Author Topic: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102  (Read 18680 times)

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Twik

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
« Reply #75 on: April 21, 2014, 10:17:29 AM »
A good learning experience for DD, I think, in dealing with this sort of person (or with pushy MLM sellers, I suppose). They will try to twist any sort of agreement into a complete accord with their desires ("I wonder if you'd like to buy this widget. By the way, isn't it a nice day?" "Yes, I guess." "YOU SAID YES! Sign on this line, right here!").

Anyone (male or female) who calls upon their parents to "make" someone else date them is too immature to be dating. Teen dating is a vicious world of ecstasy and heartbreak, and we all pick up some scars from it. Most of us deal with it.
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dawbs

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
« Reply #76 on: April 21, 2014, 10:23:07 AM »
The ONLY saving grace I can imagine for this boy is him to approach DD and say something along the lines of :
"ZOMG, I am so so sorry that my mom called.  I told her we weren't going together but that I bought 2 tickets.   What I said and what she heard are 2 different things.  I'm mortified she's interfering and wanted to say I'm sorry"

I think this boy was not handling it well...but I also know that sometimes what moms do isn't sanctioned by the child.

wolfie

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
« Reply #77 on: April 21, 2014, 10:24:53 AM »
I think your dd's expectations for dating aren't in line with what the majority of people expect from dating and she needs to be more upfront about that with prospective dates. For me if someone asked my dad for permission to date me that would make it an automatic no because I want to be the gatekeeper for my dating life - not defer that to my parents. It would make me feel like I wasn't respected as a part of the relationship - that it was between my dad and my dad and my opinion does not matter as much. Is that something she expects going forward? Or only because she is still a minor? Because I am thinking that most of my male friends wouldn't want to ask a father's permission just to start dating. It feels very intrusive. Also what would she do if her dad said no?

In any event if that is what she wants then that is what she wants but she should be aware that she is the outlier there and needs to explicitly state those expectations or she will be very disappointed in the future.

Jones

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
« Reply #78 on: April 21, 2014, 10:34:53 AM »
I'm sure if DD had wanted to date Jay, she would have asked him to talk to her dad before she could say yes. I had certain dating standards as a teen, not these same standards but they were outside the norm, and if a prospective date didn't listen to my standard he didn't date me. If I didn't feel I could tell him those standards, it certainly didn't bode well for a future relationsh*p either.

mich3554

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
« Reply #79 on: April 21, 2014, 11:54:25 AM »
I think that this is a very good lesson for your daughter.

When she said that she had plans, it sounded like she was justifying not going rather than saying "NO" flat out.  When he told her that he was going to buy tickets anyway, she should have reiterated "NO" and not said "okay".

Most of us here understand her intentions, but sometimes you just need to not justify your actions and say "NO" without justification.  Isn't that what many advocate here?

And yes, I have dealt with this problem myself when I would get asked out repeatedly by someone that I didn't want anything to do with.  At first, I tried to be nice about it but quickly realized that being nice wasn't helping me, it was encouraging him.  So it is a fine line that you walk to give a strong "NO" and not be totally rude about it.  But a flat out "NO" with no justification is what worked for me.  That way, the guy could not rationalize a "maybe" in his mind.

The Wild One, Forever

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
« Reply #80 on: April 21, 2014, 12:10:26 PM »
I was feeling a little outraged on your daughter's behalf.  That first "I'm not going" sounds clear as crystal to me, so I read your post to my son, age 17, to get his "expert" opinion.  Sometimes, I think high school kids speak a secret coded language we can only barely comprehend.   ::)  This is his take:

Jay sounds like a "creeper", and your daughter's first answer was not in the least ambiguous.  As far as the second exchange goes, her "Okay?" is to be interpreted as, "Um, yeah, and you are telling me this because...?"  Your daughter was probably at a loss for what to say, as the question had already been asked and answered, the invitation graciously declined.

We are both also rather amused that Jay's mom got in on the action.  Your typical teen boy would be mortified that his mom has any part in arranging his social life. 

RegionMom, I hope your daughter will stay strong.  She does not owe an apology for anything, and your family should certainly not be reimbursing Jay for tickets to a prom your daughter stated she was not attending. 

And Jay really, really needs to learn what "no" means. 

