Author Topic: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.  (Read 11752 times)

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wolfie

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2014, 05:12:33 PM »
A couple did that to me once. I admit that I felt betrayed somehow.



Just to give another POV, it's happened to me twice and I didn't care a whit!  Practical considerations sometimes take over ( one couple was at risk of being deported, the other was at risk of getting less-than-adequate medical care due to insurance issues )  and I didn't have any desire to deny them a nice wedding ceremony because of issues that could be solved by a 'piece of paper'.

This is how I feel about it to.  It's been discussed so many times on this board and I still can't understand why anyone cares.

I'm parking my POD here. I just honestly don't care when/if someone fills out legal paperwork. If I'm watching a commitment be made, then that's what I'm doing. The legal stuff is their business.

Because they are lying to me. If they tell me that they are recommitting themselves then great! I am there. But if they say the are getting married and then I find out that they actually got married a year ago and this is a recommitment ceremony I feel hurt that they think they need to lie to me to get me there and then I start to wonder what else they are lying about.

mime

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2014, 05:30:51 PM »
We seem to go around in circles about this. Some people define marriage by the legal/contractual aspects. Other people define it by the commitment in a faith-based ceremony, or other ritual.

If someone holds a different definition of marriage than you, it doesn't mean they are lying. They are operating and communicating according to their own beliefs about the relationship.

I'll celebrate a wedding ceremony with a couple by whatever standard they measure the term. I may not hold that same standard, but my opinion doesn't matter.


wolfie

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2014, 05:34:47 PM »
We seem to go around in circles about this. Some people define marriage by the legal/contractual aspects. Other people define it by the commitment in a faith-based ceremony, or other ritual.

If someone holds a different definition of marriage than you, it doesn't mean they are lying. They are operating and communicating according to their own beliefs about the relationship.

I'll celebrate a wedding ceremony with a couple by whatever standard they measure the term. I may not hold that same standard, but my opinion doesn't matter.

I don't understand why the couple can't be upfront and honest about what is actually happening. If they know that the majority of people think that when they say "please come to our wedding" they are assuming that this is the legal and faith based ceremony (which is the default understanding) then why don't they say "please come to our faith based commitment ceremony". Then there are no misunderstandings at all. But the fact that they plan on not telling anyone that the legal ceremony is already done makes me think that they know that people are expecting it to be the legal ceremony and they don't want to deal with whatever they think will happen if people know it isn't that ceremony afterall.

TurtleDove

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2014, 05:55:37 PM »
I would happily celebrate any coupling, but I find it strange to not just be honest. "Please come celebrate our marriage!" instead of "come watch us get married." If I am happy for a couple I am not going to accuse them of lying to me or being dishonest people, but I would just find it weird to not just say what is being celebrated.

GlitterIsMyDrug

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2014, 06:19:47 PM »
Why use the word wedding? Because, you want too. It's a nice word. It's what I've always wanted to have.

To me it's a question of when did they fill out paperwork. I just watched my best friend marry the man he loves. In beautiful wedding. Sometime this summer (when they have time off from work) they'll be going to California. Where they will receive a marriage license. But what they just had. That was the wedding.

Another friend got married 8 years ago in England so her citizenship would be easier to handle. She got married in November by her minister. She'd always said she was married. But now she got to have the wedding.

Honestly, I don't give a hoot what you call your shindig. I don't care when you fill out the paper work. Come to our wedding, tells me exactly whats going to happen. You and partner(s) are going to stand up in front of people with some kind of officiant, say vows, maybe have a reading, you'll be pronounced as some kind of union and then we'll have a party. If you filed the legal stuff earlier/later doesn't change what happens on the wedding day.

Couple years ago Partner moved in and found I had no health insurance. I had a cough and was going with my "wait and see" method of dealing with health issues. Partner marched me down to an official city office and we registered as domestic partners. Then she put me on her health insurance as her domestic partner and I went to a doctor and found out I was really really sick. We had no celebration. For a long time no one knew. Actually it wasn't until my above referenced friend needed health insurance that I even brought up what we had done. Wasn't a secret, just wasn't something to share. I also didn't tell anyone when I added her as my beneficiary on my life insurance. Because no one would care. To me, our registering as domestic partners and someone getting married for health insurance are the same. Sometimes there is no way to wait to have a wedding that you want. And I don't think it's fair to say you have to give up having a wedding because other factors stand in the way.

turnip

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2014, 07:14:51 PM »
I won't quote but I agree with GlitterIsMyDrug.  Your "wedding" is your public commitment to each other in front of friends, family, and the officiant of your choosing.   If you want to also say that that's when you got "married", I'm fine with that too.  I've never asked to see the paperwork, I don't really care what is written on it.

