Author Topic: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.  (Read 12862 times)

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Mikayla

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2014, 11:39:44 AM »
I find it puzzling that people would say they don't care if they're lied to.  Words have definitions, and if you pass an event off as a wedding and that you're "getting married", this has a specific meaning.

I agree with comments that it's so easy for this to be exposed, whether through casual convos or even someone seeing a government or work form.  It just takes one person.

I want to know what I'm witnessing, and a legit wedding will always be more important to me than one that isn't, even when people are upfront about it.

TurtleDove

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2014, 11:46:09 AM »
I find it puzzling that people would say they don't care if they're lied to.  Words have definitions, and if you pass an event off as a wedding and that you're "getting married", this has a specific meaning.

I agree with comments that it's so easy for this to be exposed, whether through casual convos or even someone seeing a government or work form.  It just takes one person.

I want to know what I'm witnessing, and a legit wedding will always be more important to me than one that isn't, even when people are upfront about it.

I completely see where you are coming from, and I would agree for complete strangers.  For me, though, I tend to cut quite a bit of slack to people I care about, unless and until I find myself not liking them anymore because of all the slack I have had to cut them (if that makes sense). I guess what I mean is, if I genuinely like a person, the fact they do 1 or even 10 things I don't approve of is not going to make me not want them in my life.  I would imagine others cut me slack too - no one can please everyone 100% of the time!

So, for me, if I really like Amy and Sue, and I know they were legally married six months ago but are now inviting me to their "wedding" that is a BWW, I might roll my eyes and wonder why they are not just honest that they have already been married for six months and this is instead a celebration of their marriage.  But absent some reason for me to not be genuinely happy for them and their marriage I wouldn't boycott the "event" (for lack of a better term) or be outwardly negative about them because they "lied" to me and everyone else about what we are witnessing.  No, we are not seeing them "get married."  But to me, we are celebrating their marriage, and since I care about them, I am going to help them celebrate this.

auntmeegs

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2014, 12:28:57 PM »
I find it puzzling that people would say they don't care if they're lied to.  Words have definitions, and if you pass an event off as a wedding and that you're "getting married", this has a specific meaning.

I agree with comments that it's so easy for this to be exposed, whether through casual convos or even someone seeing a government or work form.  It just takes one person.

I want to know what I'm witnessing, and a legit wedding will always be more important to me than one that isn't, even when people are upfront about it.

Whereas I don't really care exactly what I'm witnessing, because its not about me, I care about what the couple considers to be the actual important milestone of the marriage. 

turnip

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2014, 12:31:56 PM »
I find it puzzling that people would say they don't care if they're lied to.  Words have definitions, and if you pass an event off as a wedding and that you're "getting married", this has a specific meaning.

...

No one has said that and I find this kind of phrasing quickly throws a conversation off the rails.  The definitions of words change constantly and I know some people find this troubling ( witness all the angst over 'literally' e.g., "I literally died when I heard that" ) but it is still an undeniable truth.   If you are going to throw a party, make a public declaration of your commitment, and invite me, and call it a wedding, that's OK by me. 

A piece of paper is clearly important - but ( IMO ) only to the couple involved.  If they already have one or are planning on getting one later when available or never planning on getting one at all, it is really not my business.

mime

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2014, 12:44:15 PM »
I admit that I am a bit defensive of my faith-based beliefs and the relationships of some dear friends who are married, just without paperwork.  :-\

As I said earlier, I personally will celebrate any coupling but I find it strange when people are not clear about what is happening.  I want to adopt your phrasing of "I am not being argumentative, just stating my point of view." 

For me, for example, I find it diminishes the purpose of fighting hard for legal gay marriage if the legal part means nothing and a person does not consider themselves married until they have a BWW in front of their friends and family.  (all yous general, of course)  If the legal part is important to you, then you are married when you sign the legal paperwork.  If you do not "consider yourself married" after signing the legal paperwork, then why was it important to fight for the right for gay people to legally marry? 

