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Author Topic: s/o "Aggressive Borrowing": Aggressive Loaning  (Read 7004 times)

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catwhiskers

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Re: s/o "Aggressive Borrowing": Aggressive Loaning
« Reply #45 on: September 13, 2015, 01:14:50 PM »
LOL Bellantara, my mom's dog does that too! She'll just bring me random things. "Here. This for you. Is awesome." *wag wag wag*

Oh yes, I know this one. Bonus points when it's half a dead rat that one of the cats left on the patio and all the innards are hanging out. Ick.

Dawse

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Re: s/o "Aggressive Borrowing": Aggressive Loaning
« Reply #46 on: September 13, 2015, 01:17:41 PM »
I actually thought of one case where I was the culprit in this.

I had a cool vintage 1960s-style black cashmere swing coat that was full enough to accommodate a pregnancy. Almost every winter, one friend or another borrowed the coat, some for the brief Florida winter.

One year, one of my co-workers, "Amy," was due in February. I asked her in October if she wanted to use the coat, and she made a politely vague "hmmm, thank you" sort of noise. So I brought it in and hung it up in the coat area. She never got it, and it was starting to get nippy, so I asked her a few times about it. Finally another coworker who had worn the coat (and liked it) kindly clued me in that Amy had absolutely zero interest in the coat and didn't want to take it home because then she'd feel obligated to have it drycleaned before she returned it.

I probably should have apologized for pushing the coat on Amy, but instead I just took it home and never mentioned it again. We continued friendly work acquaintances, which was the best outcome, I think.

I'm going to let you off the hook for that one, because she never actually said 'no', did she? Polite vagueness is a whole lot less helpful than a polite 'thanks but no thanks'. She could have said she wasn't interested at any point, and you, being the reasonable person that you are, would have stopped offering a lot sooner and you could have all gone on your merry ways, she without borrowing the unneeded coat and you without the unnecessary guilt of feeling like you accidentally forced it on her.

One of my pet hates, when people don't say what they mean and expect you to magically intuit what they want.
'A troth, by the way, is a small furry creature with fins, the offspring of a trout and a sloth. I often wonder what they saw in each other, but then I suppose the sloth, being upside down, would tend to have a different slant on things.'

KenveeB

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Re: s/o "Aggressive Borrowing": Aggressive Loaning
« Reply #47 on: September 13, 2015, 05:28:24 PM »
I actually thought of one case where I was the culprit in this.

I had a cool vintage 1960s-style black cashmere swing coat that was full enough to accommodate a pregnancy. Almost every winter, one friend or another borrowed the coat, some for the brief Florida winter.

One year, one of my co-workers, "Amy," was due in February. I asked her in October if she wanted to use the coat, and she made a politely vague "hmmm, thank you" sort of noise. So I brought it in and hung it up in the coat area. She never got it, and it was starting to get nippy, so I asked her a few times about it. Finally another coworker who had worn the coat (and liked it) kindly clued me in that Amy had absolutely zero interest in the coat and didn't want to take it home because then she'd feel obligated to have it drycleaned before she returned it.

I probably should have apologized for pushing the coat on Amy, but instead I just took it home and never mentioned it again. We continued friendly work acquaintances, which was the best outcome, I think.

I'm going to let you off the hook for that one, because she never actually said 'no', did she? Polite vagueness is a whole lot less helpful than a polite 'thanks but no thanks'. She could have said she wasn't interested at any point, and you, being the reasonable person that you are, would have stopped offering a lot sooner and you could have all gone on your merry ways, she without borrowing the unneeded coat and you without the unnecessary guilt of feeling like you accidentally forced it on her.

One of my pet hates, when people don't say what they mean and expect you to magically intuit what they want
.

I hate and despise that. I'm a straightforward person. Just tell me yes or no. Do it in a nice way, not "ew, that's horrible, I'd never want something like that!", but just say no if you don't want it!

