Author Topic: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102  (Read 18233 times)

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Carotte

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2014, 07:21:07 PM »
I can clearly see OP's daughter (and me) answering "okay?" in that puzzled, raised eyebrow, trailing and audible question mark that could translate as "why are you telling me this?".

Lovestruck and/or socially not there teenager could interpret this as an agreement, but for me the daughter is in the clear.
There could have been better communication all around, but it's on Jay to have jumped to hope/conclusion and bought the tickets, he probably spun a tale to his mom, maybe to explain why he already had bought, rented and made reservations, or he really believes it, or thought his mommy would make the DD go to the dance with him....
They're teenagers, knowing adults sometime have trouble navigating communication, I'm not surprised of the hiccups.

coolio

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2014, 07:30:45 PM »
bg-

Jay, "I bought prom tickets just in case.  Let me know if you can go."
DD, "Okay??"



To me it seems like your DD's okay is the answer to the bold part - Let me know if you can go. That is the only question that was asked in this second interaction.

Also Jay should not have bought the tickets, because even though your DD didn't directly say no, she didn't say yes either.

I don't think your DD should apologize to Jay, if he brings up prom she should say No I am not going and leave it at that.

Jones

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2014, 07:48:19 PM »
It seems her No was string enough at some point, as Jay told his mother she has now said No.

If he can't take "I'm busy that night" as a No, and if he's going to run to his Mom for intervention when shot down, he's going to have a hard time in college.

Eta I also took the "okay" as meaning "okay I'll let you know if I can go." As she still has plans Saturday. she still cannot and will not go, so she didn't lie.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 07:52:01 PM by Jones »

Addy

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
« Reply #33 on: April 20, 2014, 07:58:57 PM »
I agree 100% with buvezdevin, coolio and Jones.

He didn't even ask her to go the second time, he simply said, let me know if you can go. So the okay, to me, would be saying, okay, I will let you know if I can go.

I am a little ticked at this other mother reinforcing that it's ok not to take no for an answer from a girl, but maybe she didn't get the whole story.

TeamBhakta

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2014, 08:08:50 PM »
I think she should tell Jay "I apologize if I gave you the impression that I accepted your invitation to prom on Wednesday. I was confused when you said you bought tickets and I didn't mean for my "Okay?" to come across as an acceptance. As I said on Monday, I'm not going to prom."

She does not owe him further explanation or apology, nor should she reimburse him any expenses. If his mom calls again tell her "DD told Jay on Monday that she wasn't available to go to prom. We're sorry that he misunderstood." and nothing more.

If the genders were reversed, there's no way we'd suggest a boy should apologize to an overly aggressive / sneaky girl who wouldn't accept no.

NyaChan

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2014, 08:18:40 PM »
I think she should tell Jay "I apologize if I gave you the impression that I accepted your invitation to prom on Wednesday. I was confused when you said you bought tickets and I didn't mean for my "Okay?" to come across as an acceptance. As I said on Monday, I'm not going to prom."

She does not owe him further explanation or apology, nor should she reimburse him any expenses. If his mom calls again tell her "DD told Jay on Monday that she wasn't available to go to prom. We're sorry that he misunderstood." and nothing more.

If the genders were reversed, there's no way we'd suggest a boy should apologize to an overly aggressive / sneaky girl who wouldn't accept no.

Actually for me the gender reversal would make me want the guy to apologize more.  Not because an apology was necessarily owed, but because I'd worry that he'd look like a jerk otherwise to people who do subscribe to the typical gender role ideas - as in, that poor girl got up the courage to ask him out and he…so on and so forth.  Sometimes an apology is good, just as a CYA thing.

Garden Goblin

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
« Reply #36 on: April 20, 2014, 08:38:56 PM »
Send this link to Jay and his mother - http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2011/03/21/mythcommunication-its-not-that-they-dont-understand-they-just-dont-like-the-answer/

Tell your daughter not to worry about it, it's their problem, not hers.

