Author Topic: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant  (Read 10056 times)

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Goosey

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Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2014, 01:12:51 PM »
I think you keep switching back and forth from tipping culture vs. wage culture.

You said that the problem with the  $10/20% wages is that it would need to change as determined by market demands, etc.
Posters said, "Yes, this is true in general for every other position. Would it be any different for waiters if they are wage?"
You say, "Tipping culture means it is different than any other position!"

Well, we weren't discussing typing culture, we were discussion moving away from tipping culture into wage culture, right?

And just remember that just because you tip over 20% doesn't mean that if a waiter was working under the $10/20% wage, they'd be making less money. For the extra percentages you provide, a waiter can lose much more if they are stiffed or have a slow night.

lowspark

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Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2014, 02:46:14 PM »
Yes, we're discussing moving away from a tipping culture. But I don't think you can just ignore the way things are now. I may be wrong, but I think that when you have the status quo so deeply ingrained in our way of life and in our way of thinking, it's not just a matter of saying, Ok, today, we switch from doing it this way to doing it that way, and everyone will accept this and everything will fall into place and be just as it should be.

Ideally, of course, that's what happens. But in reality, I question if it would. Restaurant workers have been paid low wages and depended on tips for so long, and, more importantly, restaurant owners have operated this way for so long, that I believe it will be hard to just make the transition overnight. There's likely to be some back slipping.

So yes, we are looking at moving away from the tipping culture. But I think we have to be mindful of where we are coming from, not just where we are going. So it is different, simply because of the existing system which has been in place for so long and will, in my opinion, be difficult to obliterate with a wave of the wand.

It won't just be a matter of saying we're going to do things differently. It's going to be a matter of learning to think of things in a new way. And I don't mean for the customer, I mean for the servers and their employers.

And yes, I'm aware that there are other industries that are commission based. To my knowledge, (and again, I might be wrong about this) their base pay is traditionally pretty low. If I understand it correctly, the base pay for commission salespeople isn't meant to be much, thus incentivizing the workers to perform.

Goosey

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Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2014, 02:58:36 PM »
I know, but no one was contesting that. They were discussion your initial remarks in regards to how the wages would have to change with the market. That's what I'm saying. It just seemed we were talking through each other.

TootsNYC

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Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2014, 03:13:43 PM »
Oh, I agree!

My original post was meant to point out that while $10 might be the right minimum for that restaurant for today, it won't be tomorrow.

But in addition to that, it wouldn't be the right minimum, even today, for every restaurant. Some restaurants, it might be too high and they'll just hit that $10 every time, which would be great for the servers but might break the budget for the restaurant. In some places, it's going to be too low and they'll never hit that $10, even on a bad day. And maybe in some places 20% might be too low if their regular clientele normally tips higher than that.

My point is that it sounds like a great idea and those particular numbers might work for that particular eatery.
But if it were going to be something implemented across the board for a lot of restaurants, those two numbers might need to be tailored for each place and adjusted periodically.

How is that different from any other industry?

Exactly. It's not.
But you know, it actually is. Because the restaurant is already different from other industries by the whole tipping culture. I get paid a salary. I know how much I'm going to make every month. I don't get more or less based on how much business my company does and how much my company's customers want to add to my salary by tipping me.

My company doesn't set a minimum for me that I will make if and only if the company's customers don't already meet and beat that minimum by giving me extra out of their own pockets.

Restaurants (and other businesses whose employees depend on tips) are inherently different from other industries for that reason. Should they be? Should we eliminate the tipping and go to a straight salary or some percentage of sales? Well, that's something we've been debating here for years and, I imagine, will continue to do so. I'd prefer to eliminate the tipping but I don't see it happening.



People who sell on commission do.

kategillian

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Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2014, 03:16:59 PM »
The issue with that no one seems to talk about in a non tipping culture is that the FOOD will cost more. That $10 burger that you had yesterday is now going to cost $13.  $2 for the server and $1 for the busser. Maybe throw in another one for the bartender. It's not that tips will no longer be expected, you just won't see them. You won't have any choice in the matter!  Good service, or bad service. Attentive server or someone who ignores you the entire time and rolls their eyes when you ask for sauce on the side. They'll all get 20%. I admit that I have been a server and bartender for many years, & I certainly would not want to work in a non tipped establishment.

Goosey

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Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2014, 03:22:18 PM »
The issue with that no one seems to talk about in a non tipping culture is that the FOOD will cost more. That $10 burger that you had yesterday is now going to cost $13.  $2 for the server and $1 for the busser. Maybe throw in another one for the bartender. It's not that tips will no longer be expected, you just won't see them. You won't have any choice in the matter!  Good service, or bad service. Attentive server or someone who ignores you the entire time and rolls their eyes when you ask for sauce on the side. They'll all get 20%. I admit that I have been a server and bartender for many years, & I certainly would not want to work in a non tipped establishment.

But no one else is tipped based on how you feel they did their job. A mechanic gets paid no matter what his attitude is when he services your vehicle. If he does poorly or has a bad attitude, he could lose his job or otherwise be affected by his employer. Why should this be different for waitstaff?

There are waitstaff that work for venues that don't get tips. They've been fantastic IME.

I'd have no problem paying more not to tip. That $10 burger would be a $5 tip to me.

ETA: It's actually insulting to assume that if they didn't have to live on tips, waiters and waitresses would do a poor job out of sheer laziness/spite.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 03:24:01 PM by Goosey »

kategillian

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Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2014, 03:35:34 PM »
Hmmm, I guess I didn't think about it like that. But if it's not the money that people objects to in a tipping culture, what is it? I'm not trying to be snarky, I genuinely want to know.

wolfie

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Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2014, 03:45:41 PM »
Hmmm, I guess I didn't think about it like that. But if it's not the money that people objects to in a tipping culture, what is it? I'm not trying to be snarky, I genuinely want to know.

