Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.

[Ms_Cellany]

It is impossible to be married without having had a wedding.

[TurtleDove]

It is impossible to be married without having had a wedding.

Agreed.  It might not be a BWW, but it is a wedding.

[EllenS]

As a person with a binary (yes/no) concept of marriage myself. I get wanting to celebrate, and that's awesome. Celebrations are awesome. Call the celebration whatever you want, wear what you want, use whatever wording you want on the invite, but if I'm supposed to be close with somebody,  I want to know what's actually going on in their life. Like, their real life. It's hurtful to find out someone considers you merely an audience.

Secrets are wierd. If nobody's keeping secrets, then hey, that's not wierd.

But, my understanding of what "married" is, is like (if you'll pardon the associations) "pregnant" or "dead." Once you're married, you can't be "more" married. To me, that's kind of the point of the thing.  Either your life has changed, or it hasnt. And if we're not close enough for me to know when your life changes, then we're not close enough for you to invite me to your wedding.

[Ms_Cellany]

As a person with a binary (yes/no) concept of marriage myself. I get wanting to celebrate, and that's awesome. Celebrations are awesome. Call the celebration whatever you want, wear what you want, use whatever wording you want on the invite, but if I'm supposed to be close with somebody,  I want to know what's actually going on in their life. Like, their real life. It's hurtful to find out someone considers you merely an audience.

Secrets are weird. If nobody's keeping secrets, then hey, that's not wierd.

But, my understanding of what "married" is, is like (if you'll pardon the associations) "pregnant" or "dead." Once you're married, you can't be "more" married. To me, that's kind of the point of the thing.  Either your life has changed, or it hasnt. And if we're not close enough for me to know when your life changes, then we're not close enough for you to invite me to your wedding.

I think this sums it all up perfectly!

[mime]

As a person with a binary (yes/no) concept of marriage myself. I get wanting to celebrate, and that's awesome. Celebrations are awesome. Call the celebration whatever you want, wear what you want, use whatever wording you want on the invite, but if I'm supposed to be close with somebody,  I want to know what's actually going on in their life. Like, their real life. It's hurtful to find out someone considers you merely an audience.

Secrets are wierd. If nobody's keeping secrets, then hey, that's not wierd.

But, my understanding of what "married" is, is like (if you'll pardon the associations) "pregnant" or "dead." Once you're married, you can't be "more" married. To me, that's kind of the point of the thing.  Either your life has changed, or it hasnt. And if we're not close enough for me to know when your life changes, then we're not close enough for you to invite me to your wedding.

So if a couple has been committed to each other and living together but no wedding of any form has taken place, then they get married (legally or not), nothing has really changed in their lives. Is it wrong to have a big celebration then?

What if a couple does the paperwork but doesn't start living together until after a traditional ceremony? Is the life-change in their relationship or the life-change in their insurance benefits and such the one worth celebrating?

[Ms_Cellany]

As a person with a binary (yes/no) concept of marriage myself. I get wanting to celebrate, and that's awesome. Celebrations are awesome. Call the celebration whatever you want, wear what you want, use whatever wording you want on the invite, but if I'm supposed to be close with somebody,  I want to know what's actually going on in their life. Like, their real life. It's hurtful to find out someone considers you merely an audience.

Secrets are wierd. If nobody's keeping secrets, then hey, that's not wierd.

But, my understanding of what "married" is, is like (if you'll pardon the associations) "pregnant" or "dead." Once you're married, you can't be "more" married. To me, that's kind of the point of the thing.  Either your life has changed, or it hasnt. And if we're not close enough for me to know when your life changes, then we're not close enough for you to invite me to your wedding.

So if a couple has been committed to each other and living together but no wedding of any form has taken place, then they get married (legally or not), nothing has really changed in their lives. Is it wrong to have a big celebration then?

What if a couple does the paperwork but doesn't start living together until after a traditional ceremony? Is the life-change in their relationship or the life-change in their insurance benefits and such the one worth celebrating?

They decide what's worth celebrating. I think what most people here are saying is that they should be honest about what the celebration is for.

[EllenS]

So if a couple has been committed to each other and living together but no wedding of any form has taken place, then they get married (legally or not), nothing has really changed in their lives. Is it wrong to have a big celebration then?

What if a couple does the paperwork but doesn't start living together until after a traditional ceremony? Is the life-change in their relationship or the life-change in their insurance benefits and such the one worth celebrating?