If Jay's mother still has problems, point out a simple truth to her - it's not a matter of 'well she didn't say no clearly enough', it's a matter of 'she never said yes'.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 08:40:35 PM by Garden Goblin »

blarg314

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
« Reply #37 on: April 20, 2014, 08:43:22 PM »
I would say that the first time she was clear in saying no. Jay was being presumptuous and pushy in his second telling (it wasn't really asking), and your daughter's response to *that* was unclear - possibly out of surprise. I do think that the pushiness of not taking no for an answer cancels out the second response.

If you need a response to Jay's mother, I'd tell her her son needs to take no for an answer, and not assume that he can push a girl into changing her answer by spending money.  I would not offer to reimburse him - he bought tickets after she said no.

However, I think it would be a good idea to have a frank talk with your daughter about the realities of dating, before she sets herself up for more problems. It sounds like she had very specific, very firm ideas about what dating involves, and doesn't realize that these expectations aren't going to be shared by most guys. If she is expecting that of course they will share her ideas, and is shocked when they don't, she could get in trouble. See the other thread in dating on assuming exclusivity for a more advanced version of the kind of problem that comes when you assume that your date shares your specific idea of how things work.

Most 16 year olds, male or female, are not going to have "ask permission of the girl's father before asking her to a dance" in their dating repertoire, and would be baffled or derisive of the expectation. And 16 year old guys are not known for suave and formal invitations - casual and kind of awkward is more the expectation at that age. And as you learn from experience, a list of "My guy will X, Y, and Z" is of limited usefulness when it includes things like their expected hobbies. It's her choice to set her own standards, but if she doesn't recognize that some of what she is expecting (asking permission from her father, old-fashioned gender based manners) is going to be hard to find, and others (good tipping manners, adept with small talk with adults) may take a number of years for the young men of her acquaintance to acquire, it will make things harder than they need to be.



EllenS

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
« Reply #38 on: April 20, 2014, 08:47:27 PM »
To me, Jay comes off as a self-absorbed manipulative little piece of carp. Which is not as judgmental as it sounds, as most of us go through that phase at one time or anther.  However, he's sixteen years old, he should be able to negotiate asking a girl on a date without having his Mommy try to MAKE her go. Cuz that's so attractive to girls, right?

DD was perfectly clear the first time she said I am not going to prom.  Whatever he thought, interpreted, imagined, etc is not DD's problem.  For crying out loud, insert something else besides prom in there, and there is obviously no consent. I mean, on paper "I will let you know" or "as I told you before, I am not going to prom with you or anyone else" would be clearer, but that's not the way people really talk.  She did not mislead him.  For him to lay out money on the basis of a conversation that didn't really happen, is at best irrational wishful thinking, and at worst extremely manipulative. It also has no bearing on how adult social etiquette really works.

He said, "let me know if you can go". He knew, when he left that conversation, that she did not intend to go. And he never mentioned it to her again.  How is this appropriate?  Would you cook an elaborate dinner or buy concert tickets for people who said they couldn't come? It's jut not reasonable behavior.

If Jay's mom has the nerve to call again, you can just tell her that DD said no, and Jay's buying ticket's etc is on him. Maybe she should be talking to her son about actually listening to what women tell him.  (I would not say that part to her, of course). DD has nothing to apologize for, and personally I think that encouraging her to apologize for his imaginary conversation, is going to set her a very bad precedent for dealing with men in the adult world, both in business and in dating.  DD needs to have the confidence that yes, she was there, yes she had half of that conversation, and she did not agree to go. You don't want people like Jay making her question what she already knows to be true.

Now, if Jay is going to tell his mom a made-up version of what happened, it's very possible he will tell others also. And yes, there may be people who will think DD was in the wrong, or is being jerky, or whatever. But that's going to happen at some point, in high school. People spread rumors. Innocent people get talked about behind their back. It's just something you have to learn to address. The simplest way is to say, "that is not what happened."

