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Author Topic: Unwarrented Demands for Loyalty (Share stories)  (Read 111264 times)

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alkira6

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Re: Unwarrented Demands for Loyalty (Share stories)
« Reply #135 on: February 19, 2014, 04:53:22 PM »
^^^ Situations such as that are the kind that make me want to say, "I would like to direct your attention to the sprig of mistletoe I have so playfully affixed to my back pocket."

I...think I love you for this quote alone.

nuit93

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Re: Unwarrented Demands for Loyalty (Share stories)
« Reply #136 on: February 19, 2014, 05:26:33 PM »
^^^ Situations such as that are the kind that make me want to say, "I would like to direct your attention to the sprig of mistletoe I have so playfully affixed to my back pocket."

Saving that for later :-D

Delete My Account

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Re: Unwarrented Demands for Loyalty (Share stories)
« Reply #137 on: February 19, 2014, 05:50:40 PM »
^^^ Situations such as that are the kind that make me want to say, "I would like to direct your attention to the sprig of mistletoe I have so playfully affixed to my back pocket."

Love it.

Piratelvr1121

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Re: Unwarrented Demands for Loyalty (Share stories)
« Reply #138 on: February 19, 2014, 05:52:36 PM »
^^^ Situations such as that are the kind that make me want to say, "I would like to direct your attention to the sprig of mistletoe I have so playfully affixed to my back pocket."

Love it.

Heeheehee!! :):)
Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars.  You have a right to be here. Be cheerful, strive to be happy. -Desiderata

Phoebelion

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Re: Unwarrented Demands for Loyalty (Share stories)
« Reply #139 on: February 20, 2014, 10:22:45 AM »
We are predicted to have a major ice storm along with high winds later today.  (ice + high winds = trees and wires down)

The manager just announced if it happens, don't bother coming in tomorrow.

My response was "Bless your heart".  He knows what I meant ;D

fountainof

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Re: Unwarrented Demands for Loyalty (Share stories)
« Reply #140 on: February 20, 2014, 11:28:36 AM »
I think in many cases it is in an employees best interest not to openly discuss salary.  I think demanding it in writing probably isn't enforceable.  My DH has worked a place where they felt you shouldn't even discuss your salary with non-employees and that is crazy since there are reasons you do discuss salary with other people like your spouse or your financial planner.

Employees should use discretion when discussing salaries and bonuses.  Not really for the employer's benefit but for their own.  What happens if your bonus is $XX and Jill's is only $X.  If she knows, she may question the difference trying to get more bonus for herself but in turn it may bring to light a question of your own bonus and maybe it is too high.  I make a high income because the knowledge and risk I take in my profession.  I hear a lot from a few admin staff here that it must be nice that the owners make so much, aren't they lucky, etc. in a tone that implies they feel it is unfair.  For this reason, I protect myself by not discussing my salary/income with coworkers in lower positions.  I am a junior partner and I do discuss career aspiration/ income goals with the two junior partners and two senior partners though as the more money I bring into the firm, the more they make as well.

Ceallach

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Re: Unwarrented Demands for Loyalty (Share stories)
« Reply #141 on: February 21, 2014, 05:59:18 PM »
We have no explicit policy of not discussing salary, however it is my preference.

We pay our staff fairly (and I believe in rewarding good staff so they stay!), but that doesn't mean they will necessarily see it that way.    For example, the administration staff might look at the clinical staff and think "Hey I work just as many hours as she does!  And my job is really hard!  Why does she get $20k more?"  because they don't necessarily understand the different training and experience required for the other job.    The fact is, most people are theoretically capable of doing any of the jobs, so it's hard for them to sometimes realise that actually what the other person does *is* worth more because it's a harder role to recruit for, as a person has to have some prior qualification and experience, and that while it may appear day to day they're doing similarly easy tasks they are making higher level decisions.   But these things are rarely raised openly and discussed, they're more likely to affect morale through quiet grumbling about the other team being overpaid.   So unless we're in an industry where we can be completely open and public about remuneration, it's best if it's kept discreet to avoid misunderstanding.    (We definitely do not pay staff doing the same job different salaries, except based on seniority e.g. if somebody is new they will earn less for their first 6 months).   

