Author Topic: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102  (Read 18272 times)

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sammycat

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
« Reply #105 on: April 21, 2014, 09:15:50 PM »
Reading it, the first answer your daughter gave seemed pretty clear to me.  The second, was a particularly unfortunate choice, since it was easy to misinterpret to hear what he wanted to hear.  Not saying he was right to buy tickets, but asking again seems pretty benign, since the first no could either be interpreted as "I didn't want to go, so I booked other things" or, "I hadn't planned on going, so I booked other things, but I might reconsider".  If the second is how he interpreted it, then a simple question along the lines of I know you hadn't planned on going and had made other plans, are you still sure you're not going would have been much more reasonable. 

His mother sounds crazy.  I'm not sure why we all assigned her decision to call to him.  I can't imagine any teenage boy asking his more to call the parents of a girl who declined his invitation to prom since very few things would be more embarrassing than that. 

The expectation that a guy will ask her father whether he can ask her on a date is highly unusual.  Particularly in college, it is impractical at best to figure out how to contact a girl's parents before asking her out. I have never heard of it happening that way.  My parents, who were going on HS dates in the 1950's said it wouldn't have happened that way then either.


I think your dd's expectations for dating aren't in line with what the majority of people expect from dating and she needs to be more upfront about that with prospective dates. For me if someone asked my dad for permission to date me that would make it an automatic no because I want to be the gatekeeper for my dating life - not defer that to my parents. It would make me feel like I wasn't respected as a part of the relationship - that it was between my dad and my dad and my opinion does not matter as much. Is that something she expects going forward? Or only because she is still a minor? Because I am thinking that most of my male friends wouldn't want to ask a father's permission just to start dating. It feels very intrusive. Also what would she do if her dad said no?

In any event if that is what she wants then that is what she wants but she should be aware that she is the outlier there and needs to explicitly state those expectations or she will be very disappointed in the future.

I agree with both these.

Jay seems more chilled out about this than his mother, especially once you add in her 'off' history.

LifeOnPluto

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
« Reply #106 on: April 21, 2014, 11:35:39 PM »
I also thought your DD's answer was pretty clear. To me, the "okay" meant "Ok, I will let you know if I change my mind". But I can kinda see how a clueless, excitable teenage boy might get the impression that "She'll change her mind, now she knows I've got the tickets!"

When Jay hadn't heard from DD by the weekend, he might have mentioned something to his mum, who got the wrong end of the stick, etc.

Anyway, sounds like your DD handled the situation really well!

m2kbug

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
« Reply #107 on: April 22, 2014, 10:14:55 AM »
I haven't even read all the posts yet.  I was wondering, when I read how mom called you (really?  At his age) and was saying son was crushed about this whole thing if she wasn't being over-protective because her son has a behavior type issue (one track mind/doesn't listen/gets a thought in his head and won't deviate from it), whether it's a disability or not.  She certainly isn't doing him any favors coddling him. 

I think both the kids messed up, the boy more than DD.  First, no means no.  Second, I can see a confused "okay?" to mean, "yes."  Third, I can't imagine how they (he) got from the "okay" to a "just in case you change your mind" question to renting a limo, restaurant reservations, corsage, without so much as a conversation to verify that she would in fact be going with him.

DD will need to be more assertive in her "no's" in the future.  This is a learning process.  She should also pay attention to the personality types.  She knows this kid gets onto a subject and stays there, and knowing that, she will have to be bluntly clear that the answer is no, especially with people like the boy.  She will have to hurt feelings and step on toes once in awhile.  This is life.  This is a skill she will learn.  Rather than "okay?" she should have said, "I have plans already.  I can't go." 

This boy needs to learn how to stop and pay attention and recognize social cues and also not take everything so literally.  "Let's get together for coffee" or "maybe we could ride together" is not necessarily a commitment.  Touch base and solidify plans instead of sitting at the coffee shop or showing up at the house.  "You said we'd get together for coffee."  "Er, yeah, but not this weekend, dude."  His mother will need to work on that (with him, not with other friends/parents), and he'll learn it himself after he gets let down a couple times.  You need to follow through. 