I pity the woman Jay finally decides to propose to if Mommy doesn't back off.

veronaz

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
« Reply #39 on: April 20, 2014, 08:53:33 PM »
Wow, great post EllenS.

yokozbornak

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
« Reply #40 on: April 20, 2014, 09:00:53 PM »
Your daughter's "no" was pretty clear to me, but it wasn't what he wanted to hear so he go his mommy involved.  You need to have your daughter's back and to NOT placate this jerk and his mommy.  You can't expect your daughter to have a shiny spine when you don't exhibit one yourself.  Show her what a strong woman who stands up for herself looks like, and she will be more likely to model that behavior.  I understand not wanting to hurt someone's feelings, but since he isn't considering hers, I wouldn't be worried about it.


kherbert05

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
« Reply #41 on: April 20, 2014, 09:05:06 PM »
Your DD told Jay no, and he went and bought tickets anyway, and tried to guilt your DD into going anyway.  Jay then fabricates a wonderful story to his mother, who IMHO, hasn't been very proactive teaching Jay that no means no. Don't pay for the prom ticket, it was bought at a tool of manipulation, IMHO.


This - and given the conservative nature of the school/community I think it would be OK for your DH to call Jay's father and tell him his son is way out of line and needs to leave your daughter alone. (Especially since Jay has his Mom trying to force you into forcing your daughter on a date with a manipulative and unpleasant boy)


If you pay for the ticket you are sending your daughter the message that Jay had the right to expect her to go with him because he said so and spent money on a ticket. Think hard about that message.
 
I think your DD's Ok was more don't engage the crazy and trying to get away from him.


I would tell your daughter to go directly to a staff member and report Jay if he continues to bother her at school.
Don't Teach Them For Your Past. Teach Them For Their Future

lakey

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
« Reply #42 on: April 20, 2014, 09:20:31 PM »
I  believe that this is something that your DD and Jay should have handled between themselves without Jay's Mom calling you. When it comes to high school dating, these kinds of misunderstandings are very common, as are rejections. It's all part of life and kids need to deal with it, and hopefully learn to handle social issues better so that in the future they are less likely to get into mix ups like this that ends up with hurt feelings.

If Jay asked in the way you worded it, then it came across as more of a "Let's hang out" thing, than a formal date. He may have made it seem that way to protect himself in case of rejection. Then your daughter's "Okay" was also ambiguous. They both need to be a lot more explicit about what they really mean when they communicate.

Other than that, Jay's mom would probably help him more by helping him "Shake it off," than by calling the girl's mom to complain. If he wants to meet girls, he's going to have to deal with some rejection and some disappointment. 

miranova

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
« Reply #43 on: April 20, 2014, 09:32:46 PM »
The sticking point to me is that he bought tickets after the first, very clear:  "I'm not going to prom".  We can argue all day long about whether or not "okay" in the 2nd conversation was unclear, but he had already bought the tickets before that happened.  So, the expense of the tickets is absolutely, 100% his responsibility.  There is nothing I hated more in the dating world than when men acted like martyrs for things I had never asked, expected, nor wanted them to purchase.  That is manipulative and if this were my daughter I'd be using this as a teaching moment to talk through Jay's motives in a)purchasing the tickets after she said no and b) TELLING her that he had purchased the tickets.  I'd talk through whether Jay's actions were respectful of her boundaries (saying "no" is a boundary) and how she could better manage this in the future.  I don't FAULT her for not knowing exactly what to say when faced with the 2nd conversation, because I'm sure she wasn't expecting someone she said no to to buy her a ticket.  I'm sure it threw her off guard.  However, this unfortunately will probably not be the last time this happens in her life, so it's good to have some stock answers.

The best thing I have found when I feel like I'm being played in some way but don't want the awkwardness of just saying that, I will voice confusion.  "I'm confused....why did you buy 2 tickets?  Did you find a date?"  I've used this with manipulators in my life with success.  Confusion is more effective and productive than getting angry, even if what they are doing is infuriating.  They will never admit to manipulating you, so it forces them to back down to save face.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 09:35:43 PM by miranova »

zyrs

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
« Reply #44 on: April 20, 2014, 09:40:21 PM »
Your daughter owes Jay nothing but this.

"Jay, I told you last Monday that I had babysitting and other plans and was not going to the Prom.  I'm sorry you refused to listen to me and bought tickets anyway, but I am not going to the Prom."

Honestly, even if she were inclined to go to the Prom with him I would advise her not to go anywhere with him.  Involving parents like this is a bully tatic IMO.