Author Topic: If You Call After Business Hours - You Do Not Have a Scheduled Appointment  (Read 9474 times)

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miranova

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Re: If You Call After Business Hours - You Do Not Have a Scheduled Appointment
« Reply #105 on: August 24, 2014, 05:05:47 PM »
I'm going on the assumption that the student didn't hear the message before 4:30.  After all, if she wasn't interested or responsible, she wouldn't have called back at all and wouldn't have shown up promptly at 8am.  So, assuming she didn't get the message until later, she did the only thing she could do:  leave a voicemail for the OP assuming OP would hear it first thing in the morning, got up, got ready, and arrived early.  Seems pretty responsible to me.  After all her other option was to assume the appointments were no longer available and not show up at all.  If she was the slightest bit unsure, I think leaving a VM and showing up is the right thing to do, especially since there was no time in between to call and wait for an answer.  If she did that, she would have missed both the 8:30 and 9:00 slots. 

Now, if you had told her "I'm sorry I didn't know you were coming, Lisa isn't here, let's reschedule", and she had gotten indignant or something, then I could understand thinking her rude.  But I'm leaning toward someone who did everything they could to show up and be responsible rather than just looking like a no-show.

I can appreciate that there wasn't a lot of time and that's not anyone's fault but in my opinion that means that you need to cut her some slack on just showing up.  She only got the message the night before and is likely thinking that since class starts the following week, she may not get another chance at this interview.  No one's fault that the timeline was really tight, but I think under those circumstances you have to be a little flexible to other people's schedules as well.  I'm not saying you should answer the phone at night, just that you maybe should understand why she just showed up...she didn't have a lot of options at that point.  I bet if she had 2-3 days to schedule the appointment, there would have been more time for her to connect with you during your office hours.

Surianne

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Re: If You Call After Business Hours - You Do Not Have a Scheduled Appointment
« Reply #106 on: August 24, 2014, 05:40:25 PM »
If this had been me in college, I wouldn't have gotten your message until 10 or 11 pm. I went to school full time and worked several hours a night after that. I wasn't allowed to even have my cell phone on me during work, much less check my messages. If a full day had passed, and she had not called back until 9:30pm the next day, then I think it's fair to say she was at fault. But since you made the appointment and expected a response that very same day, I'm not sure what else you expected her to do. Students have to go to class, study, and work. They keep weird hours by necessity.

If Lisa had been in the office on time that morning, and the student hadn't shown up, would you be complaining about how inconsiderate she was then?

In that case, the student should have called and said, "I am sorry but I didn't get your message until late. I would like the 8:30 slot if that's still available, but if not, I'm available at the following times (list availablity). Please call me in the morning and let me know if I can still come for 8:30." Then if I didn't hear back I would phone after 8 AM.

At our office (not student related) we come and go based on appointment times that have been set in stone, so if we heard nothing back and you showed up anyway (or if you called in the night and left a message after everyone had left) you are likely to find nobody there.

The student likely isn't psychic, so I'm not sure how she could have known the exact, perfect thing to say.  I don't see how she did a single thing rudely in this situation.  Many of us have said the OP's message was unclear -- if it confuses multiple people, of course it would confuse the student, too.  She probably really wanted the interview and did the best she could.

It's not psychic, it's common sense. If I came home at 10 PM to a voice mail that had been left much earlier in the day, offering an appointment for first thing in the next morning, it'd be pretty obvious to me that I'd got the message too late, and while I might try leaving a voice mail for the first person who checks it in the morning, and while I might try to call the office again first thing in the morning, I'd never assume that being offered a choice of times by voice mail meant that I was written in for one of those times. The OP did say the student had been offered the option of suggesting a different date and time if neither of those worked for her. I just can't even fathom that it would be so difficult to think up, "I didn't get the message until late - can I still have the 8:30 time, or if not, do you have anything late afternoon Wed or early Thursday?"

I don't find the OP's message confusing at all.