Again, I will happily celebrate any coupling, but I think it diminishes what was hard fought for to say that the legal part does not make a person actually married.

Here's my take on the efforts to allow same sex marriage.

For some people, the legal paperwork is the wedding. They fight for the right because that is the only way in their eyes they can get married. Not my belief/POV, but I can appreciate it.

For others, the legal paperwork gets them the benefits. Some employers won't extend benefits to a non-legal spouse. Social Security, inhertitance, property rights, etc. are granted and calculated according to the presence of the government paperwork. Personally I don't consider it to be the 'real' marriage, but that paperwork gives DH and myself some good shared benefits. For a same sex couple, getting that same treatment is in itself worth fighting for, regardless of what you label it.


TurtleDove

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2014, 12:57:35 PM »
For a same sex couple, getting that same treatment is in itself worth fighting for, regardless of what you label it.

I don't necessarily disagree that all people should have the same benefits available, but then in my opinion that isn't "marriage."  Anyway, we digress.  :)

lowspark

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2014, 12:57:56 PM »
If you do not "consider yourself married" after signing the legal paperwork, then why was it important to fight for the right for gay people to legally marry? 

I'm on the side of the couple going ahead and stating clearly what is happening. They can call it anything they want but it ought to be clear if it's a celebration of an event that has already occurred.

However, I think the answer to your question is that what gay people are seeking are the benefits related with being legally married. Legal benefits, employee benefits, next of kin benefits, etc. And I can completely understand wanting those benefits while still saying that the actual meaningful moment is when they stand up in front of friends and family and make vows.

Just because the legal part isn't the most meaningful doesn't mean it's not important. If it did, then why bother to do a legal ceremony if you do a religious one?

TurtleDove

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2014, 01:03:01 PM »
I think for me I struggle to understand the following situation.  Amy and Sue are legally married on January 15.  They have a BWW July 15 and say that is when they got married.  What were they for the previous six months?

Again, I will happily celebrate the BWW with them....but I will consider it strange that they are calling it a wedding when they have already been married for six months.

Mikayla

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #38 on: April 10, 2014, 01:17:23 PM »
I find it puzzling that people would say they don't care if they're lied to.  Words have definitions, and if you pass an event off as a wedding and that you're "getting married", this has a specific meaning.

I agree with comments that it's so easy for this to be exposed, whether through casual convos or even someone seeing a government or work form.  It just takes one person.

I want to know what I'm witnessing, and a legit wedding will always be more important to me than one that isn't, even when people are upfront about it.

Whereas I don't really care exactly what I'm witnessing, because its not about me, I care about what the couple considers to be the actual important milestone of the marriage.

It's a little unfair to imply that I'm making it "about me" when I just want to know what's happening at this event.  Besides, if they consider it the important milestone, why would they lie about it?  (It's a lie by omission if they "forget" to tell friends and family they're married).

Also, @Turtle Dove, when you brought up Amy and Sue, you reminded me I should have mentioned gay/lesbian ceremonies.  I've been to one of each and to me this is totally different. 

I find it puzzling that people would say  they don't care if they're lied to.  Words have definitions, and if you pass an event off as a wedding and that you're "getting married", this has a specific meaning.

...

No one has said that and I find this kind of phrasing quickly throws a conversation off the rails. The definitions of words change constantly and I know some people find this troubling ( witness all the angst over 'literally' e.g., "I literally died when I heard that" ) but it is still an undeniable truth.   If you are going to throw a party, make a public declaration of your commitment, and invite me, and call it a wedding, that's OK by me. 

A piece of paper is clearly important - but ( IMO ) only to the couple involved.  If they already have one or are planning on getting one later when available or never planning on getting one at all, it is really not my business.