I would never say "don't you dare tell anybody else what you earn!" because I think that almost guarantees that they *will* do that - after all, if somebody said that to me my first thought would be "Why not??  What is it they don't want us to find out?" and I'd immediately want to compare salaries to see where the discrepancy was and the reason for the secrecy.   ;)
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pierrotlunaire0

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Re: Unwarrented Demands for Loyalty (Share stories)
« Reply #142 on: February 22, 2014, 10:49:45 AM »
Ceallach, those are all excellent points, and I think that is why my one previous employer did forbid all salary discussions.  In civil service, you know going in that position A earns $X, and the qualifications are such and such, while my position earns $Y, and this is what I needed to be hired.  Any employee who said, "But I work just as much," would be told that pay rates are set by law.  If you don't think it is fair, go elsewhere.
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FauxFoodist

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Re: Unwarrented Demands for Loyalty (Share stories)
« Reply #143 on: February 22, 2014, 01:00:40 PM »
When DH and I bought our house 1.5 years ago, we went to HardwareStore to buy our appliances.  OBFF (Obnoxious BFF) had an absolute cow about DH doing this and verbally abused DH on the phone and in e-mail about how DH "went against tradition" and how "only a loser would go to HardwareStore" to buy these appliances.  ::)  >:(  Apparently OBFF and NBFF (Nice BFF) bought their major appliances from OtherHardwareStore so DH was supposed to follow "tradition" and purchase from OtherHardwareStore also (we don't shop at OtherHardwareStore because of me -- I had bad customer service from them at two different locations in different parts of the state; I declared after the second one that I wouldn't shop there ever again).  I was pretty peeved that OBFF was abusing DH over this (and he did this for several weeks, I believe).  I still can't believe this loser thought he has the right to dictate to anyone where to shop.  Several months go by and OBFF is having a cow about something...again.  I ask DH what is it this time; DH said it's about the appliances again.  DH has a very mild-mannered way of handling these things and let it slide again.  Currently, DH is not talking to OBFF (he's "taking a break"; OBFF finally crossed the line where DH is concerned).

Another OBFF demand for loyalty -- NBFF has a happy life with his wife and kids.  NBFF loves loves LOVES being a dad; DH said that, when they were in high school, NBFF always talked about how he looked forward to being a dad one day.  NBFF and wife are really good parents, and their lives do seem quite happy and full.  OBFF is beyond upset that NBFF does not spend more time on/with OBFF.  OBFF even told NBFF that NBFF's wife and kids take up way too much of his time.  OBFF feels that since he, OBFF, was around first, that NBFF's loyalty and time should first go to OBFF.  NBFF is too busy to deal with this insanity so he does the best thing and refuses to engage the crazy.  NBFF is a very happy guy.  OBFF...miserable as always.

OBFF would call DH around the clock and expect DH to drop everything to talk to him.  DH has a bad habit of running to answer the phone every time it rings and the door every time someone is there.  I am the polar opposite.  I will typically ignore both of these things unless I am expecting a call or a visitor.  As a result, DH would habitually answer the phone.  DH didn't understand the rudeness of sitting there chatting away with or having a continual text-exchange with someone else while we were on a date.  I had a few discussions with DH about this so DH learned to not do this (I think it finally hit home when I was literally on my way to the front door while he ignored me to chat on a call that could wait until I had gone home; DH quickly got off the phone).  OBFF, though, just wasn't learning (mostly because DH would keep picking up the phone).  DH learned to stop answering the phone (I told DH if he would just stop responding, OBFF would stop bombarding him for contact).  I think DH finally learned after two situations that didn't involve me.  DH was trying to pray one morning and, even after telling OBFF he would talk to him later and needed to pray, OBFF continued to call.  DH turned off the ringers and prayed.  Another time, DH was at work, and OBFF continued to call.  I'm not sure what DH told him (he might've had to enlist the assistance of his coworker to tell OBFF DH was not available to come to the phone).