Are they secretly living together? As in, they invited a whole bunch of people to their wedding - who don't know where they live?
 If you don't get why that is wierd, I wouldn't even know how to start explaining it.

[whatsanenigma]

As a person with a binary (yes/no) concept of marriage myself. I get wanting to celebrate, and that's awesome. Celebrations are awesome. Call the celebration whatever you want, wear what you want, use whatever wording you want on the invite, but if I'm supposed to be close with somebody,  I want to know what's actually going on in their life. Like, their real life. It's hurtful to find out someone considers you merely an audience.

Secrets are wierd. If nobody's keeping secrets, then hey, that's not wierd.

But, my understanding of what "married" is, is like (if you'll pardon the associations) "pregnant" or "dead." Once you're married, you can't be "more" married. To me, that's kind of the point of the thing.  Either your life has changed, or it hasnt. And if we're not close enough for me to know when your life changes, then we're not close enough for you to invite me to your wedding.

So if a couple has been committed to each other and living together but no wedding of any form has taken place, then they get married (legally or not), nothing has really changed in their lives. Is it wrong to have a big celebration then?

What if a couple does the paperwork but doesn't start living together until after a traditional ceremony? Is the life-change in their relationship or the life-change in their insurance benefits and such the one worth celebrating?

They decide what's worth celebrating. I think what most people here are saying is that they should be honest about what the celebration is for.

That is my opinion also.  Just be honest, is what I would hope people would do.  I don't begrudge anyone an all-out ceremony with white dress and attendants and all the elaborate things, if that's what they want., even if for some reason the legal ceremony took place earlier.  But just call it what it is.  A vow renewal, or a celebration of the marriage, or whatever feels meaningful.

[Cz. Burrito]

But what about a 'wedding'?   Maybe they just don't get one? Maybe the rush something together in a few days?

Pros: Traditional etiquette is satisfied.

Cons: Parents, siblings, friends and family are saddened and disappointed to miss out on an event that they may have been happily anticipating. 

When I line it up like that - for me it's an easy decision.  Get the license and legal stuff done, have a Wedding later with the friends and family who love you and want to support you.  I'd rather have Emily Post wag her finger at me than deal with my Father's heartache that he'll never walk me down the aisle.

You are leaving out the option that several of us are advocating:  Have the BWC (big white celebration) but call it what it is - a celebration of a marriage that already exists.  Everyone wins.

I don't think a template for that exists in wedding catalogs.  I suppose you could make something up ( "You are invited to celebrate the marriage of B & G, which occurred on MM/DD/YYYY but is being honored on MM/DD/YYYY" ) but I think you are probably going to get a bunch of confused calls from guests who now have no idea what they are being invited to attend.  ("Oh, it's your _wedding_!  Well why didn't you just _say_ so!')

I'm very lazy, personally, and tend to go the easiest route.  Everyone knows what a wedding is, I'm throwing what to all intents and purpose is a wedding, why make up a whole new and different category of things to satisfy Miss Post?

I had a party after my wedding to celebrate with my family. The wedding itself was very small. The party was about three weeks later and everybody knew that it was a reception, not a wedding. The phrasing on the invites was clear.  It was something like "you're invited to a reception to celebrate the marriage of  _____&______."

[GlitterIsMyDrug]

So I'm turning this over in my brain and I think it might boil down to know your audience.

My audience, the people I'm inviting to my wedding, I can't imagine caring. Most of them haven't done things traditionally in their lives. All of them know, what they are seeing isn't going to legal. Because it can't be in our state. In less something changes in the next year (which is possible, but not probable). So they'll know were gonna sign the dotted line at some other point. Though, in case anyone wanted to know, I love the photo of the couple signing their marriage license so we're going to sign a copy of our vows or something similar so we can get the shot. So we will be signing something that day.

As for secrets. I learned a very long time ago keeping secrets from people you love, who love you back, is just a mess. It's best to be honest. However, I also learned, sometimes it's smart to keep your mouth shut. Which is where we fall. It's not a secret. If you ask "Did you guys get married while you were in California?" we'll say yes, we got all legal out there. But our Facebook status still says we're engaged and we still refer to each other as fiance or as us being engaged. Some people know, some people don't, most don't seem to care.