This whole thing is a little nutters and this mom sounds like a piece of work.  I wonder of the boy was mortified his mom called the other mom.  Ack!  Your daughter would be wise to stay away from this mess.

Also, I don't understand this thing around the boy having to ask the parents before they ask the daughter on a date.  Is this how you raised her, that's fine, but a lot of boys won't know this, so it will be up to your daughter to explain it to these boys when they ask her out that they need to call her father first.  I know as a teen, I had to ask permission from my parents and my parents had to meet him.  None of this "honk at the curb" shenanigans or "meet you there."  I wouldn't get to go if they didn't get to meet him, but there was no requirement that the boy had to call my parents before asking me out, that part was my responsibility. 

TurtleDove

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
« Reply #108 on: April 22, 2014, 10:42:48 AM »
m2kbug had some good points.  I think all people (not just women) would benefit from learning how to politely say "no" to someone.  I describe this skill as "Smiling Rejection," and it has served me very well in social and professional interactions.  Especially in romantic overtures, it can take a lot of energy and guts to ask someone out.  Fear of rejection, and pain of rejection, are common to all people (or at least all people I have ever met).  I can see that Jay handled this poorly, but he is a teenage boy, and from the updates it appears he and the DD remain friendly.

"Smiling Rejection" can be as simple as something like this:

A: "Would you go to prom with me?"
B: "How sweet of you to ask, but I'm sorry I have other plans!  I am sure whoever you end up taking will be a lucky girl - have a great time!"

Person A is "rejected" but the sting is lessened.  Compare that with "Demeaning Rejection":

A: "Would you go to prom with me?"
B: "Um....no. (Rolls eyes, gossips with friends about how a loser asked her to prom)"

Not that DD did Demeaning Rejection - she absolutely didn't.  But I think some people don't think through that sometimes it is more the delivery of a "no" than the actual "no" that stings.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 10:44:28 AM by TurtleDove »

Lynn2000

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
« Reply #109 on: April 22, 2014, 10:49:58 AM »
I think TurtleDove has a good point. I find that "Smiling Rejection" has worked well for me in the past, in many different scenarios (family, work, etc.). I think of it as being enthusiastic about the activity on behalf of the other person, while also declining to participate myself. "Oh, you're going to a festival dedicated to something that is the complete opposite of anything I would ever in my life be interested in? How cool for you, I'm sure you'll have a good time. No, thanks, I won't be going, but I look forward to hearing about it when you get back!"

Just another strategy to keep in one's pocket. It sounds like the situation ended well, except for Jay's mom being nutty.
~Lynn2000

Julsie

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
« Reply #110 on: April 22, 2014, 08:07:50 PM »
Quote
The expectation that a guy will ask her father whether he can ask her on a date is highly unusual.  Particularly in college, it is impractical at best to figure out how to contact a girl's parents before asking her out.

It's not unusual in my social circle.  It's absolutely the norm, even into college.  I suspect that RegionMom and I have similar backgrounds.

My high school daughter recently was asked to the prom.  She and the boy are clearly "sweet" on each other but are not dating for now.  The young man called my husband to ask if he could ask our daughter to the dance.  It's just the way it's done in our group.

Best wishes to your daughter, RegionMom, and to her clueless young friend.  Here's hoping that he wisens up with age.

johelenc1

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
« Reply #111 on: April 22, 2014, 11:55:39 PM »
I've read the update and glad the potential drama was minimized.  But, I want to give my opinion anyway.

My first thought was, "the reason the boy may not have the courage to ever ask another girl out to prom is because is mom just called the girl he did ask and whine about how she rejected her poor little baby boy."

My next thoughts were, "the only people that need to apologize is crazy mom who called in the first place and the OP who let the conversation go on past "Hmmm. If your son has an issue with my daughter, I would suggest you suggest to him that he bring that up with her.  Thanks."

These kids are 16.  They need to work it out themselves - or at least try from the beginning.  If they can't, then maybe parents could get involved.  If they must.

I also think the daughter was perfectly clear.  She said no.  She even told him where she was going to be instead.  I picture her "okay" as a "ooookay" with a raised eyebrow and eye roll to his desperate attempt to guilt her into going to prom with him.  The kid heard what he wanted to hear.  If he really thought they were going to prom, he should have been communicating with her.  You don't ask a girl to prom and then don't speak to her until the night of prom.