On the bolded, why would my comment throw the conversation off its rails?  We're talking about 2 separate issues.  If a couple thinks the piece of paper is meaningless, fine.  I'd never agree with this, since becoming legally married isn't like like signing a  credit slip.  But that's their right.

The issue of hiding it from others is not fine by me.  If I'm close enough to someone to be invited to their wedding, yet they never bothered telling me they're a married couple....yes, I call this a lie. 

If someone threw a graduation party and I later learned they had never graduated, I would call this the same kind of lie. 

TurtleDove

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2014, 01:19:36 PM »
If a couple thinks the piece of paper is meaningless, fine.  I'd never agree with this, since becoming legally married isn't like like signing a  credit slip.  But that's their right.

The issue of hiding it from others is not fine by me.  If I'm close enough to someone to be invited to their wedding, yet they never bothered telling me they're a married couple....yes, I call this a lie. 

If someone threw a graduation party and I later learned they had never graduated, I would call this the same kind of lie.

This I agree with, although I would still celebrate with the couple.

turnip

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2014, 01:23:07 PM »
I think for me I struggle to understand the following situation.  Amy and Sue are legally married on January 15.  They have a BWW July 15 and say that is when they got married.  What were they for the previous six months?

You'd probably have to ask them.   Is it important that they have a clear label?  Sometimes we just don't have a good word for a situation but that doesn't invalidate the situation in some way.

Quote
Again, I will happily celebrate the BWW with them....but I will consider it strange that they are calling it a wedding when they have already been married for six months.

I don't consider it strange at all.    It's just an evolving state.   The reasons to get/not get a piece of paper are often legal or financial.   The reasons to have a wedding are often social.

So as an example.  Our HC is living together, happy together, planing a future together, but for one reason or another haven't gotten around to getting married yet.

Then a test result comes back and it's a bad one.  Out of the blue, everything changes, priorities shift, lives are never the same.

So the HC realizes that if they are legally wed, soon, then they can solve a lot of problems and potentially save a life.  Easy decision.

But what about a 'wedding'?   Maybe they just don't get one? Maybe the rush something together in a few days?

Pros: Traditional etiquette is satisfied.

Cons: Parents, siblings, friends and family are saddened and disappointed to miss out on an event that they may have been happily anticipating. 

When I line it up like that - for me it's an easy decision.  Get the license and legal stuff done, have a Wedding later with the friends and family who love you and want to support you.  I'd rather have Emily Post wag her finger at me than deal with my Father's heartache that he'll never walk me down the aisle.


TurtleDove

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2014, 01:25:55 PM »
But what about a 'wedding'?   Maybe they just don't get one? Maybe the rush something together in a few days?

Pros: Traditional etiquette is satisfied.

Cons: Parents, siblings, friends and family are saddened and disappointed to miss out on an event that they may have been happily anticipating. 

When I line it up like that - for me it's an easy decision.  Get the license and legal stuff done, have a Wedding later with the friends and family who love you and want to support you.  I'd rather have Emily Post wag her finger at me than deal with my Father's heartache that he'll never walk me down the aisle.

You are leaving out the option that several of us are advocating:  Have the BWC (big white celebration) but call it what it is - a celebration of a marriage that already exists.  Everyone wins.

turnip

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #42 on: April 10, 2014, 01:32:41 PM »
But what about a 'wedding'?   Maybe they just don't get one? Maybe the rush something together in a few days?

Pros: Traditional etiquette is satisfied.

Cons: Parents, siblings, friends and family are saddened and disappointed to miss out on an event that they may have been happily anticipating. 

When I line it up like that - for me it's an easy decision.  Get the license and legal stuff done, have a Wedding later with the friends and family who love you and want to support you.  I'd rather have Emily Post wag her finger at me than deal with my Father's heartache that he'll never walk me down the aisle.

You are leaving out the option that several of us are advocating:  Have the BWC (big white celebration) but call it what it is - a celebration of a marriage that already exists.  Everyone wins.