DH's middle-aged cousin also believes that, when she calls, everyone is supposed to drop everything to cater to her.  She actually had DH and BIL trained to do this because, as they both said, if you don't, Cousin gets very upset and freezes you out (not that I think that's a bad thing).  DH would do this while we were dating and, one time, let her engage him when we were together, rushing to get to the phone because of her unreasonable demands.  I pointed out to him that a) he's setting up the future for us by allowing her to come first and b) he was jeopardizing the future of our relationship as I wasn't going to spend our lives together with Cousin being allowed to force him to drop everything at her whim.  As predicted, Cousin froze out DH because he wouldn't cater to her, and, yes, she blamed it all on me.  She even blew me off at our wedding -- I told DH that was the last time I was tolerating her at an event of ours and that, as long as we're together, she's not welcome in our house, pointing out that it would said a very bad message to future children to allow someone to be in our home and see their father allow that person to disrespect their mother like that; DH agreed (I didn't want her at our wedding but knew I'd have to tolerate her presence for this event; I even encouraged DH to continue to reach out to her and invite her to be one of the lectors at our wedding -- yes, I can't stand her, but I know it upsets DH to not be close to her anymore so I put up with this, to an extent, for DH's sake; however, snubbing me at our wedding was the last time I was putting up with her shenanigans and, finally, DH was upset and agreed).

A few years ago, I was a chocolate festival with DH (then DF) and some friends.  DH wasn't feeling well so he opted not to participate in the chocolate tea service we were doing at that moment.  I understood but, playfully, gave DH a frowny face and told him I was sad.  My guy friend's face became quite thunderous and, in a low voice only I could hear, said that he (Guy) was participating and that should be good enough.  >:(  I was furious but let it slide at that moment.  Later that day, Guy decided he had to take me aside to berate me away from DH and another friend.  I let Guy know in no uncertain terms that while I was happy he participated in the tea service, that didn't mean I couldn't be sad that DH was not participating.  Also, I made it very clear to Guy that I was marrying DH, and there would never be a time where I would put Guy ahead of DH (and, no, jealousy wasn't in play here -- I dated Guy years prior, and Guy had every opportunity to get back together with me but never wanted to...then I woke up and realized I didn't want to either -- this is a year or two before I met DH).  Directly after that incident, I realized I'd had enough of Guy's SS behavior and haven't seen or spoken to him in 3.5 years, I think.

And, I just have to point out -- every one of these individuals I mentioned are miserable human beings.  Gee, I wonder why...

twilight

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Re: Unwarrented Demands for Loyalty (Share stories)
« Reply #144 on: February 22, 2014, 01:03:19 PM »
What people earn is supposed to be confidential. I worked in payroll and this was stressed on me on my first day.
I agree that people who have access to that information in the course of their work should consider it confidential. But it's a huge red flag for me, when an employer stresses that an individual is never, ever to tell a co-worker about his.her salary- because in my experience, that means that the boss is engaged in unfair practices, and knows it. If you don't let the men tell the women they're getting $5000 a year more for the same work, then you don't have to deal with irate women employees.

I don't think that's always the case, but that can be one indication of unfair practices.  Unless there were other indications, however, I wouldn't use that one policy as an indication of a problem.  I've never held a job where HR policies didn't prohibit us from discussing our pay with other employees.  Of course, that didn't stop us.

I have to agree with Mr. Tango.  Almost every company out there has a policy about not divulging salary.  There are many other criteria available to determine whether a company is a good fit. The salary policy is at the bottom of the list for me.

Most people don't realize that in the majority of cases U.S. employers cannot legally require employees not to discuss salaries with each other. 

http://www.lexisnexis.com/legalnewsroom/labor-employment/b/labor-employment-top-blogs/archive/2013/02/21/you-have-the-right-to-discuss-salary-with-coworkers.aspx

Just because it is in an employee policy handbook does not mean it is legal for your company to enforce.  I have run into 2 situations where my employer (giant well known global corporate conglomerate who you would think would know better) has had items in our handbook that are illegal.  One employee fought back after HR threatened her for violating a policy and she just had her lawyer send them a letter that what they were doing was illegal.  HR backed down because they didn't have a legal leg to stand on.  So just cause it is your employer's policy does not necessarily mean they have a legal right to enforce the policy.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2014, 01:07:53 PM by twilight »

HorseFreak

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Re: Unwarrented Demands for Loyalty (Share stories)
« Reply #145 on: February 22, 2014, 05:33:00 PM »
I got a text early this afternoon from our office manager saying I needed to be on call all weekend because Boss had to do something that should take no more than an hour and would not prevent her from answering a phone. I was on my way into the city and politely declined as my employer believes I'm free to work any time they want if I'm in the state. Last time it was so Boss could attend a football game and I needed to drive 4 hours for a conference at a specific that day which completely overlapped.