I just hate the practice. I have to figure out how much of a percentage I want to give them and then do math at the end of the table. i don't want to tip more then 20% but considering how many people are bragging about how they always do more then that I dread the day that 20% will become normal instead of the current 15%. I like looking at a price and knowing this is how much I will pay plus tax instead of having to add another 15 - 20% on top of that. It's just a pain.

Goosey

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Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
« Reply #38 on: June 17, 2014, 03:45:49 PM »
Hmmm, I guess I didn't think about it like that. But if it's not the money that people objects to in a tipping culture, what is it? I'm not trying to be snarky, I genuinely want to know.

Servers are taxed based on the tips they "should" get, not  what they actually get.

A server should not work for an hour for someone only to not get paid because the person decided not to tip for reasons outside of the server's control.

Servers can work for hours and make very little money for reasons outside of the server's control.

TootsNYC

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Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
« Reply #39 on: June 17, 2014, 04:05:22 PM »
Hmmm, I guess I didn't think about it like that. But if it's not the money that people objects to in a tipping culture, what is it? I'm not trying to be snarky, I genuinely want to know.

Well, for me personally, I object to tipping culture because it legally allows people to refuse to pay for services they've enjoyed because they simply don't feel like it.

I dislike it because it inserts an aura of uncertainty--am I tipping enough? too much? If I tip a lot, will I create a world in which other people who have less $ feel pressured to tip more?

Onyx_TKD

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Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
« Reply #40 on: June 17, 2014, 04:07:31 PM »
Hmmm, I guess I didn't think about it like that. But if it's not the money that people objects to in a tipping culture, what is it? I'm not trying to be snarky, I genuinely want to know.

Well, for me, I have no desire to be involved in deciding my server's pay. I want to pay for the goods and services I receive, like I do with almost every other good and/or service I purchase, and leave the server's salary between them and their employer. If the service is bad, I can complain to management...just like with any other non-tipped service.* I don't want to have to keep track of the "standard" tip (that society never seems to reach a consensus on and may change from area to area). I don't want to wonder what "message" will be read from my tip and whether it has any relation to my actual level of satisfaction with the service. I don't want to be held responsible for whether or not my server is taking home enough pay--paying their employees is supposed to be the employer's responsibility.

*Incidentally, there are several counter-service places where I regularly buy lunch. Many of the employees know me and I have always received excellent, friendly service. There is no expectation of tipping at any of these places, and if there is any tip jar out, I haven't noticed it and have never used it. That's what I would love to see for sit-down service as well--I pay for what I'm purchasing, their employer pays them for their service and prices the food to accommodate that, and the employees give good service just because it's the right way to perform their jobs (and stay employed).

Also, this:
I dislike it because it inserts an aura of uncertainty--am I tipping enough? too much? If I tip a lot, will I create a world in which other people who have less $ feel pressured to tip more?

lowspark

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Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
« Reply #41 on: June 17, 2014, 04:17:16 PM »
I like looking at a price and knowing this is how much I will pay plus tax

This.
In addition, I'd like to see pricing here like it is in other countries, where tax is also included. At least that's how it was when I visited London several years ago. If the price was marked 5, well, that's exactly what you paid. No more, no less. This went for menu prices and everything else.

Not seeing the final price, listed right there on the menu was a culture shock which my parents, who immigrated to the US before I was born, really never got over. Due to that, they almost never ate in full service restaurants where tipping was required. It just went totally against their grain.

It's just so much cleaner and easier to see the actual price, including everything, right there in front of you, with no additional figuring required.

And I totally agree that it's a ridiculous assumption that servers will suddenly start doing a crummy job simply because they are no longer earning tips. If that were true, the reverse would be true. Every server would now be giving the very best service imaginable since their tips do depend on it. And that certainly isn't the way it is.

Sophia

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Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
« Reply #42 on: June 17, 2014, 04:24:10 PM »
I would avoid the restaurant.  I see it as equivalent to a forced tip which makes me grumpy.
 
I have noticed that the restaurant service in Germany was sub-par until I got my bosses permission to tip 15%, then service was excellent.  There is more to waiting table than taking an order and bringing it to the table.

kategillian

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Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
« Reply #43 on: June 17, 2014, 04:30:03 PM »

And I totally agree that it's a ridiculous assumption that servers will suddenly start doing a crummy job simply because they are no longer earning tips. If that were true, the reverse would be true. Every server would now be giving the very best service imaginable since their tips do depend on it. And that certainly isn't the way it is.
[/quote]

This kind of goes to my point that the decision to be taken out of your hands. Right now if you get bad service it can be reflected in your tip, but if we switch to the other way and you get bad service you won't have a choice.

lowspark

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Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
« Reply #44 on: June 17, 2014, 04:35:40 PM »
Quote
And I totally agree that it's a ridiculous assumption that servers will suddenly start doing a crummy job simply because they are no longer earning tips. If that were true, the reverse would be true. Every server would now be giving the very best service imaginable since their tips do depend on it. And that certainly isn't the way it is.

This kind of goes to my point that the decision to be taken out of your hands. Right now if you get bad service it can be reflected in your tip, but if we switch to the other way and you get bad service you won't have a choice.

To me, it proves that leaving the option to tip in the customer's hands does not guarantee good service.
So by the same token, taking it out of the customer's hands would not incentivize bad service.