LtPowers

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2014, 08:10:03 PM »
As far as modern American society is concerned, the "legal stuff" and "paperwork" is the wedding.  It's the only part that's required in order to constitute a valid marriage, and the only part that every marriage has in common.

It's one thing to have the legal ceremony a day or two before the formal or religious ceremony.  I understand that's standard in some countries, even required in some cases.  I don't think anyone would feel duped or have cause to object to that kind of thing.

But to have the legal ceremony, and then months or years later have another (invariably bigger) ceremony and call it your "wedding" is weird.  You're already married!  Period!


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mime

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2014, 10:57:14 AM »
As far as modern American society is concerned, the "legal stuff" and "paperwork" is the wedding.  It's the only part that's required in order to constitute a valid marriage, and the only part that every marriage has in common.

It's one thing to have the legal ceremony a day or two before the formal or religious ceremony.  I understand that's standard in some countries, even required in some cases.  I don't think anyone would feel duped or have cause to object to that kind of thing.

But to have the legal ceremony, and then months or years later have another (invariably bigger) ceremony and call it your "wedding" is weird.  You're already married!  Period!


Powers  &8^]


That is not how everyone regards it. It is also not the norm among my family and friends. Maybe we're in the minority, but we are as much a part of modern American society as anyone else living here.

The "legal stuff" and "paperwork" is basically filing for joint treatment and benefits. It is not the "wedding". I know of several *real* marriages without it. Some could have the paperwork if they wanted, other's can't. Calling those marriages invalid because they haven't signed government forms is a bit insulting.

In a way, I want to say that this is a difference between "legal marriage" and "spiritual marriage" (I'm struggling for the right adjectives-- I know that "spiritual" isn't quite what I'm looking for, but it's the best I have right now). It seems in this discussion that we all find only one of those is real/necessary/relevant. We just don't agree on which one it is.

I don't think disagreeing on that point has to be a problem, though. Why can't we let every couple decide according to their own beliefs and customs what act constitutes their real marriage, rather than trying to re-cast it all according to your (general "your") own beliefs?

I know that it is difficult to convey tone in typed messages. Please read my response not as an argument, but just trying to explain my POV and gain understanding. I admit that I am a bit defensive of my faith-based beliefs and the relationships of some dear friends who are married, just without paperwork.  :-\

ladyknight1

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2014, 11:03:28 AM »
I would not consider this a wedding if they were already married.

Fleur

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2014, 11:13:18 AM »


I agree with Turnip and Glitter, I don't see this as a big deal at all and it wouldn't make me think any less of a couple.

wolfie

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2014, 11:15:13 AM »
As far as modern American society is concerned, the "legal stuff" and "paperwork" is the wedding.  It's the only part that's required in order to constitute a valid marriage, and the only part that every marriage has in common.

It's one thing to have the legal ceremony a day or two before the formal or religious ceremony.  I understand that's standard in some countries, even required in some cases.  I don't think anyone would feel duped or have cause to object to that kind of thing.

But to have the legal ceremony, and then months or years later have another (invariably bigger) ceremony and call it your "wedding" is weird.  You're already married!  Period!


Powers  &8^]


That is not how everyone regards it. It is also not the norm among my family and friends. Maybe we're in the minority, but we are as much a part of modern American society as anyone else living here.

The "legal stuff" and "paperwork" is basically filing for joint treatment and benefits. It is not the "wedding". I know of several *real* marriages without it. Some could have the paperwork if they wanted, other's can't. Calling those marriages invalid because they haven't signed government forms is a bit insulting.

In a way, I want to say that this is a difference between "legal marriage" and "spiritual marriage" (I'm struggling for the right adjectives-- I know that "spiritual" isn't quite what I'm looking for, but it's the best I have right now). It seems in this discussion that we all find only one of those is real/necessary/relevant. We just don't agree on which one it is.

I don't think disagreeing on that point has to be a problem, though. Why can't we let every couple decide according to their own beliefs and customs what act constitutes their real marriage, rather than trying to re-cast it all according to your (general "your") own beliefs?

I know that it is difficult to convey tone in typed messages. Please read my response not as an argument, but just trying to explain my POV and gain understanding. I admit that I am a bit defensive of my faith-based beliefs and the relationships of some dear friends who are married, just without paperwork.  :-\

I think it is all well and good as long as people are upfront about what is happening. This is our spiritual wedding, the legal one happened already. This is the legal wedding, the spiritual one happened already. This is both the legal and spiritual wedding. This is just a party to celebrate - the legal and spiritual happened already.