TootsNYC

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Re: s/o "Aggressive Borrowing": Aggressive Loaning
« Reply #48 on: September 13, 2015, 06:10:42 PM »
Or, "say yes if you do," and she didn't say yes.

wordgirl

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Re: s/o "Aggressive Borrowing": Aggressive Loaning
« Reply #49 on: September 14, 2015, 10:32:10 AM »
In this case, I probably should have gotten a clue a little sooner, but I didn't feel *terrible* about it. Bonus: I actually got to wear my own coat for a winter!

catwhiskers, thank heavens the dog doesn't bring me half-rats. It's more along the lines of "things that were on the floor that strictly speaking, should not be on the floor" - socks, little toys, paper towels, etc. Maybe the dog is just a neat freak! (In which case, she picked the wrong family to adopt.)

Black Delphinium

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Re: s/o "Aggressive Borrowing": Aggressive Loaning
« Reply #50 on: September 14, 2015, 10:46:19 AM »
Right now I have two DVDs on my bedside table that belong to my Nan. I didn't want to borrow them, then I agreed to take one, and she insisted I take both. I want to give them back but I want to be able to tell her what I thought of them, so I have to watch at least an hour. I just really don't want to! Sorry Nan. They're right there and you'll get them back one day. At least she has plenty of DVDs and subscription TV so I know she's not sitting around with nothing to watch.
Why not just read the wikipedia summaries? Less time consuming.
When angels go bad, they go worse than anyone. Remember, Lucifer was an angel. ~The Marquis De Carabas

Black Delphinium

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Re: s/o "Aggressive Borrowing": Aggressive Loaning
« Reply #51 on: September 14, 2015, 10:47:22 AM »
Food Pushers are thick as thieves here, as southern hospitality dictates you always offer food and drink to visitors.
Unfortunately for me, my celiac disease makes it necessary for me to turn down most all offers, with a "oh, no thank you, but that sounds delicious!".
I can count on one hand the number of people who have taken that at face value and have moved on, but most continue to try to convince me it is the most delicious thing in the world and I just must try some- necessitating me to finally give up and say- "unfortunately I have a food allergy, so I can't"- which I HATE to do, and makes me feel like the a-hole because then they feel bad for giving me down the road-
which wouldn't have happened if they had taken my no for an answer in the first place!
I know we're anti-JADEing, but why not just lead with "It looks delicious, but I have an allergy"? Save you both the trouble.
When angels go bad, they go worse than anyone. Remember, Lucifer was an angel. ~The Marquis De Carabas

Lynn2000

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Re: s/o "Aggressive Borrowing": Aggressive Loaning
« Reply #52 on: September 14, 2015, 10:50:43 AM »
Regarding the coat--I do think there's an awkward little dance that sometimes happens, when you're trying to be generous but not pushy, and sometimes we just don't get it right. A lot of the people I know genuinely forget they wanted to borrow something, or loan something, so I often feel like I have to push just a smidge and be like, "So, did you want to borrow the thing/loan me the thing, or not?" And often the response is an enthusiastic, "Yes, I totally forgot! Let's take care of that."

I like to make the "or not" explicit somehow--"or did you change your mind/do you still need it/are you still loaning it out" etc.. Give them a face-saving reason they can grab onto if they've changed their mind (or never wanted to in the first place), and force them to actively agree if they do still want it.

Regarding food--I usually say, "No thanks" once, and then if pushed a second time, I say something about my restricted diet. On the one hand I don't really like discussing personal stuff like that, especially because people often ask follow-up questions at that point; but on the other hand, it seems to make the whole experience more awkward if I don't tell them I can't eat the food until several steps in. Then it's kind of like, "Why didn't you just tell me that at the beginning?" and I'm like, "Why didn't you just take my first 'no' seriously?"
~Lynn2000

Kiwipinball

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Re: s/o "Aggressive Borrowing": Aggressive Loaning
« Reply #53 on: September 14, 2015, 12:11:06 PM »
Regarding the coat--I do think there's an awkward little dance that sometimes happens, when you're trying to be generous but not pushy, and sometimes we just don't get it right. A lot of the people I know genuinely forget they wanted to borrow something, or loan something, so I often feel like I have to push just a smidge and be like, "So, did you want to borrow the thing/loan me the thing, or not?" And often the response is an enthusiastic, "Yes, I totally forgot! Let's take care of that."

