News: IT'S THE 2ND ANNUAL GUATEMALA LIBRARY PROJECT BOOK DRIVE!    LOOKING FOR DONATIONS OF SCIENCE BOOKS THIS YEAR.    Check it out in the "Extending the Hand of Kindness" folder or here: http://www.etiquettehell.com/smf/index.php?topic=139832.msg3372084#msg3372084   

  • November 23, 2017, 04:34:25 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: This book is full of "interesting assumptions".  (Read 20606 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

GreenEyedHawk

  • Member
  • Posts: 2486
  • Not hot but SPICY
    • My Facebook.  Feel free to add me!
Re: This book is full of "interesting assumptions".
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2016, 11:37:21 AM »
I was thinking the same as HoundMom.  I wouldn't want a photo of me published in a book without my knowledge or permission.   Especially not one that, no matter what was actually going on in the photo, makes me look like a judgemental jerk.  Most of the people she seems to think are mocking/sneering/whatever look like they are not looking at her.  Should I just keep my eyes on the ground for fear of inadvertently offending someone?  If I were one of the people in the backgrounds of those pics, I wouldn't be very happy.  It seems to me like the photographer is judging strangers just as harshly as she seems to think they are judging her.
"After all this time?"
"Always."

Tierrainney

  • Member
  • Posts: 1203
  • Where the swans winter
Re: This book is full of "interesting assumptions".
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2016, 11:41:36 AM »
I looked at her photos. They are not typical Selfies. Her camera must be on a tripod or drone or something as in none of them is her arm shown to be holding a camera.

I would be looking at her camera, too, as this is not a typical thing to see around me. And depending on the moment, I could be smiling, frowning or just looking lost. The one with the teen behind her in the pink bikini, looks exactly like I would expect of someone noticing a camera pointed her way, she appears to be looking past the photographer, not at her.

I make no comment on whether or not she is treated badly for her weight.
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.

#borecore

  • Member
  • Posts: 5173
  • Extreme normcore
Re: This book is full of "interesting assumptions".
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2016, 11:44:49 AM »
And honestly, she's out in NYC taking selfies, and I can only assume it's not with a cell phone. Of course people are going to look twice.

Especially since she obviously has the camera set up on a tripod in front of her and she's posing for it.

Also, what are the rules about publishing a person's photo without their permission?  Especially if it's for a book that she's profiting from? (Serious question, pretend that guy in Times Square realized he's in her book (and the reason she started it) and wasn't happy about it - would he have any legal recourse?)

I suggest you look up your local law or speak to a lawyer if you're actually concerned, but generally speaking you don't have an expectation of privacy in public.

That's how news stations and street style blogs and anyone taking a picture of anyone in public and paparazzi are permitted to operate.

It's kind of like 'it's not slander if it's true.' That person did make that face, like it or not (and I agree, I wouldn't like it -- but I've also been on the TV news or newspaper photos in less than flattering moments, and them's the breaks).

Harriet Jones

  • Member
  • Posts: 8650
  • Yes, we know who you are.
Re: This book is full of "interesting assumptions".
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2016, 11:45:12 AM »
I might have an upset look on my face because someone's taking a picture with me in it that's going to end up on social media somewhere.

Kiwipinball

  • Member
  • Posts: 1458
Re: This book is full of "interesting assumptions".
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2016, 11:49:45 AM »
I don't doubt for a second that she gets judgment and dirty looks from strangers in public. I believe that is her experience and if there are enough, it becomes clear it's not just a misinterpretation (one person appearing to give you a dirty look could be something else). I remember taking my cousins to the mall when I was a teen. The youngest was 13 years younger than me (and looked younger than that) and I got a lot of dirty looks. Some of them might have been a misperception, but I got a lot more than when I did not appear to be a young, single mother.

However, I don't like how she did this. Especially publishing pictures of strangers (presumably without permission) isn't okay to me. I especially don't like how easy it can be to misinterpret a picture which captures a split second in time. I remember a celebrity gossip magazine once trying to imply that a couple was in trouble (or the guy was abusive or something like that) because of a picture of a conversation where the woman was looking at her feet. Now if there was a video where the whole time she was staring at her feet, that would be more concerning (there could still be innocent explanations, but it would concern me to see a friend acting like that with a boyfriend) but a picture? Maybe she felt something on her feet and glanced down. So that's what I don't like about making conclusions on body language in a snapshot unless obviously deliberate (clearly the policeman was interacting with her regardless of his intention; if someone's arms are folded that's more deliberate than the angle of a head or something). Someone took a picture where it looked like I was making an extremely vulgar gesture because I was being silly and sticking out my tongue and a friend was making the peace sign. She was a different race than me (and I'm pale) but it still looked like my hand and 1st, 2nd and 3rd glance. So I don't like this project but do empathize with her and don't doubt her experience or think that she deserves it (as some commenters on the article did; which is why I prefer to not read comments on sites other than this!)