I have to wonder at the people who are insisting that they are doing nothing anyone should disapprove of by separating those two things while refusing to let people know they did that. It makes me think that they know people would not react well to what they are doing. And that is what I have a problem with.

wolfie

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2014, 11:18:21 AM »
Why use the word wedding? Because, you want too. It's a nice word. It's what I've always wanted to have.

To me it's a question of when did they fill out paperwork. I just watched my best friend marry the man he loves. In beautiful wedding. Sometime this summer (when they have time off from work) they'll be going to California. Where they will receive a marriage license. But what they just had. That was the wedding.

Another friend got married 8 years ago in England so her citizenship would be easier to handle. She got married in November by her minister. She'd always said she was married. But now she got to have the wedding.

Honestly, I don't give a hoot what you call your shindig. I don't care when you fill out the paper work. Come to our wedding, tells me exactly whats going to happen. You and partner(s) are going to stand up in front of people with some kind of officiant, say vows, maybe have a reading, you'll be pronounced as some kind of union and then we'll have a party. If you filed the legal stuff earlier/later doesn't change what happens on the wedding day.

Couple years ago Partner moved in and found I had no health insurance. I had a cough and was going with my "wait and see" method of dealing with health issues. Partner marched me down to an official city office and we registered as domestic partners. Then she put me on her health insurance as her domestic partner and I went to a doctor and found out I was really really sick. We had no celebration. For a long time no one knew. Actually it wasn't until my above referenced friend needed health insurance that I even brought up what we had done. Wasn't a secret, just wasn't something to share. I also didn't tell anyone when I added her as my beneficiary on my life insurance. Because no one would care. To me, our registering as domestic partners and someone getting married for health insurance are the same. Sometimes there is no way to wait to have a wedding that you want. And I don't think it's fair to say you have to give up having a wedding because other factors stand in the way.

Life isn't fair. Sometimes you have to give up one thing you want for something else you want/need more. Not just weddings - maybe you need to move from your family for that job you really want. Or you can't go to the college you love because you got a full ride scholarship someplace else. It is what it is.  I have way more respect for someone who says "legally we got married last year for health insurance and this is our spiritual wedding" then someone who keeps quiet and hope noone finds out.

TurtleDove

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2014, 11:19:35 AM »
I admit that I am a bit defensive of my faith-based beliefs and the relationships of some dear friends who are married, just without paperwork.  :-\

As I said earlier, I personally will celebrate any coupling but I find it strange when people are not clear about what is happening.  I want to adopt your phrasing of "I am not being argumentative, just stating my point of view." 

For me, for example, I find it diminishes the purpose of fighting hard for legal gay marriage if the legal part means nothing and a person does not consider themselves married until they have a BWW in front of their friends and family.  (all yous general, of course)  If the legal part is important to you, then you are married when you sign the legal paperwork.  If you do not "consider yourself married" after signing the legal paperwork, then why was it important to fight for the right for gay people to legally marry? 

Again, I will happily celebrate any coupling, but I think it diminishes what was hard fought for to say that the legal part does not make a person actually married.

TurtleDove

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2014, 11:21:18 AM »
I think it is all well and good as long as people are upfront about what is happening. This is our spiritual wedding, the legal one happened already. This is the legal wedding, the spiritual one happened already. This is both the legal and spiritual wedding. This is just a party to celebrate - the legal and spiritual happened already.

I have to wonder at the people who are insisting that they are doing nothing anyone should disapprove of by separating those two things while refusing to let people know they did that. It makes me think that they know people would not react well to what they are doing. And that is what I have a problem with.

I should have scrolled before I posted - this states what I was trying to state much better.

wolfie

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2014, 11:21:59 AM »
I admit that I am a bit defensive of my faith-based beliefs and the relationships of some dear friends who are married, just without paperwork.  :-\

As I said earlier, I personally will celebrate any coupling but I find it strange when people are not clear about what is happening.  I want to adopt your phrasing of "I am not being argumentative, just stating my point of view." 

For me, for example, I find it diminishes the purpose of fighting hard for legal gay marriage if the legal part means nothing and a person does not consider themselves married until they have a BWW in front of their friends and family.  (all yous general, of course)  If the legal part is important to you, then you are married when you sign the legal paperwork.  If you do not "consider yourself married" after signing the legal paperwork, then why was it important to fight for the right for gay people to legally marry? 

Again, I will happily celebrate any coupling, but I think it diminishes what was hard fought for to say that the legal part does not make a person actually married.

you know - I never thought of that but that is a good point.