Author Topic: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.  (Read 12988 times)

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TurtleDove

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #45 on: April 10, 2014, 02:14:06 PM »
That reminds me....my "vows" at my solemnization were similar to what EllenS described: "Did you take this man...." etc. and "I did," or "we have" (or whatever made sense but clearly referring back to vows we had already taken but were reaffirming before our friends and family.  No one was shocked because they were expecting this - they were happy about our marriage and wanted to celebrate the marriage, but understood we had already been married for six months.

auntmeegs

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #46 on: April 10, 2014, 02:52:16 PM »
I find it puzzling that people would say they don't care if they're lied to.  Words have definitions, and if you pass an event off as a wedding and that you're "getting married", this has a specific meaning.

I agree with comments that it's so easy for this to be exposed, whether through casual convos or even someone seeing a government or work form.  It just takes one person.

I want to know what I'm witnessing, and a legit wedding will always be more important to me than one that isn't, even when people are upfront about it.

Whereas I don't really care exactly what I'm witnessing, because its not about me, I care about what the couple considers to be the actual important milestone of the marriage.

It's a little unfair to imply that I'm making it "about me" when I just want to know what's happening at this event.  Besides, if they consider it the important milestone, why would they lie about it?  (It's a lie by omission if they "forget" to tell friends and family they're married).Also, @Turtle Dove, when you brought up Amy and Sue, you reminded me I should have mentioned gay/lesbian ceremonies.  I've been to one of each and to me this is totally different. 

I find it puzzling that people would say  they don't care if they're lied to.  Words have definitions, and if you pass an event off as a wedding and that you're "getting married", this has a specific meaning.

...

No one has said that and I find this kind of phrasing quickly throws a conversation off the rails. The definitions of words change constantly and I know some people find this troubling ( witness all the angst over 'literally' e.g., "I literally died when I heard that" ) but it is still an undeniable truth.   If you are going to throw a party, make a public declaration of your commitment, and invite me, and call it a wedding, that's OK by me. 

A piece of paper is clearly important - but ( IMO ) only to the couple involved.  If they already have one or are planning on getting one later when available or never planning on getting one at all, it is really not my business.

On the bolded, why would my comment throw the conversation off its rails?  We're talking about 2 separate issues.  If a couple thinks the piece of paper is meaningless, fine.  I'd never agree with this, since becoming legally married isn't like like signing a  credit slip.  But that's their right.

The issue of hiding it from others is not fine by me.  If I'm close enough to someone to be invited to their wedding, yet they never bothered telling me they're a married couple....yes, I call this a lie. 

If someone threw a graduation party and I later learned they had never graduated, I would call this the same kind of lie.

I didn't mean to imply that you were making it about you.  I was just explaining how I view the situation. 
They probably don’t view it as lying and I wouldn’t either. 

Redneck Gravy

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #47 on: April 10, 2014, 03:10:07 PM »
I would view it as a "misrepresentation of the truth" also. 

I consider wedding vows to mean something significant and if the couple were already married and lied about it to have their BWW then I consider that a big whopper.  Now if they called it a reenactment, celebration, reception, or whatever then I'm on board with it - but trying to cover it up is just deceitful. IMO

I am going to a BWW in a couple of weeks where the couple got married at the JP's when there was a sudden health issue and insurance became a major concern.  They are trying to pull one over on their guests and while I don't approve, I'm still going because it is important to their parents for me to share this day with them and they asked for my attendance.

   

ladyknight1

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #48 on: April 10, 2014, 03:16:06 PM »
I am an honest and forthright person. I expect friends and family to be as well. If I were invited to a wedding that turned out to be something other than a wedding, I would not be very happy and would have to evaluate the relationship.

IMO, a wedding is a wedding in the US. I know in other places, there has to be separate civil and spiritual ceremonies because the spiritual wedding is not recognized by law. That is different.

I would celebrate a wedding reception held after the fact at the same level as a wedding.

Fleur

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #49 on: April 10, 2014, 03:42:42 PM »
What it comes down to for me, is manipulation.  If I am close enough to someone to be invited to a wedding, am I not close enough to know when they go through major life milestones? Regardless of whether the religious or social aspects of a wedding are more emotionally meaningful than the legal benefits, there is a difference between "not making a big deal about something" and doing it in secret.