Jocelyn

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Re: Unwarrented Demands for Loyalty (Share stories)
« Reply #146 on: February 22, 2014, 05:44:44 PM »
I was thinking that I was going to get a new car in a few months, so one day while I was driving past the X Dealership, I decided to swing in and see if they had some brochures detailing the difference between a couple of models I was considering. Of course they did, and a salesman spent some time talking with me, so I thought nothing of signing the customer log so that he would be given credit for his time.

After a couple of weeks, I noticed that several people in an organization I belonged to were being very cold towards me. It ultimately came out that one of the men had seen the log, and was furious that I had not asked for him when I came in. The SS part of it? I had no idea he had recently taken a job selling cars. AND he was a salesman in the Y Brand Dealership, which was owned by the same man who owned the X Brand Dealership.
I would have been glad to patronize this salesman- IF I had known he worked at the Y dealership, and salesmen at the Y dealership could also show X cars. But all I wanted was a brochure...I didn't even plan to speak to a salesman! So it seemed really silly, that even if I HAD known, to drive into the Y dealership and ask him to walk over to the X dealership and get me a brochure about X cars.
I ended up buying at the Z dealership. ::) His wife never forgave me for the mortal insult to her husband's car-selling prowess.

Micah

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Re: Unwarrented Demands for Loyalty (Share stories)
« Reply #147 on: February 22, 2014, 10:29:32 PM »
OH got a job working for a logging contractor straight out of trade school. He worked for them for fifteen years, full time, hardly any sick days and NO HOLIDAYS except for two weeks when he met me. Yah, the man was a workaholic, still is really. His trade qualification was as a diesel mechanic, but his job was just as an operator. Rather than pay a mechanic $60 or above an hour to work on the machines, they got OH to do it, for no extra pay......for fifteen years.

A couple of years after he met me the company employed someone who lived near us and the site boss decreed that OH's work vehicle was to be used to transport OH and the new hire. Fair enough, no point giving new hire his own vehicle when he lived so close and was travelling to exactly the same job site. Except, new hire was an extremely unpleasant character who proceeded to make OH's life hell  every single day for six months. The job site was over two hours away, so it was four hours every single day.  OH is extremely easy going, very non violent. In nine years together I think I've seen him genuinely furious twice. He went through every proper channel he could (on my advice. I worked for a huge corporation at the time. Their conflict resolution practices and employee standards stuff were some of the top in the world at the time. I had a fairly solid working knowledge of employee rights) and he basically got told to suck it up. Absolutely nothing was done. OH was stressed and depressed, I was furious on his behalf.

It all came to a head when he came home several hours early, alone in the work car, with a black eye. New hire had attacked him in the car! OH fought back in self defence and they were both sent home early pending an investigation. The end result was that both of them got fired. New hire for starting the fight and OH for fighting back! So basically he should have just let new hire beat him to a pulp and he would have kept his job!  >:(

The ownership of the company was set up a little funny. There were two owners, one fairly local and one overseas. Then were were numerous site and crew bosses under them. The decision to fire them both came from the overseas owner, because the local one had been unreachable due to a family emergency.

OH had always said that local boss was an really nice man, so in desperation, with bills piling up I rang him. He was astounded to hear OH's side of the story (believed him instantly). He kept saying, "He should have come straight to me! Stuff protocol and proper channels!" He assured me that if it were completely up to him OH would have his job back instantly, but because other owner had made the decision he couldn't. What he could do though was make sure every single entitlement was paid to OH and give him a glowing reference. (When the payment came through it was several thousand dollars over what we expected. I found out through other channels that he'd given us several thousand out of his own pocket. I'll forever love that man for that.)

The kicker though was several weeks later (OH already had another job, he is highly employable) the site boss (One of the people directly responsible for him losing his job) rang and said that the machines were falling apart and that they would consider hiring him back.....on probation with a lot less pay than he'd been previously on. Fortunately I answered the phone and was able to tell him, without using any bad language, exactly what I thought of him.
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drzim

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Re: Unwarrented Demands for Loyalty (Share stories)
« Reply #148 on: February 22, 2014, 11:27:06 PM »
Slightly OT.....a story about comparing salaries that happened a long long time ago...