I like to make the "or not" explicit somehow--"or did you change your mind/do you still need it/are you still loaning it out" etc.. Give them a face-saving reason they can grab onto if they've changed their mind (or never wanted to in the first place), and force them to actively agree if they do still want it.

Regarding food--I usually say, "No thanks" once, and then if pushed a second time, I say something about my restricted diet. On the one hand I don't really like discussing personal stuff like that, especially because people often ask follow-up questions at that point; but on the other hand, it seems to make the whole experience more awkward if I don't tell them I can't eat the food until several steps in. Then it's kind of like, "Why didn't you just tell me that at the beginning?" and I'm like, "Why didn't you just take my first 'no' seriously?"

I think part of the problem is that in some cultures/sub-cultures, it's polite to say no the first time or two. Whether it's food or something else. I'm pretty straight-forward but if someone was making an extremely generous offer to me, I'd probably at least start with a "Oh, you don't have to do that" or something similar. So then the offerer is in the position of not knowing if the offeree is really saying no or is just being polite but really does want something.

TootsNYC

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Re: s/o "Aggressive Borrowing": Aggressive Loaning
« Reply #54 on: September 14, 2015, 12:13:17 PM »
Also, what the coat looks like might make a difference. I can see me bringing it in on my colleague's "maybe" so she can see it, and because she might hesitate now and give in once she realizes what a pain it's going to be.

But I wouldn't feel miffed about her refusal (nor did wordgirl).

Lynn2000

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Re: s/o "Aggressive Borrowing": Aggressive Loaning
« Reply #55 on: September 14, 2015, 02:55:04 PM »
Regarding the coat--I do think there's an awkward little dance that sometimes happens, when you're trying to be generous but not pushy, and sometimes we just don't get it right. A lot of the people I know genuinely forget they wanted to borrow something, or loan something, so I often feel like I have to push just a smidge and be like, "So, did you want to borrow the thing/loan me the thing, or not?" And often the response is an enthusiastic, "Yes, I totally forgot! Let's take care of that."

I like to make the "or not" explicit somehow--"or did you change your mind/do you still need it/are you still loaning it out" etc.. Give them a face-saving reason they can grab onto if they've changed their mind (or never wanted to in the first place), and force them to actively agree if they do still want it.

Regarding food--I usually say, "No thanks" once, and then if pushed a second time, I say something about my restricted diet. On the one hand I don't really like discussing personal stuff like that, especially because people often ask follow-up questions at that point; but on the other hand, it seems to make the whole experience more awkward if I don't tell them I can't eat the food until several steps in. Then it's kind of like, "Why didn't you just tell me that at the beginning?" and I'm like, "Why didn't you just take my first 'no' seriously?"

I think part of the problem is that in some cultures/sub-cultures, it's polite to say no the first time or two. Whether it's food or something else. I'm pretty straight-forward but if someone was making an extremely generous offer to me, I'd probably at least start with a "Oh, you don't have to do that" or something similar. So then the offerer is in the position of not knowing if the offeree is really saying no or is just being polite but really does want something.

Agreed. And I don't necessarily think that's a bad custom, it's just that you have to know it exists, and be familiar enough with that particular person to realize when they're being serious. Like one of my co-workers is from a certain culture that doesn't like to use the word "no," but by now I know that if he says something like, "Hmmm, it would be difficult," he's really trying to say, "no thank you, I really mean it." Most of my misunderstandings, at least, have happened with people I don't know very well.
~Lynn2000

Kiwipinball

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Re: s/o "Aggressive Borrowing": Aggressive Loaning
« Reply #56 on: September 14, 2015, 09:35:27 PM »
Regarding the coat--I do think there's an awkward little dance that sometimes happens, when you're trying to be generous but not pushy, and sometimes we just don't get it right. A lot of the people I know genuinely forget they wanted to borrow something, or loan something, so I often feel like I have to push just a smidge and be like, "So, did you want to borrow the thing/loan me the thing, or not?" And often the response is an enthusiastic, "Yes, I totally forgot! Let's take care of that."

I like to make the "or not" explicit somehow--"or did you change your mind/do you still need it/are you still loaning it out" etc.. Give them a face-saving reason they can grab onto if they've changed their mind (or never wanted to in the first place), and force them to actively agree if they do still want it.