If I am already aware that two people are married - as a pp mentioned - and they invite me to their BWW, I dont' care what they call it and I will go. But if someone is actively concealing the fact that they are legally married, I have to ask, why? What are you trying to get me to do, that you think I would not do if I knew the truth?

This actually happened to me about 8-9 years ago. DH's family was all raised in, and adheres with varying degrees of commitment to, the same faith tradition. There is definitely a common understanding about weddings/marriages and the importance and traditions thereof.  They LOVE weddings. Everyone will travel hundreds or even thousands of miles to attend a family wedding, and they are often used as de facto family reunions.

They also have a binary view of marriage. There is no concept of being legally married as something separate from "married in the eyes of Diety" or "in the eyes of the Church", or anything like that. You are or you aren't. Regardless of what an individual couple may feel, in this family this is a well-established understanding to 50% of the guest list.

DH and I were invited to Cousin N's wedding, several states away. It was a big trip, we ordered a nice gift to be sent to their registry address, and went. Everyone very happy and excited.

At some point during the ceremony, we all realized that the officiant was not administering vows. He was, instead, twisting the words of the traditional religious ceremony to be a blessing of the vows which the HC had already exchanged. "HUH?" The family is looking at each other in extreme confusion. The bride is furious, glaring at the officiant.

They stop the ceremony and the groom takes the officiant aside. When they return, they finish the ceremony, with the officiant giving pointed looks at the HC, and great emphasis on the words, "DID you promise..." I thought the bride was going to throw down her bouquet and strangle him.

I have no idea what went down with the officiant, whether they lied to him about already being married and he found out at the last moment, or whether he intended to do a fake wedding and backed out.  Come to find out afterward, HC had been married for over a year and kept it a secret from the entire family. I'm not even sure if the bride's parents who footed the bill knew, possibly they did.

Ultimately, it was so senseless because if they had just announced that they eloped, everyone would have sent the same presents a year earlier, and if they threw a postdated reception everyone or nearly everyone would have come anyway. And instead of having a fun party, they spent the whole time being mad and embarassed because they were lying and got exposed.

We used to think of Cousin N as "fun and flaky Cousin that we wish we saw more often". Now we think of her as bizarre manipulative lying Cousin, who we are happy to see less of.

Your family,  so of course your choice, but I think that's a shame. It is not a serious lie IMO, and I don't think of it as a manipulation at all. Maybe they just felt self concious at not having a 'real' wedding, so tried to cover up. I would think it a little odd, but it certainly wouldn't change how I felt about the person.

EllenS

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #50 on: April 10, 2014, 03:53:48 PM »

Your family,  so of course your choice, but I think that's a shame. It is not a serious lie IMO, and I don't think of it as a manipulation at all. Maybe they just felt self concious at not having a 'real' wedding, so tried to cover up. I would think it a little odd, but it certainly wouldn't change how I felt about the person.

Yes, it is a shame. But, WOW.

Someone stops their wedding ceremony to argue with the officiant ? You wouldn't think that was a bizarre thing to do?

I assure you, it was a really, really wierd and uncomfortable situation. I think if you'd had to sit through it, you might feel differently.
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Fleur

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #51 on: April 10, 2014, 04:06:25 PM »

Your family,  so of course your choice, but I think that's a shame. It is not a serious lie IMO, and I don't think of it as a manipulation at all. Maybe they just felt self concious at not having a 'real' wedding, so tried to cover up. I would think it a little odd, but it certainly wouldn't change how I felt about the person.

Yes, it is a shame. But, WOW.

Someone stops their wedding ceremony to argue with the officiant ? You wouldn't think that was a bizarre thing to do?

I assure you, it was a really, really wierd and uncomfortable situation. I think if you'd had to sit through it, you might feel differently.

To be honest, I would feel bad for the people getting married and wonder what was wrong with the officiant!

TurtleDove

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #52 on: April 10, 2014, 04:12:46 PM »

Your family,  so of course your choice, but I think that's a shame. It is not a serious lie IMO, and I don't think of it as a manipulation at all. Maybe they just felt self concious at not having a 'real' wedding, so tried to cover up. I would think it a little odd, but it certainly wouldn't change how I felt about the person.

Yes, it is a shame. But, WOW.