That's great that you didn't find the OP's message confusing.  However, the sheer number of us in this thread who are adults and intelligent people who *did* find the message confusing, I think demonstrates that it's not entirely clear. 

The insults throughout this thread -- saying that anyone stupid enough to not understand the message needs to grow up, for example -- are completely uncalled for, in my opinion.  The student's interpretation of the message is the same as maybe 50% of us in the thread.  So it's not that clear, if multiple people have trouble with it. 

miranova

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Re: If You Call After Business Hours - You Do Not Have a Scheduled Appointment
« Reply #107 on: August 24, 2014, 07:15:53 PM »
If this had been me in college, I wouldn't have gotten your message until 10 or 11 pm. I went to school full time and worked several hours a night after that. I wasn't allowed to even have my cell phone on me during work, much less check my messages. If a full day had passed, and she had not called back until 9:30pm the next day, then I think it's fair to say she was at fault. But since you made the appointment and expected a response that very same day, I'm not sure what else you expected her to do. Students have to go to class, study, and work. They keep weird hours by necessity.

If Lisa had been in the office on time that morning, and the student hadn't shown up, would you be complaining about how inconsiderate she was then?

In that case, the student should have called and said, "I am sorry but I didn't get your message until late. I would like the 8:30 slot if that's still available, but if not, I'm available at the following times (list availablity). Please call me in the morning and let me know if I can still come for 8:30." Then if I didn't hear back I would phone after 8 AM.

At our office (not student related) we come and go based on appointment times that have been set in stone, so if we heard nothing back and you showed up anyway (or if you called in the night and left a message after everyone had left) you are likely to find nobody there.

The student likely isn't psychic, so I'm not sure how she could have known the exact, perfect thing to say.  I don't see how she did a single thing rudely in this situation.  Many of us have said the OP's message was unclear -- if it confuses multiple people, of course it would confuse the student, too.  She probably really wanted the interview and did the best she could.

It's not psychic, it's common sense. If I came home at 10 PM to a voice mail that had been left much earlier in the day, offering an appointment for first thing in the next morning, it'd be pretty obvious to me that I'd got the message too late, and while I might try leaving a voice mail for the first person who checks it in the morning, and while I might try to call the office again first thing in the morning, I'd never assume that being offered a choice of times by voice mail meant that I was written in for one of those times.

And I would never assume that I should just stay home when I've been given two possible times and that maybe someone was expecting me or coming in for the sole purpose of interviewing me.  Yes, it's not set in stone, but that's the entire problem.  It's not set in stone, and the student didn't want to risk someone waiting for her and feeling like she just didn't show up.  She erred on the side of caution here.  To me that would show initiative, not rudeness.  If the interviewer wasn't available, fine, but what is the harm in her getting there first thing in the morning just in case?  We don't know what would have happened if the OP would have asked her to come back at 11am.  Maybe she would have been perfectly happy to do that.  She was there when she thought the interviewer would be there, and she had a reasonable expectation that someone might have listened to her voicemail first thing and knew she was coming. 

Yvaine

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Re: If You Call After Business Hours - You Do Not Have a Scheduled Appointment
« Reply #108 on: August 24, 2014, 08:13:03 PM »
And I would never assume that I should just stay home when I've been given two possible times and that maybe someone was expecting me or coming in for the sole purpose of interviewing me.  Yes, it's not set in stone, but that's the entire problem.  It's not set in stone, and the student didn't want to risk someone waiting for her and feeling like she just didn't show up.  She erred on the side of caution here.  To me that would show initiative, not rudeness.  If the interviewer wasn't available, fine, but what is the harm in her getting there first thing in the morning just in case?  We don't know what would have happened if the OP would have asked her to come back at 11am.  Maybe she would have been perfectly happy to do that.  She was there when she thought the interviewer would be there, and she had a reasonable expectation that someone might have listened to her voicemail first thing and knew she was coming.