Regarding food--I usually say, "No thanks" once, and then if pushed a second time, I say something about my restricted diet. On the one hand I don't really like discussing personal stuff like that, especially because people often ask follow-up questions at that point; but on the other hand, it seems to make the whole experience more awkward if I don't tell them I can't eat the food until several steps in. Then it's kind of like, "Why didn't you just tell me that at the beginning?" and I'm like, "Why didn't you just take my first 'no' seriously?"

I think part of the problem is that in some cultures/sub-cultures, it's polite to say no the first time or two. Whether it's food or something else. I'm pretty straight-forward but if someone was making an extremely generous offer to me, I'd probably at least start with a "Oh, you don't have to do that" or something similar. So then the offerer is in the position of not knowing if the offeree is really saying no or is just being polite but really does want something.

Agreed. And I don't necessarily think that's a bad custom, it's just that you have to know it exists, and be familiar enough with that particular person to realize when they're being serious. Like one of my co-workers is from a certain culture that doesn't like to use the word "no," but by now I know that if he says something like, "Hmmm, it would be difficult," he's really trying to say, "no thank you, I really mean it." Most of my misunderstandings, at least, have happened with people I don't know very well.

I agree. I think it probably used to be easier back when there was very little mobility (travel or moving) - if you're raised with a tradition, it's no problem. Issues can start to arise when you have people from two different cultures  who don't know about/understand the other way. Some may be offended by the rudeness of offering only once or the incessant pushiness of the other. Assuming that people mean well (unless they prove otherwise) is generally the best way to go. :)

Wintergreen

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Re: s/o "Aggressive Borrowing": Aggressive Loaning
« Reply #57 on: September 15, 2015, 02:48:21 AM »
Regarding the coat--I do think there's an awkward little dance that sometimes happens, when you're trying to be generous but not pushy, and sometimes we just don't get it right. A lot of the people I know genuinely forget they wanted to borrow something, or loan something, so I often feel like I have to push just a smidge and be like, "So, did you want to borrow the thing/loan me the thing, or not?" And often the response is an enthusiastic, "Yes, I totally forgot! Let's take care of that."

I like to make the "or not" explicit somehow--"or did you change your mind/do you still need it/are you still loaning it out" etc.. Give them a face-saving reason they can grab onto if they've changed their mind (or never wanted to in the first place), and force them to actively agree if they do still want it.

Ooooo! I agree. I just had case like this (though not with loaning, but giving). It's really hard to find the line when you are being too pushy and not getting soft "no"s  or when it's just reminding because others just forget things when life gets in the way. But sometimes you have time limits of your own, it's not as you can wait forever to know if somebody will have it or not. I had to contact few times. But I too tried to make clear that even if she first wanted it, there is no obligation to get it now, but if she still wants it, my time limits are nearing.

knitwicca

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Re: s/o "Aggressive Borrowing": Aggressive Loaning
« Reply #58 on: September 15, 2015, 11:25:59 AM »

I think part of the problem is that in some cultures/sub-cultures, it's polite to say no the first time or two. Whether it's food or something else. I'm pretty straight-forward but if someone was making an extremely generous offer to me, I'd probably at least start with a "Oh, you don't have to do that" or something similar. So then the offerer is in the position of not knowing if the offeree is really saying no or is just being polite but really does want something.

My mother's parents were sharecroppers during the depression.  For them and their neighbors, to accept food on the first offering was terribly rude because it was often the children's food being offered to an adult visitor. Accepting a sweet of any sort was the height of rudeness because those were so incredibly rare.

When I was a child, our family would be invited to someone's home for dinner. We were under strict orders to (a) never accept any food on the first offer, (b) always ask for a smaller portion than offered and (c) under no circumstances were we to accept a sweet...dessert or not.  My brothers and I hated going with our parents to their friend's homes because we were always hungry an unable to accept a second helping - or even a full sized first. Think of two high school athletes over 6 ft tall having to share a hamburger in order to comply with our parents' directives.

Sometimes etiquette is taken far past its' intended use.