Wintergreen

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
« Reply #112 on: April 23, 2014, 06:50:07 AM »
"Okay" to me means yes, so I'm a bit confused as to why you and your daughter thought she said no.  I can't think of any way that "okay" could be interpreted as no.  Her original mention of other plans was a bit wishy-washy, and his buying the tickets did seem like a way to try to coerce her into a yes, but this whole situation seems like a miscommunication.  I'd suggest that you, as parent, stay out of it, and tell his mom that it was up to the kids to figure out.  It's a good idea for her to learn to say no in a clear manner as a teenager.  You can definitely coach her on that, of course.

The statement for which the "okay" was given was "I bought two tickets", not to the question "will you come with me to prom". If I reply "Okay" to the first one, it does not in anyway imply "okay, I will be using other of the tickets with you". It's "okay, I hear what you are saying." Furthermore, there is nothing wishy-washy about stating "I have other plans, I'm not going". That is perfectly clear in any and every situation. I can see of course that hopeful boy (or anyone really) will hear what he want's to hear, but that really is not daughter's problem.

MariaE

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
« Reply #113 on: April 23, 2014, 07:21:10 AM »
"Okay" to me means yes, so I'm a bit confused as to why you and your daughter thought she said no.  I can't think of any way that "okay" could be interpreted as no.  Her original mention of other plans was a bit wishy-washy, and his buying the tickets did seem like a way to try to coerce her into a yes, but this whole situation seems like a miscommunication.  I'd suggest that you, as parent, stay out of it, and tell his mom that it was up to the kids to figure out.  It's a good idea for her to learn to say no in a clear manner as a teenager.  You can definitely coach her on that, of course.

The statement for which the "okay" was given was "I bought two tickets", not to the question "will you come with me to prom". If I reply "Okay" to the first one, it does not in anyway imply "okay, I will be using other of the tickets with you". It's "okay, I hear what you are saying." Furthermore, there is nothing wishy-washy about stating "I have other plans, I'm not going". That is perfectly clear in any and every situation. I can see of course that hopeful boy (or anyone really) will hear what he want's to hear, but that really is not daughter's problem.

Not to mention that even if "okay" did mean yes, the question at hand was "(will you) Let me know if you change your plans"... which is a completely different question from "Will you go to the prom with me".
 
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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
« Reply #114 on: April 23, 2014, 10:58:49 AM »
"Okay" to me means yes, so I'm a bit confused as to why you and your daughter thought she said no.  I can't think of any way that "okay" could be interpreted as no.  Her original mention of other plans was a bit wishy-washy, and his buying the tickets did seem like a way to try to coerce her into a yes, but this whole situation seems like a miscommunication.  I'd suggest that you, as parent, stay out of it, and tell his mom that it was up to the kids to figure out.  It's a good idea for her to learn to say no in a clear manner as a teenager.  You can definitely coach her on that, of course.

The statement for which the "okay" was given was "I bought two tickets", not to the question "will you come with me to prom". If I reply "Okay" to the first one, it does not in anyway imply "okay, I will be using other of the tickets with you". It's "okay, I hear what you are saying." Furthermore, there is nothing wishy-washy about stating "I have other plans, I'm not going". That is perfectly clear in any and every situation. I can see of course that hopeful boy (or anyone really) will hear what he want's to hear, but that really is not daughter's problem.

Not to mention that even if "okay" did mean yes, the question at hand was "(will you) Let me know if you change your plans"... which is a completely different question from "Will you go to the prom with me".

^^^^^ THIS. Exactly this. He asked her to go to prom. She said no, she would not go to prom. He asked her to let him know if her plans changed. She said ok, she would let him know if her plans changed. It's unfortunate if he was confused or misinterpreted.

gen xer

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
« Reply #115 on: April 23, 2014, 11:44:31 AM »
 I agree with the posters like Gellchom and m2k that it is likely just an issue of maturing communication skills and that we don't have to start thinking in terms of "creeper" behaviour.