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Hmmmmm

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Re: If You Call After Business Hours - You Do Not Have a Scheduled Appointment
« Reply #109 on: August 24, 2014, 09:02:52 PM »
If this had been me in college, I wouldn't have gotten your message until 10 or 11 pm. I went to school full time and worked several hours a night after that. I wasn't allowed to even have my cell phone on me during work, much less check my messages. If a full day had passed, and she had not called back until 9:30pm the next day, then I think it's fair to say she was at fault. But since you made the appointment and expected a response that very same day, I'm not sure what else you expected her to do. Students have to go to class, study, and work. They keep weird hours by necessity.

If Lisa had been in the office on time that morning, and the student hadn't shown up, would you be complaining about how inconsiderate she was then?

In that case, the student should have called and said, "I am sorry but I didn't get your message until late. I would like the 8:30 slot if that's still available, but if not, I'm available at the following times (list availablity). Please call me in the morning and let me know if I can still come for 8:30." Then if I didn't hear back I would phone after 8 AM.

At our office (not student related) we come and go based on appointment times that have been set in stone, so if we heard nothing back and you showed up anyway (or if you called in the night and left a message after everyone had left) you are likely to find nobody there.

The student likely isn't psychic, so I'm not sure how she could have known the exact, perfect thing to say.  I don't see how she did a single thing rudely in this situation.  Many of us have said the OP's message was unclear -- if it confuses multiple people, of course it would confuse the student, too.  She probably really wanted the interview and did the best she could.

It's not psychic, it's common sense. If I came home at 10 PM to a voice mail that had been left much earlier in the day, offering an appointment for first thing in the next morning, it'd be pretty obvious to me that I'd got the message too late, and while I might try leaving a voice mail for the first person who checks it in the morning, and while I might try to call the office again first thing in the morning, I'd never assume that being offered a choice of times by voice mail meant that I was written in for one of those times. The OP did say the student had been offered the option of suggesting a different date and time if neither of those worked for her. I just can't even fathom that it would be so difficult to think up, "I didn't get the message until late - can I still have the 8:30 time, or if not, do you have anything late afternoon Wed or early Thursday?"

I don't find the OP's message confusing at all.

But why is t too late to confirm at 8am for a 8:30am appointment? The OP said her office hours start at 8. The message was left prior to that. She didn't say confirmation had to be the previous day. If the options were 10am or 10:30am would you still feel same day confirmation was not appropriate?

Tea Drinker

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Re: If You Call After Business Hours - You Do Not Have a Scheduled Appointment
« Reply #110 on: August 24, 2014, 09:47:41 PM »
If this had been me in college, I wouldn't have gotten your message until 10 or 11 pm. I went to school full time and worked several hours a night after that. I wasn't allowed to even have my cell phone on me during work, much less check my messages. If a full day had passed, and she had not called back until 9:30pm the next day, then I think it's fair to say she was at fault. But since you made the appointment and expected a response that very same day, I'm not sure what else you expected her to do. Students have to go to class, study, and work. They keep weird hours by necessity.

If Lisa had been in the office on time that morning, and the student hadn't shown up, would you be complaining about how inconsiderate she was then?

In that case, the student should have called and said, "I am sorry but I didn't get your message until late. I would like the 8:30 slot if that's still available, but if not, I'm available at the following times (list availablity). Please call me in the morning and let me know if I can still come for 8:30." Then if I didn't hear back I would phone after 8 AM.

At our office (not student related) we come and go based on appointment times that have been set in stone, so if we heard nothing back and you showed up anyway (or if you called in the night and left a message after everyone had left) you are likely to find nobody there.

The student likely isn't psychic, so I'm not sure how she could have known the exact, perfect thing to say.  I don't see how she did a single thing rudely in this situation.  Many of us have said the OP's message was unclear -- if it confuses multiple people, of course it would confuse the student, too.  She probably really wanted the interview and did the best she could.