Someone stops their wedding ceremony to argue with the officiant ? You wouldn't think that was a bizarre thing to do?

I assure you, it was a really, really wierd and uncomfortable situation. I think if you'd had to sit through it, you might feel differently.

To be honest, I would feel bad for the people getting married and wonder what was wrong with the officiant!

I think this depends on denomination, but officiants have rules they must follow (which most likely include not pretending to marry people who are already married).  I know several officiants who have often had to explain to a HC why what they want for the wedding is simply not possible if they want that officiant to perform the wedding. 

turnip

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #53 on: April 10, 2014, 04:19:39 PM »

Your family,  so of course your choice, but I think that's a shame. It is not a serious lie IMO, and I don't think of it as a manipulation at all. Maybe they just felt self concious at not having a 'real' wedding, so tried to cover up. I would think it a little odd, but it certainly wouldn't change how I felt about the person.

Yes, it is a shame. But, WOW.

Someone stops their wedding ceremony to argue with the officiant ? You wouldn't think that was a bizarre thing to do?

I assure you, it was a really, really wierd and uncomfortable situation. I think if you'd had to sit through it, you might feel differently.

To be honest, I would feel bad for the people getting married and wonder what was wrong with the officiant!

I think this depends on denomination, but officiants have rules they must follow (which most likely include not pretending to marry people who are already married).  I know several officiants who have often had to explain to a HC why what they want for the wedding is simply not possible if they want that officiant to perform the wedding.

Sure, but the time of that explanation is anytime _other_ than while the ceremony is being performed in front of a packed church.  I'd think the officiant was off his rocker too.

TurtleDove

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #54 on: April 10, 2014, 04:28:26 PM »
Sure, but the time of that explanation is anytime _other_ than while the ceremony is being performed in front of a packed church.  I'd think the officiant was off his rocker too.

Hah!  True.  The officiants I have known have been very clear about what they will and will not do and refuse to officiate weddings when the HC wants them to do something that is not "okay" to do. 

EllenS

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #55 on: April 10, 2014, 04:34:44 PM »

Your family,  so of course your choice, but I think that's a shame. It is not a serious lie IMO, and I don't think of it as a manipulation at all. Maybe they just felt self concious at not having a 'real' wedding, so tried to cover up. I would think it a little odd, but it certainly wouldn't change how I felt about the person.

Yes, it is a shame. But, WOW.

Someone stops their wedding ceremony to argue with the officiant ? You wouldn't think that was a bizarre thing to do?

I assure you, it was a really, really wierd and uncomfortable situation. I think if you'd had to sit through it, you might feel differently.

To be honest, I would feel bad for the people getting married and wonder what was wrong with the officiant!

I think this depends on denomination, but officiants have rules they must follow (which most likely include not pretending to marry people who are already married).  I know several officiants who have often had to explain to a HC why what they want for the wedding is simply not possible if they want that officiant to perform the wedding.

Yes, as I mentioned DH's family are all participants in the same religion. If the officiant had lost his mind and was doing the wrong ceremony, that would of course be unfortunate. I have seen that happen, as a matter of fact - I once saw an elderly officiant start reciting the ritual for blessing an infant, instead of the wedding service.  When corrected, he then started to marry the bride to her brother who was giving her away! Naturally I felt very sorry for the HC in a situation like that.

But since we got the real story about Cousin after the ceremony, it was obvious they were pressuring him to fake a solemn religious ritual in order to maintain a very odd and totally unnecessary fiction. I too, wondered why this was not sorted out beforehand, but we never found out.

As I said before, if the family had known they were married they would have celebrated their marriage, joyously, in any configuration they were invited to do so. And there is a perfectly acceptable ritual for blessing an existing marriage - the one the officiant wound up using.

The combination of elaborate secrecy + ugly behavior toward the religious officiant, showed us a side of Cousin's character we were very sorry to see.
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GlitterIsMyDrug

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #56 on: April 10, 2014, 04:45:19 PM »
So the vows I said when we were in California were "Do you Glitter take Partner to be your life partner?" and I said "I do" and then they said "Do you Partner take Glitter to be your life partner?" and she said "I do" and then we kissed. Four sentences.