We actually had a long talk about updating our status on Facebook (yes, it was an actual conversation) and Partner put it perfectly when she said she felt like we were "half married", we're half way there. And well Facebook doesn't provide that option. That's how I think of us. Half married.

Now that doesn't track for everyone. And that's fine. But I think it's important to acknowledge, everyone feels differently about defining what is and isn't marriage. And really, I feel like that's only up to the couple to define. For some people, if you aren't married in a church, you aren't "really married". Well that doesn't track for me. But that doesn't make those people wrong when discussing their own relationships. It's their relationship and they can use whatever language they like.

I will say since we've gotten legalled, I rarely refer to Partner as my girlfriend anymore. She's my life partner now. It's not a conscious effort on my part, but some how the vow of taking her as my "life partner" stuck in my brain. I even have introduced her as "This is my life partner Partner" (and that sentence sounds less weird with her real name and not Partner in there).

[Tea Drinker]

It is impossible to be married without having had a wedding.

It's difficult, these days, but not impossible. There are still places that recognize common law marriage, meaning that if a couple present themselves as married--living together and referring to each other as "husband" and "wife" are big parts of that--they are married as far as the state is concerned, and presumably as far as they are concerned (since they are calling themselves married), even though they never got a marriage license or took any sort of formal vows, and can't say "we got married on thus-and-such-a-date" or at a specific location.

Now that it's fairly easy to get to either a member of the clergy or city/town hall, not a lot of people do it that way, but it's still possible.

[LtPowers]

I don't think disagreeing on that point has to be a problem, though. Why can't we let every couple decide according to their own beliefs and customs what act constitutes their real marriage, rather than trying to re-cast it all according to your (general "your") own beliefs?

Because, like it or not, marriage is not a purely personal construct.  It is a societal construct.  Society has set up rules regarding who can be married and who can't, and what needs to be done for the marriage to be official.  (These rules do vary based on jurisdiction and for certain religious groups, but the important thing is simply that there are rules.)  As such, a wedding is not just about two people.  It's about those two people declaring to the rest of society that they are a unit.  And the way that declaration is made is via certain official forms and ceremonies and regulations.

So you get a quicky ceremony down at the city hall so that you can file joint taxes/get health insurance/immigrate?  Great, you're married.  If you want to say you're not married (yet), you're still just engaged, but you wanted to get the benefits of legal recognition... that's kinda cheating.  You signed the paperwork saying you're getting married.  You took vows promising all the things that people promise to do in a marriage.  You obtain from society all of the benefits we've set up for married couples.  It's unfair to then turn around and say "Well, we aren't really married yet."


Powers  &8^]

[EllenS]

I think one of the fundamental purposes of marriage, is making the private relationship public "property" in some way. You have, for whatever reasons/benefits/feelings/motivations, made your relationship public knowledge and (to some extent) other people's business. In return you are treated as a social/legal unit.

There is a point (and it's not a bright line, but there is some reasonable period of time) at which pretending you are not married, when you really are, (or pretending you are married when you are not) becomes wierd and starts to impact your relationships with other people.  To see it from the other end, look at situations where people are separated or divorced and try to pretend to still be a family in certain situations, like the holidays. It's terribly uncomfortable for everyone because it's a split from reality.

[kareng57]

Overall - I figure that you can't have it both ways.  IMO you can't figure that you're "married enough" to share health insurance, satisfy immigration issues etc. but "not married enough" because there wasn't a BWW.  Either you were married, or you weren't.  And like some PPs, I am fine with having a big celebration some time after the legal papers, but it shouldn't be misrepresented as the initial ceremony.

[mime]

So if a couple has been committed to each other and living together but no wedding of any form has taken place, then they get married (legally or not), nothing has really changed in their lives. Is it wrong to have a big celebration then?

What if a couple does the paperwork but doesn't start living together until after a traditional ceremony? Is the life-change in their relationship or the life-change in their insurance benefits and such the one worth celebrating?

Are they secretly living together? As in, they invited a whole bunch of people to their wedding - who don't know where they live?
 If you don't get why that is wierd, I wouldn't even know how to start explaining it.

No secrets.

In one case a couple isn't living together until after thier traditional ceremony, regardless of when paperwork happens.

In the other case, a couple is living together well before any of that takes place.



I knew that all of us would never come to an agreement on the definition of marriage (and there's no need to). I see now that we cannot even reach a mutual understanding that those different definitions exist, or should even be tolerated.

I guess that's just how it goes sometimes!