PS--I see by your update that she is going to talk to him.  That will be great, if she uses the language laid out in your post. 
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TootsNYC

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
« Reply #81 on: April 21, 2014, 12:45:53 PM »
I think your dd's expectations for dating aren't in line with what the majority of people expect from dating and she needs to be more upfront about that with prospective dates. For me if someone asked my dad for permission to date me that would make it an automatic no because I want to be the gatekeeper for my dating life - not defer that to my parents. It would make me feel like I wasn't respected as a part of the relationship - that it was between my dad and my dad and my opinion does not matter as much. Is that something she expects going forward? Or only because she is still a minor? Because I am thinking that most of my male friends wouldn't want to ask a father's permission just to start dating. It feels very intrusive. Also what would she do if her dad said no?

In any event if that is what she wants then that is what she wants but she should be aware that she is the outlier there and needs to explicitly state those expectations or she will be very disappointed in the future.

However, I'm wondering if her idea is that the boy would say, "want to go to prom?" and she'd say, "would you ask my dad if it's OK to ask me out?"

Then she'll get what she wants. It would really surprise me if a boy's going to Dad for permission to date her was a surprise to HER.

In other words, this:
I'm sure if DD had wanted to date Jay, she would have asked him to talk to her dad before she could say yes. I had certain dating standards as a teen, not these same standards but they were outside the norm, and if a prospective date didn't listen to my standard he didn't date me. If I didn't feel I could tell him those standards, it certainly didn't bode well for a future relationsh*p either.

Wild One, I love that you asked your son, and that you brought us his response. Nice to hear from a member of the cohort that this is creepy.

Eeep!

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
« Reply #82 on: April 21, 2014, 01:07:26 PM »
I agree with the people who say that your DD was pretty darn clear.  I think that even if you take her "okay?" as an "okay!" the only question she was answering was the "let me know if you can go?".   And an answer to that in the affirmative is in no way a "OK, actually, I will go to prom with you."
For instance, if I had this conversation with my friend:

Friend: Want to go see a movie this Saturday?
Me: Oh sorry, I've got plans
Friend: OK, well let me know if things change and you can go
Me: OK.

I don't know anyone who would then turn around and think that I said I was going to to the movies with her.
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Kimblee

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
« Reply #83 on: April 21, 2014, 01:13:03 PM »
OP here, and I must say, this thread has given me a lot to think about!

I had not considered that he bought the tickets after she told him no.  Wow. 

And that link about Mythcommuniction- super Wow!!  DD is quiet, but strong.  That article was powerful.  I will not show it to her now, but will take her out for coffee soon and chat, about dating and how to say no for any situation, and about clear communication.

My offering restitution was when the mom was rambling how her son was so hurt and his future may be marred by this. So I was trying to get a feel of what she wanted- a refund?  a date?  me to play spy on my DD and find out what happened?  She wants DD to talk to her son.  It took her a while, but that is what she wanted. 

So, per her request,  >:D, DD will have a very brief and direct conversation/statement for Jay tomorrow, much like the ideas posted by others, something like-- "I told you I had a babysitting commitment, so why would you buy two tickets?  I am not going to prom.  Sorry if you misunderstood my NO means anything else but no, but I am going to class now.  I do not expect to have this conversation again.  Good bye."

Thanks, guys! 

My little girl is growing up.  Sometimes it does take a village!

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Well, if he doesn't learn how to take no for an answer, his future will definitely be marred.

He'll certainly try to blame every future difficulty with women on this interaction. 

My story:  in 1979 I broke up with my first boyfriend...we were both 17 and had dated for less than a year.  It was no big dramatic thing;  I just realized he wasn't a very nice person and didn't want to be around him.  My breakup speech was along the lines of, 'we can still be friends.

Fast forward 45 years.  I am contacted on FB by Boyfriend's wife, also a high school classmate.  She told me that she had left him because of physical and emotional abuse.  He told her that he was 'unable to love anyone' because of the trauma I had inflicted on him when he was 17.  <eyeroll>

I wouldn't be surprised. My high school boyfriend (who I broke it off with because he needed a lot of attention from me and my stepdad was dying in the hospital so I couldn't give it to him) when we reconnected tried to convince me to be his "On the side" while he stayed with his current girlfriend.