What we're each writing for wedding. Now that's the serious stuff. That's the can't-eat, can't-sleep, reach-for-the-stars, over- the-fence, World Series feeling kind of stuff we'll be saying. The stuff that means something. Four sentences we already said? That's what we had to say to get legalized in another state because our state won't allow it. Because we are modern Americans who are told they aren't allowed to get married in their state because other people get upset when two chicks wanna get hitched.

I've never wanted a commitment ceremony. And I don't like that no matter what, that's apparently all I can have. Because other people think I'm less then. Because our relationship isn't as good as a heterosexual relationship. Because we aren't allowed to get married in the state we call home. Because until last year, even the federal government said we weren't worthy enough of those rights. We weren't good enough.

So, even before we over-turned DOMA, even before we overturned prop 8, I said wedding. I wanted a wedding. I'm having a wedding. I'm going to stand up in a pretty dress in front of my friends and my family in the state I call home and make loving vows to the woman that I love. And I'm not calling it something else because I'm different. Because I'm not. Because our relationship is not.

Our legality isn't a secret. We're both terrible at secrets anyways. But it's not announced. We see it as a step. For us to make this commitment we have to take certain steps. Our steps have to be separate. Even though we live in the good ol' US of A, we have to have separate ceremonies or have a destination wedding. Those are our choices. So we've taken one of our steps. I still call Partner my partner. After our wedding, she'll be my wife.

Now I know, the OP is talking about a straight couple. But given what I get to go through, I can't fault a straight couple for still wanting their wedding to be their wedding, even though circumstances don't always allow for the legal part and the celebration part to be at the same time.

Though I think we're saying "Wedding Celebration" on the invites. Partner saw it somewhere and thought it was cool and sounded like a fun thing to go to. But as far as we're concered, it's our wedding. It's when we become wife and wife. And had we gotten the legal bit done after the ceramony (because again, we can't do it in our state), it'd still be when we became wife and wife.

Ms_Cellany

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #57 on: April 10, 2014, 04:50:43 PM »
The Sweetie and I, thanks to the patchwork of state laws about same-sex marriage, got married out of state in city hall office, with two friends who lived in that city.

We had a big reception at home a few days later. The invitations said "Celebrate our marriage."


Because people like ceremony, we stood up with an officiant, and reaffirmed our vows.

The officiant started with "Ms_Cellany and The Sweetie were legally married on Tuesday..." and we very specifically used the word "reaffirm."  Then we ate and danced!

Lots of fun, and total honesty.  It can be done.
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TurtleDove

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #58 on: April 10, 2014, 04:57:38 PM »
GlitterIsMyDrug, no one is saying that you can't have the celebration you want with special vows and the dresses and cake and dancing (congrats, by the way!). Some of us are just saying that it strikes us as odd that you don't believe yourself to be married now, even though you are legally married.  Maybe I have misunderstood you. At any rate, it seems like you are being honest with your friends and family that you are already married anyway, so the element of deception isn't present in your specific circumstances anyway.


Carotte

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Re: Wedding reenactment-- really hope I convinced my friend not to.
« Reply #59 on: April 10, 2014, 05:13:54 PM »
You can't even fathom how difficult this conversation would be in a language that use the same word for the wedding (ceremony) and being married, since what I take from this is that a couple can be married but not have had a wedding, so have a wedding while already being married, but they should make that clear if it's been more than a week...
And sometimes they have already been wed(in the legal sense, I don't think it happens often for religious weddings), but don't consider themself married...
Or they consider themself married (religious) but are not legally wed (state)...

Unless done for gift-graby reasons I'd give a pass to couples that didn't announce to all they already signed but are having the ceremony now, it can be awkward, it can be just not something people would understand (my grandparents would be completely lost with this concept).
As for putting it on the invite, not everyone would catch or know the difference between the right, etiquette approved wording and something else "we invite you to celebrate","so and so require the honour of your presence", "come and join us" go right above the heads of most people. (For example I just learned that religious wedding have a different wording because you don't invite people to a church/temple, you let them know when/where it is)
So writting "to our wedding", "to our marriage", "as we get hitched","as we are joined","as we exchange marriage vows"... would either need a footnote of explanation or I'll just think the HC found the wording nice.

There's even an example on http://www.invitationconsultants.com/ that doesn't say (with words) what you are invited to!
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