It's not psychic, it's common sense. If I came home at 10 PM to a voice mail that had been left much earlier in the day, offering an appointment for first thing in the next morning, it'd be pretty obvious to me that I'd got the message too late, and while I might try leaving a voice mail for the first person who checks it in the morning, and while I might try to call the office again first thing in the morning, I'd never assume that being offered a choice of times by voice mail meant that I was written in for one of those times. The OP did say the student had been offered the option of suggesting a different date and time if neither of those worked for her. I just can't even fathom that it would be so difficult to think up, "I didn't get the message until late - can I still have the 8:30 time, or if not, do you have anything late afternoon Wed or early Thursday?"

I don't find the OP's message confusing at all.

But why is t too late to confirm at 8am for a 8:30am appointment? The OP said her office hours start at 8. The message was left prior to that. She didn't say confirmation had to be the previous day. If the options were 10am or 10:30am would you still feel same day confirmation was not appropriate?

Depending on how far away the student lives, and how she would be traveling, it might be impossible or illegal/unsafe to confirm between 8 and 8:30, unless you count calling from outside the building at 8:27. If she's trying to get there by subway, there might be no cell phone signal, and calling while driving is both a safety risk and illegal in many places. (Yes, a particularly cautious person might aim to get to the interview location at 8:00 so she'd have an extra half hour in case of massive traffic problems--but she might also decided to aim for 8:20 in order to get 15 or 20 minutes' more sleep.)
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Surianne

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Re: If You Call After Business Hours - You Do Not Have a Scheduled Appointment
« Reply #111 on: August 24, 2014, 10:14:06 PM »
But why is t too late to confirm at 8am for a 8:30am appointment? The OP said her office hours start at 8. The message was left prior to that. She didn't say confirmation had to be the previous day. If the options were 10am or 10:30am would you still feel same day confirmation was not appropriate?

Depending on how far away the student lives, and how she would be traveling, it might be impossible or illegal/unsafe to confirm between 8 and 8:30, unless you count calling from outside the building at 8:27. If she's trying to get there by subway, there might be no cell phone signal, and calling while driving is both a safety risk and illegal in many places. (Yes, a particularly cautious person might aim to get to the interview location at 8:00 so she'd have an extra half hour in case of massive traffic problems--but she might also decided to aim for 8:20 in order to get 15 or 20 minutes' more sleep.)

She confirmed the night before, around 9:30pm, so I don't think that it's reasonable or logical to declare her a safety risk for coming in at 8am in case she had the interview slot.  There's zero indication that the student was rushing or doing anything illegal.

Xandraea

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Re: If You Call After Business Hours - You Do Not Have a Scheduled Appointment
« Reply #112 on: August 24, 2014, 11:09:13 PM »
But why is t too late to confirm at 8am for a 8:30am appointment? The OP said her office hours start at 8. The message was left prior to that. She didn't say confirmation had to be the previous day. If the options were 10am or 10:30am would you still feel same day confirmation was not appropriate?

Depending on how far away the student lives, and how she would be traveling, it might be impossible or illegal/unsafe to confirm between 8 and 8:30, unless you count calling from outside the building at 8:27. If she's trying to get there by subway, there might be no cell phone signal, and calling while driving is both a safety risk and illegal in many places. (Yes, a particularly cautious person might aim to get to the interview location at 8:00 so she'd have an extra half hour in case of massive traffic problems--but she might also decided to aim for 8:20 in order to get 15 or 20 minutes' more sleep.)

She confirmed the night before, around 9:30pm, so I don't think that it's reasonable or logical to declare her a safety risk for coming in at 8am in case she had the interview slot.  There's zero indication that the student was rushing or doing anything illegal.

I believe Tea Drinker was responding to the question about 8am being too late to confirm the appointment. The student may have had a ways to travel, so if she aimed to get there before the 8:30am appointment, she may have had to leave before 8:00 to get there, and that confirming on the way may have been impossible. Thus, she called the night before, and headed out to be there in the morning just in case the time was still available and she could be seen for the interview. Calling at 8am and waiting for a response before leaving for an 8:30am appointment wouldn't have worked, so she took a chance and showed up, perhaps assuming someone had gotten there at 8am and had heard her message from the night before and thus was expecting her.