OP's daughter was not in the wrong.  She explained she had a prior commitment and would not be going and had no reason to think this guy wouldn't clue in...except that he didn't.  That's where she could have been a little firmer / clearer.  In a kind way.  The "Okay???" wasn't really a yes but ther are some types that will just run with whatever glimmer of hope they can get.  They need firmer answers.  It's not even a question of "should" they keep asking - the fact is some people just do.  Those types of people will take a mile if given an inch and they will deliberately misunderstand.

Now she knows.

The guy...well now he's learned that pushy / manipulative / deliberate obtuseness isn't going to work.  He bought tickets and he should have to wear the cost.  He doesn't have the date he wants.  Hopefully - lesson learned - that is if mom backs off and lets him learn it.

These aren't necessarily bad things for kids to experience.  Both girls and boys can learn how to say no firmly and politely and they can learn how to accept no as an answer.

Surianne

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
« Reply #116 on: April 23, 2014, 11:58:10 AM »
"Okay" to me means yes, so I'm a bit confused as to why you and your daughter thought she said no.  I can't think of any way that "okay" could be interpreted as no.  Her original mention of other plans was a bit wishy-washy, and his buying the tickets did seem like a way to try to coerce her into a yes, but this whole situation seems like a miscommunication.  I'd suggest that you, as parent, stay out of it, and tell his mom that it was up to the kids to figure out.  It's a good idea for her to learn to say no in a clear manner as a teenager.  You can definitely coach her on that, of course.

The statement for which the "okay" was given was "I bought two tickets", not to the question "will you come with me to prom". If I reply "Okay" to the first one, it does not in anyway imply "okay, I will be using other of the tickets with you". It's "okay, I hear what you are saying." Furthermore, there is nothing wishy-washy about stating "I have other plans, I'm not going". That is perfectly clear in any and every situation. I can see of course that hopeful boy (or anyone really) will hear what he want's to hear, but that really is not daughter's problem.

Not to mention that even if "okay" did mean yes, the question at hand was "(will you) Let me know if you change your plans"... which is a completely different question from "Will you go to the prom with me".

^^^^^ THIS. Exactly this. He asked her to go to prom. She said no, she would not go to prom. He asked her to let him know if her plans changed. She said ok, she would let him know if her plans changed. It's unfortunate if he was confused or misinterpreted.

My post was actually on page 2, so I'm not sure why it's suddenly being picked apart now on page 8.  Let's just agree to disagree on my post, since I don't think debating it will be of any use to the OP. 

I'm happy to see  the OP's update, where it sounds like both her daughter and the boy behaved very reasonably and politely toward each other, and the issue is resolved. 

Julsie

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
« Reply #117 on: April 23, 2014, 02:23:00 PM »
RegionMom, thank you for sharing this situation with us.  I used it as a springboard for a great conversation with my 16 year old daughter today.  We talked about red flags, manipulative tricks, guilt trips, saying no clearly, etc...

I want her to know that not every attentive young man is going to have her best interests at heart and that if her hinky meter goes off, it's important to heed it and not just try to "be nice".

I'll also be using this story with my teenage son about the importance of respectful communication and good listening skills.

amylouky

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
« Reply #118 on: April 23, 2014, 02:40:31 PM »
RegionMom, thank you for sharing this situation with us.  I used it as a springboard for a great conversation with my 16 year old daughter today.  We talked about red flags, manipulative tricks, guilt trips, saying no clearly, etc...

I want her to know that not every attentive young man is going to have her best interests at heart and that if her hinky meter goes off, it's important to heed it and not just try to "be nice".

I'll also be using this story with my teenage son about the importance of respectful communication and good listening skills.

I hope you'll be teaching both lessons to both your daughter and your son. Girls can be just as manipulative and guilt trippy as boys can. I've known plenty of men who get absolutely trampled by their SOs because they were raised to be gentlemen.

Steve

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
« Reply #119 on: April 23, 2014, 03:01:54 PM »
I have to say your DD sounds like a class act. Her behavior in this (from your posts of course) seems decent, polite, kind and to the point. Please tell her I am proud  8). I hope my DD's ( 10 and 8 ) will be able to handle this stuff as classy as she does.

I hope she can keep from sharing this debacle with others at school and spare Jay any further embarrassment.