When I refused he tried to guilt be by saying that I "broke his heart" and "ruined his teen years" by breaking up with him. Because GUILT TRIPS get you laid?

OP: Your daughter sounds like a smart girl, but keep an eye out. jay may not take no for an answer and may keep trying to harass her,

gellchom

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
« Reply #84 on: April 21, 2014, 02:26:04 PM »
I'm probably going to bring down the wrath of ehell here, but here goes ...

First, let me stress that DD absolutely doesn't have to go to the prom with Jay or pay for the ticket or anything else.  I don't think she did anything wrong, although she could have been clearer.  If I were her mom, I'd advise her to tell Jay what others have advised, something like, "I'm really sorry about the misunderstanding, but I won't be going to the prom.  I hope you have a good time."  Not because she has anything to apologize for it, just because it's the kind way to handle it.

And I understand that here at ehell, we all want to be supportive of the OPs and take their recounting of events as absolutely accurate and all ambiguities to be resolved definitively in the OPs' favor.

My concern is the rush that so many posters have to label this boy as a creeper, a stalker, a manipulator, potentially dangerous, going to lie about her to others, going to blame women for everything forever, and I don't know what all else, and to assume all kinds of facts that, rereading the OP's posts, aren't even there.  For example: several people take Jay to task for "getting his mother to call the OP" -- maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anything at all that suggested that he even knew she was calling the OP.  It is at least as likely that he would be totally mortified if he knew.

I don't say -- at all!!!-- that either the OP or her daughter is lying or misrepresenting the exchanges.  But I had teenagers at home not all that long ago -- a boy and a girl -- and I know that they don't always remember and recount things exactly as they happened.  Adults, too.  It's human nature that we remember things in the best light for ourselves (have you ever heard two people recount the same argument?  It's a staple of sitcoms).  The conversations in this story may not have been precisely as we are hearing them third-hand, and we don't know any other context, either. 

Another assumption some posters made is that when she said "okay" in the second conversation, it was clearly an "...okay?" that meant "huh?", not "Oh, well, okay then" -- or even that it reasonably could have sounded like that to an optimistic teenage boy.  At best, it certainly wasn't an adequate way to communicate, "No, I'm sorry for any misunderstanding, but as I told you, I will not be going to the prom" -- which she could have said in just those words. 

I think that his hearing her "okay" as the "yes" he was hoping for is quite possible because she gave him the reason that she was babysitting the first time -- not that that wasn't okay (I think it was great), but it gives a clue to how he would interpret "okay."  As we have often discussed here, sometimes that sounds to people as if you mean, "I would love to, but there's this impediment, but if I can get out of it, I might."  (This is a very typical problem that people have with friends who have trouble saying no -- they think that they should help solve the stated problem.)  That's why we tell people to be polite but clear when declining, as several people have suggested as the takeaway lesson for DD, too.

Like others, I feel that of course DD has every right to have any rules she wants for her dates.  But also like others, I think that it is really unrealistic for her to expect others to know that she doesn't consider something a date unless the guy asks her father for permission.  I have never seen that even once in my own or my kids' teen years -- frankly, to me, that would seem a little off -- it wouldn't feel so much like courtliness as make me wonder what level of importance this kid was expecting this date to have.  If he asked her dad before even asking her, that would seem very presumptuous and even kind of creepy to me, but there's nothing that suggests that that's what she means.  Well, I hope not -- but she said that she didn't think it was a real request for a date because he hadn't asked her father, right?  So wouldn't that have to have happened first?  Or possibly she only said that later to her mom when she was justifying herself?

Let me repeat, if that's the way she wants to approach dating, fine.  I'm only bringing it up as an example of something of a disconnect between her and Jay at the get-go -- a pretty major one, in fact. 

So why assume that Jay is a horrible sicko, when it's just as possible that these are both inexperienced kids who just didn't listen to each other well and didn't communicate clearly, maybe not equally, but so what?  Does someone have to be the bad guy in every situation?

As someone else pointed out upthread, we often say that it's important not to assume the worst motives.  Especially, I would think, with children.

Garden Goblin

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
« Reply #85 on: April 21, 2014, 02:52:04 PM »
So why assume that Jay is a horrible sicko

Please quote where this assumption was made.