I don't think a template for that exists in wedding catalogs.  I suppose you could make something up ( "You are invited to celebrate the marriage of B & G, which occurred on MM/DD/YYYY but is being honored on MM/DD/YYYY" ) but I think you are probably going to get a bunch of confused calls from guests who now have no idea what they are being invited to attend.  ("Oh, it's your _wedding_!  Well why didn't you just _say_ so!')

I'm very lazy, personally, and tend to go the easiest route.  Everyone knows what a wedding is, I'm throwing what to all intents and purpose is a wedding, why make up a whole new and different category of things to satisfy Miss Post?

TurtleDove

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #43 on: April 10, 2014, 01:37:55 PM »
I don't really do anything in my life to satisfy Ms. Post!  But when I eloped and had a solemnization of vows and reception six months later, everyone knew that is what happened - that I was married on x date and they were invited to the solemnization and celebration on y date.  I don't recall the specific wording, but it wasn't a difficult thing and no one was confused, at least to my knowledge.  I feel like it was something like:

TurtleDove and FirstHusband,
along with their parents,
invite you to witness the soleminization of their marriage vows taken on x/xx/xx

Solemnization Ceremony will be at 4:00 pm on y/yy/yy
at ABC Church
Dinner, Dancing and Reception to follow at XYC Location

EllenS

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #44 on: April 10, 2014, 02:07:47 PM »
What it comes down to for me, is manipulation.  If I am close enough to someone to be invited to a wedding, am I not close enough to know when they go through major life milestones? Regardless of whether the religious or social aspects of a wedding are more emotionally meaningful than the legal benefits, there is a difference between "not making a big deal about something" and doing it in secret.

If I am already aware that two people are married - as a pp mentioned - and they invite me to their BWW, I dont' care what they call it and I will go. But if someone is actively concealing the fact that they are legally married, I have to ask, why? What are you trying to get me to do, that you think I would not do if I knew the truth?

This actually happened to me about 8-9 years ago. DH's family was all raised in, and adheres with varying degrees of commitment to, the same faith tradition. There is definitely a common understanding about weddings/marriages and the importance and traditions thereof.  They LOVE weddings. Everyone will travel hundreds or even thousands of miles to attend a family wedding, and they are often used as de facto family reunions.

They also have a binary view of marriage. There is no concept of being legally married as something separate from "married in the eyes of Diety" or "in the eyes of the Church", or anything like that. You are or you aren't. Regardless of what an individual couple may feel, in this family this is a well-established understanding to 50% of the guest list.

DH and I were invited to Cousin N's wedding, several states away. It was a big trip, we ordered a nice gift to be sent to their registry address, and went. Everyone very happy and excited.

At some point during the ceremony, we all realized that the officiant was not administering vows. He was, instead, twisting the words of the traditional religious ceremony to be a blessing of the vows which the HC had already exchanged. "HUH?" The family is looking at each other in extreme confusion. The bride is furious, glaring at the officiant.

They stop the ceremony and the groom takes the officiant aside. When they return, they finish the ceremony, with the officiant giving pointed looks at the HC, and great emphasis on the words, "DID you promise..." I thought the bride was going to throw down her bouquet and strangle him.

I have no idea what went down with the officiant, whether they lied to him about already being married and he found out at the last moment, or whether he intended to do a fake wedding and backed out.  Come to find out afterward, HC had been married for over a year and kept it a secret from the entire family. I'm not even sure if the bride's parents who footed the bill knew, possibly they did.

Ultimately, it was so senseless because if they had just announced that they eloped, everyone would have sent the same presents a year earlier, and if they threw a postdated reception everyone or nearly everyone would have come anyway. And instead of having a fun party, they spent the whole time being mad and embarassed because they were lying and got exposed.

We used to think of Cousin N as "fun and flaky Cousin that we wish we saw more often". Now we think of her as bizarre manipulative lying Cousin, who we are happy to see less of.
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