on: February 11, 2014, 05:21:08 PM »

The person helping her to pay the mortgage is asking because someone who isn't said that's what he had to do to join the club. That's why I think that two people are being rude.


The appropriate thing to do then would be for the husband to not join the club if he does not like the rules.  The fact any random person does not like a rule does not make that rule rude.  No one is forcing the husband to be part of the club. 

Absolutely the husband shouldn't have joined, but the wife isn't some random person. She's someone who is affected by the rule. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree as well cause I don't want to keep repeating that I think the organiser is rude for making a rule about a homeowners presence in their own home and the husband is rude for following it.

And for the record, if my partner came to me and said, "Bob's started a club, the rule is that you can't be here when I host," I'd go along with it. It has nothing to do with not wanting to give my partner 'man time' and everything to do with being annoyed that someone else is making a rule about when I can and can't be in my house (which, yes, my partner would be agreeing to by voluntarily joining the club).

I have a question for people saying that the club was rude to have this rule and the husband is rude for making the request to his wife.  What if the rule was the opposite?  IOW, instead of leaving the home, the wives were expected to cook and serve a 5 course formal dinner? 

This isn't a trap question.  I'm trying to figure out why a subjective term like "unreasonable" is being equated to an etiquette term like "rude". 

Obviously, I'm one who thinks this is 100 percent a relationship issue.

I think that would be equally rude. Like saying to someone, "Let's have dinner. At your house. You cook a five course meal."

TootsNYC

  • A Pillar of the Forum
  • *****
  • Posts: 30473
Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
« Reply #145 on: February 11, 2014, 05:22:23 PM »
I think there were two instances of rudeness: the husband, by asking his wife to leave when it obviously upsets her, and the organiser for making the rule in the first place. I don't think 'well the husbands knew and they joined anyway' cancels it out because it was a rude rule to make in the first place. Suppose the rule was, we go out to a non-smoking restaurant and smoke cigars. Yes, the people who willingly participate are rude, but so is the person who set the rule.

Unless you're helping me pay my mortgage, you do not get to ask tell me to leave my house.

I honestly think the wife is rude to her husband. At the least, very inconsiderate. Seriously, with notice, you can't come up with something to do for the evening that gets you out of the house, so your husband can have an enjoyable evening with the guys? Visit a friend? See a movie? Stay late at work? (frequency would affect this, of course)
   Sure, you may live in the country, far from any other sorts of entertainment options, and far from family and friends. Then, maybe you should go slop the cows or something.
   In this specific woman's case, there are 8 to 12 guys coming over; surely some of them of them have wives whose husbands are out of the house. She's not interested in spending time with any of them?

If I were in her shoes, I'd be inviting a few of the wives over on club night, so that they'd have something to do if they were at loose ends.

Iris

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3867
Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
« Reply #146 on: February 11, 2014, 05:23:22 PM »
I have a question for people saying that the club was rude to have this rule and the husband is rude for making the request to his wife.  What if the rule was the opposite?  IOW, instead of leaving the home, the wives were expected to cook and serve a 5 course formal dinner? 

This isn't a trap question.  I'm trying to figure out why a subjective term like "unreasonable" is being equated to an etiquette term like "rude". 

Obviously, I'm one who thinks this is 100 percent a relationship issue.

I like this parallel. The thread is getting very black or white, but I actually think it is a bit of both to be honest. After reading all the replies I will try and summarise my thoughts;

1. The club is not RUDE to make this rule. They can have whatever rule they want. However I think the club is *clueless* and *inconsiderate* to make this rule because it impacts on people that aren't members of the club. It potentially puts the male members of the community in a position where they have to choose between their wife's feelings and joining a club, which in a closed retirement community can be a big deal. I think it would have been BETTER for the club to make other arrangements for their 'man time'.

2. The wife is not rude if she refuses to leave her home. Her husband is not entitled to make promises like that on her behalf. I wouldn't even do that to my children and they DON'T pay the mortgage. Nevertheless it is their home and while I may ask them to make themselves scarce for a while so I can enjoy time with my friends I wouldn't ask them to just leave, childcare issues aside. OTOH if this were important to my husband I would suck it up, but her feelings are not unreasonable.

3. The husband IS rude if he has promised the club a 'wife-free' house without consulting her first. That is a relationship issue, but nonetheless you can be rude to your spouse and it's still rudeness, even if it's ALSO a relationship issue. It's also rude to the other club members if she says "No way" and he doesn't make other arrangements.

Back to Mikayla's post; I have a saying "You can expect whatever you want, but that really doesn't affect me". The club would still not be rude for expecting a 5 course meal, but I suspect they'd be in for a big surprise at many houses. This is why I think it is such a good parallel. They can expect a 5 course meal all they want, but the wives aren't members of the club and their husbands aren't entitled to make those promises on their behalf. In your parallel it would clearly be better to go to a restaurant if they want a 5 course meal cooked by others. Similarly here they are expecting other people to be inconvenienced to provide their men-only time without seeming to realise that they can make all the club rules they want but they can't make rules for people who are NOT members of their club.

In summary, if they have a "no skirts"  ::) club, then "no skirts" are obliged to follow their rules.
"Can't do anything with children, can you?" the woman said.

Poirot thought you could, but forebore to say so.

TootsNYC

  • A Pillar of the Forum
  • *****
  • Posts: 30473
Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
« Reply #147 on: February 11, 2014, 05:25:55 PM »


I have a question for people saying that the club was rude to have this rule and the husband is rude for making the request to his wife.  What if the rule was the opposite?  IOW, instead of leaving the home, the wives were expected to cook and serve a 5 course formal dinner? 

This isn't a trap question.  I'm trying to figure out why a subjective term like "unreasonable" is being equated to an etiquette term like "rude". 

Obviously, I'm one who thinks this is 100 percent a relationship issue.

I think that would be equally rude. Like saying to someone, "Let's have dinner. At your house. You cook a five course meal."

But again--this would be a matter between husband and wife. "I want to join a dinner club, but the way it works is that I have to host people for a five-course meal once every three weeks."  Wife says, "I can't do that, I don't want to do that." It's between the two of them.
   If the husband does not have his spouse's agreement, he's the only rude one. (and boy, is he rude)

And in the situation in the OP, I think the husband is not being rude to his wife, but his wife is being sort of rude to him by not clearly saying, "I resent this, I don't like it, it makes me mad," so that he can make whatever argument that might persuade her, or else cancel his membership in the club. He's the one in the spot of being rude or not being rude.

Tabby Uprising

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 451
Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
« Reply #148 on: February 11, 2014, 05:29:26 PM »
Personally, right now I'd loooove it if my husband joined a club with a "no skirts at the house" rule.  We have two kids  >:D  I'd be out of the house so fast his head would spin, even if all I ended up doing was skipping around and around the neighborhood for 3 hours saying, "Wheeeeeeeeeee!" 

I'd make him host at least once a week.

melicious

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 299
Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
« Reply #149 on: February 11, 2014, 05:32:36 PM »
'd be out of the house so fast his head would spin, even if all I ended up doing was skipping around and around the neighborhood for 3 hours saying, "Wheeeeeeeeeee!" 

I would pay to see that! :)