Raintree

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Re: If You Call After Business Hours - You Do Not Have a Scheduled Appointment
« Reply #113 on: August 25, 2014, 03:06:57 AM »
All fine - the student made an effort to get to the early morning appointment despite (we assume) not getting the message in time to call and accept one of the time slots. (And I do think if you are offered a choice of two, with the option of arranging some other time if neither of those is convenient, means you have to pick one of the options before anyone's going to write it in as set in stone).

It's great that she came, but then she said "I'm here for my appointment." She didn't have one. Better to say, "I'm here, in case that appointment is still available." And I think it would have been perfectly fine for the OP to say, "Sorry, Lisa didn't know you were coming and is out of the office at the moment. We will have to reschedule." Although, kudos to Lisa for busting her butt to get there and save the student a load of hassle.   

Raintree

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Re: If You Call After Business Hours - You Do Not Have a Scheduled Appointment
« Reply #114 on: August 25, 2014, 03:12:10 AM »
If this had been me in college, I wouldn't have gotten your message until 10 or 11 pm. I went to school full time and worked several hours a night after that. I wasn't allowed to even have my cell phone on me during work, much less check my messages. If a full day had passed, and she had not called back until 9:30pm the next day, then I think it's fair to say she was at fault. But since you made the appointment and expected a response that very same day, I'm not sure what else you expected her to do. Students have to go to class, study, and work. They keep weird hours by necessity.

If Lisa had been in the office on time that morning, and the student hadn't shown up, would you be complaining about how inconsiderate she was then?

In that case, the student should have called and said, "I am sorry but I didn't get your message until late. I would like the 8:30 slot if that's still available, but if not, I'm available at the following times (list availablity). Please call me in the morning and let me know if I can still come for 8:30." Then if I didn't hear back I would phone after 8 AM.

At our office (not student related) we come and go based on appointment times that have been set in stone, so if we heard nothing back and you showed up anyway (or if you called in the night and left a message after everyone had left) you are likely to find nobody there.

The student likely isn't psychic, so I'm not sure how she could have known the exact, perfect thing to say.  I don't see how she did a single thing rudely in this situation.  Many of us have said the OP's message was unclear -- if it confuses multiple people, of course it would confuse the student, too.  She probably really wanted the interview and did the best she could.

It's not psychic, it's common sense. If I came home at 10 PM to a voice mail that had been left much earlier in the day, offering an appointment for first thing in the next morning, it'd be pretty obvious to me that I'd got the message too late, and while I might try leaving a voice mail for the first person who checks it in the morning, and while I might try to call the office again first thing in the morning, I'd never assume that being offered a choice of times by voice mail meant that I was written in for one of those times. The OP did say the student had been offered the option of suggesting a different date and time if neither of those worked for her. I just can't even fathom that it would be so difficult to think up, "I didn't get the message until late - can I still have the 8:30 time, or if not, do you have anything late afternoon Wed or early Thursday?"

I don't find the OP's message confusing at all.

That's great that you didn't find the OP's message confusing.  However, the sheer number of us in this thread who are adults and intelligent people who *did* find the message confusing, I think demonstrates that it's not entirely clear. 

The insults throughout this thread -- saying that anyone stupid enough to not understand the message needs to grow up, for example -- are completely uncalled for, in my opinion. The student's interpretation of the message is the same as maybe 50% of us in the thread.  So it's not that clear, if multiple people have trouble with it.

I didn't see those comments; they certainly weren't mine. I just don't see how "knowing the exact, perfect thing to say" means you have to be psychic. Most people don't know the exact, perfect thing to say, which is why on this forum in general, we come up with suggestions and opinions on what's right/polite to say and do, and who was rude, and who wasn't, and who was in the wrong, and who wasn't. Not sure where the paranormal comes into this.

Wordgeek

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Re: If You Call After Business Hours - You Do Not Have a Scheduled Appointment
« Reply #115 on: August 25, 2014, 08:44:38 AM »
Closed because useful discussion has stopped.