When I was home for the summer after my first year of college I landed a very nice summer job working for a company that did evaluations of educational curricula and special programs for K-12 schools.  At first all I was doing was data entry, but I learned quickly and started doing more and more analysis of the data, graphs, compiling reports.  Because they liked me so much, they invited me back to work there during all my breaks, winter and summer, for the next 3 years. I was making a decent salary, much more than a typical student job, such that I didn't have to work part-time during the semester. I think that's why I kept going back.  Summer after my junior year, I had taken advanced statistics and math so they had me doing even more technical work and analysis.  Halfway through that summer, the project I had been working was really turning into their main project, and they realized that I would be gone soon so they decided to hire a full time employee to take over. 

The new hire, Jane, had just graduated with her B.A. degree in the education field. It became apparent that my new role was to train Jane, which I did.  Basically, she was doing my exact job and not that well, I may add.  I was constantly having to go back over things and fix her mistakes. Her response was always "oh that's just a little error, it doesn't really matter"  and "why do you have to be so picky about details?"  Frustrating, but I always made sure everything was eventually corrected. 

One day, though, after a particularly annoying session with her and her mistakes, she blurted out that she wasn't all that interested in this job, it was too much attention to detail, too much computer work, and they were *only* paying her $X........of course, I was stunned because it was almost twice as much as they were paying me....and we were doing the exact same job.  Actually I was doing a large chunk of hers as well as mine.

When I asked my direct boss about it ( I had never even been given a raise in all the time I worked there), she laughed at me like I was the most naive girl on the planet.  "Of course she is paid more than you.  Jane has a DEGREE.  That's the way the real working world works."

I finished that week but never went back.  I always thought I was kind of SS because I expected to get paid the same as the person that I was training.   Is it common to pay people with a degree more for the same job? 

PastryGoddess

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Re: Unwarrented Demands for Loyalty (Share stories)
« Reply #149 on: February 23, 2014, 12:21:47 AM »
Slightly OT.....a story about comparing salaries that happened a long long time ago...

When I was home for the summer after my first year of college I landed a very nice summer job working for a company that did evaluations of educational curricula and special programs for K-12 schools.  At first all I was doing was data entry, but I learned quickly and started doing more and more analysis of the data, graphs, compiling reports.  Because they liked me so much, they invited me back to work there during all my breaks, winter and summer, for the next 3 years. I was making a decent salary, much more than a typical student job, such that I didn't have to work part-time during the semester. I think that's why I kept going back.  Summer after my junior year, I had taken advanced statistics and math so they had me doing even more technical work and analysis.  Halfway through that summer, the project I had been working was really turning into their main project, and they realized that I would be gone soon so they decided to hire a full time employee to take over. 

The new hire, Jane, had just graduated with her B.A. degree in the education field. It became apparent that my new role was to train Jane, which I did.  Basically, she was doing my exact job and not that well, I may add.  I was constantly having to go back over things and fix her mistakes. Her response was always "oh that's just a little error, it doesn't really matter"  and "why do you have to be so picky about details?"  Frustrating, but I always made sure everything was eventually corrected. 

One day, though, after a particularly annoying session with her and her mistakes, she blurted out that she wasn't all that interested in this job, it was too much attention to detail, too much computer work, and they were *only* paying her $X........of course, I was stunned because it was almost twice as much as they were paying me....and we were doing the exact same job.  Actually I was doing a large chunk of hers as well as mine.

When I asked my direct boss about it ( I had never even been given a raise in all the time I worked there), she laughed at me like I was the most naive girl on the planet.  "Of course she is paid more than you.  Jane has a DEGREE.  That's the way the real working world works."

I finished that week but never went back.  I always thought I was kind of SS because I expected to get paid the same as the person that I was training.   Is it common to pay people with a degree more for the same job? 

In my experience, yes it is fairly common to pay an intern less money than a full time employee with a degree.  And while your exact job title may not have been intern, it's probably the closest to what you were doing.   You were not a full time employee, nor were you a traditional part time employee.  You were there for ~3 months in the summer and then ~4-6 weeks in the winter?  Who was doing what you were doing the rest of the year?  Were you the only person doing this type of job?

However, I agree that they were using you and your skills unfairly.  I would never give an employee such as yourself that type of project without having a pretty serious discussion about expectations, both salary and job wise.


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