Quote
My concern is the rush that so many posters have to label this boy as a creeper, a stalker, a manipulator, potentially dangerous

I'd like to see your reasoning for why his behavior does not qualify as 'manipulative'.

LeveeWoman

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
« Reply #86 on: April 21, 2014, 03:00:27 PM »
I think that his hearing her "okay" as the "yes" he was hoping for is quite possible because she gave him the reason that she was babysitting the first time -- not that that wasn't okay (I think it was great), but it gives a clue to how he would interpret "okay."  As we have often discussed here, sometimes that sounds to people as if you mean, "I would love to, but there's this impediment, but if I can get out of it, I might."

She said the first time that she was not going.

lisztchick

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
« Reply #87 on: April 21, 2014, 03:15:52 PM »
Regarding DD's father's permission for dating:

While it's true that one teenager asking another teenager's father for "permission" to date her is not a societal norm amongst teenagers, bear in mind that neither is The Prom. It's not your average date. The prom is not the sort of event where the guy drives up, toots his horn, and out the girl runs. This is an event that (anymore, it seems!) requires considerable expenditure for all parties involved: dress, tux, tickets, corsage, dinner....I don't know what-all! (And if I were a boy like the one in this situation, I would make certain that I had an emphatic "yes" to my invitation before I spent money....particularly if this was a girl that I wasn't currently dating and barely knew!) The prom is also an event where teenagers may be out several hours later than an average date. There are after-prom events parties that may be attended. I don't know if I'd require a boy to ask my permission prior to asking my daughter to the prom, but I'd certainly want to meet him before he had my daughter out all night! I don't think it's an unreasonable expectation to meet the parents before the event, discuss your plans, transportation, etc.  Perhaps OP's daughter was thinking more along the lines of something like this?

wolfie

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
« Reply #88 on: April 21, 2014, 03:19:10 PM »
Regarding DD's father's permission for dating:

While it's true that one teenager asking another teenager's father for "permission" to date her is not a societal norm amongst teenagers, bear in mind that neither is The Prom. It's not your average date. The prom is not the sort of event where the guy drives up, toots his horn, and out the girl runs. This is an event that (anymore, it seems!) requires considerable expenditure for all parties involved: dress, tux, tickets, corsage, dinner....I don't know what-all! (And if I were a boy like the one in this situation, I would make certain that I had an emphatic "yes" to my invitation before I spent money....particularly if this was a girl that I wasn't currently dating and barely knew!) The prom is also an event where teenagers may be out several hours later than an average date. There are after-prom events parties that may be attended. I don't know if I'd require a boy to ask my permission prior to asking my daughter to the prom, but I'd certainly want to meet him before he had my daughter out all night! I don't think it's an unreasonable expectation to meet the parents before the event, discuss your plans, transportation, etc.  Perhaps OP's daughter was thinking more along the lines of something like this?

I was set up with a friend of a friend for the Prom - no singles were allowed to go in my school. So a friend just had a friend who was a guy and the two of us went "together" so I could go. No meeting of the parents took place. And while i saw the guy when interacting with friends we didn't really have a relationship again. So i wouldn't put that much on this being an extra special type of date - it wasn't in my experience.

YoginiSaysYes

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Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
« Reply #89 on: April 21, 2014, 03:33:40 PM »
My votes go with the consensus!

1) DD was not in the wrong, could maybe have been a little clearer during the second interaction but in no way shape or form is she remotely responsible for Jay's misguided hopes.

2) Jay sounds exactly like the kind of teenage boy one would deem a "creeper". This doesn't mean he's necessarily a bad person, but that he is a (still young!) boy who is perhaps so wrapped up in the idea of "getting a girl" that he'll steamroll over "no"s in attempts to get what he wants. Many boys outgrow the creeper stage, some do not. All those hormones raging about, things can get dicey. (This applies to girls as well, obviously. In high school my friends and I decided the female equivalent of a creeper is a clinger.)

3) Total speculation, but my guess is that Jay told his mom that DD said yes and he bought the tickets, and then when he realized she really wasn't going to go with him, he concocted the story to save face and Mama Bear went ragin'. I doubt he knew about the call, but maybe he did.

I can't wait for an update!