The guy in the last picture honestly looks like he's plotting to kill her. I'm sure he's not but that face doesn't read judgmental/mocking to me - it reads murderous. Would be interesting to know what he was actually doing.

lmyrs

  • Member
  • Posts: 1766
Re: This book is full of "interesting assumptions".
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2016, 12:17:37 PM »
I do not doubt that she has been judged and/or mocked for her size and it's possible that some of those photos are reflecting that. But I have an enormous problem with the fact that she is taking terrible behaviour that she gets from some people and transposing it onto others who may be innocent and then publishing it to the world for the purpose of shaming those innocent strangers. It's easy to say that those are her experiences sometimes but she's shaming the wrong people and for that she should be ashamed of herself.

mime

  • Member
  • Posts: 1824
Re: This book is full of "interesting assumptions".
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2016, 12:48:33 PM »
I do not doubt that she has been judged and/or mocked for her size and it's possible that some of those photos are reflecting that. But I have an enormous problem with the fact that she is taking terrible behaviour that she gets from some people and transposing it onto others who may be innocent and then publishing it to the world for the purpose of shaming those innocent strangers. It's easy to say that those are her experiences sometimes but she's shaming the wrong people and for that she should be ashamed of herself.

I had starting composing a very similar response to lmyrs

I am certain the truth is:
   She has been judged and mocked for her size
   Some of the photos honestly show that
   Some of the photos absolutely do not show that
   
So, yeah, she's taking the bad behavior of a group of people, and putting it on individuals who are not necessarily responsible for it. Not good.

I think her book ends up as an interesting commentary on how her perspective has been shaped so much by her experiences that she sees judgment and shaming in situations whether it really exists there or not.


Pooky582

  • Member
  • Posts: 192
Re: This book is full of "interesting assumptions".
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2016, 12:50:47 PM »
I do not doubt that she has been judged and/or mocked for her size and it's possible that some of those photos are reflecting that. But I have an enormous problem with the fact that she is taking terrible behaviour that she gets from some people and transposing it onto others who may be innocent and then publishing it to the world for the purpose of shaming those innocent strangers. It's easy to say that those are her experiences sometimes but she's shaming the wrong people and for that she should be ashamed of herself.

Exactly. This is not a fair way at all to show her life experiences. She is creating an odd situation, then picking and choosing the reactions that make her point, and profiting from shaming those people without knowing why they are making those faces.  There is zero way to know what any of the people were thinking. And just because she has experienced a lot of discrimination/bad looks in the past, does not mean every person she passes is the same way. She is assuming an awful lot.

I would be furious if I discovered myself in a photo like this that was purposefully taken to make me look bad, when the photographer had no idea why I looked the way I looked. Maybe I was staring, maybe I stubbed my toe, maybe I saw something in the distance that bothered me. The photographer does not get to decide how I feel or what I am doing for me.

I don't care if it is technically legal or not, taking photos of strangers, including in situations like this, is creepy and inappropriate.

Pooky582

  • Member
  • Posts: 192
Re: This book is full of "interesting assumptions".
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2016, 12:58:15 PM »
First of all, I disagree that this qualifies as art. Secondly, even if is actually considered art, she has put out there for people to see and - yes - judge. I have had my own weight issues over the years; this has nothing whatsoever to do with weight and judging people based on their appearance. It has everything to do with a person deliberately making a spectacle of herself and then deciding that people who are looking at her--because she's deliberately drawing attention to herself-are judging her weight and nothing else.

There is nothing artistic about this nonsense.

How exactly is she making a spectacle of herself? By daring to appear in a bathing suit in public?

Here's a question: if you were a larger person, an artist and someone who works through personal and social issues through your chosen medium, photography, how would you try to document the shaming and looks that you experience on a regular basis? It seems to me that she's tried to capture something very central to her daily experience in the most direct way possible.

Yes, everyone I think has had the experience at some point of making a face that doesn't align with their state of mind and being asked/called out about it, or accidentally staring and having it be misinterpreted. However, we as humans use facial expressions as a primary form of communication, and it isn't an "interesting assumption" to read those facial expressions and interpret them, it is simply an "assumption", one that we make everyday, hundreds of times a day.

I think these responses are yet another symptom of this board that I have noticed, which for some reason always approaches the OP with skepticism about their experience of their own life. For this artist (and she is an artist, whether you like her art or not. She holds an MFA, she teaches photography, and is the assistant dean at an art school.), this is her experience and perception of the world. I suppose that these skeptical responses to her work are part and parcel of the artistic experience she offers, and it is quite interesting that so many people want to respond to her by saying "I don't believe that these are your experiences, it must be something else. I once had someone misinterpret a funny look on my face once, so that must be it."  Well... maybe... or this is her actual experience that you could learn something about or have an empathetic response to, instead of such a negative and cold one.

I've noticed the same thing, where many responses seem to look at the OP with skepticism, while I try to give them the benefit of the doubt that they told us the pertinent information. However, no one is questioning whether or not she has had bad experiences. What is being questioned is whether or not she is assuming these are judgments when they had nothing to do with her.  I am overweight and have had comments. I've taken out my young cousins while I was a teenager and was treated like I was their mother. I am a nanny and people often assume I am their mother. People give looks and say things, I've been there.

But that does not give me the right to assume every single person is judging me or treating me badly. And it does not give me the right to sneak photos of them to shame them without knowing their intentions.

Kimberami

  • Member
  • Posts: 1116
Re: This book is full of "interesting assumptions".
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2016, 01:24:52 PM »
http://www.cbc.ca/radio/q/schedule-for-monday-march-14-2016-1.3490076/photographer-captures-the-dirty-looks-strangers-give-her-1.3490082

Long story short, this lady takes photos of herself in random public situations to capture people "giving her dirty looks" because she's bigger.

Really.

Really.

How does she know what those people are thinking?  How does she know that they're even looking at her?  I don't know about you guys, but sometimes when I'm in public and lost in thought my eyes might land on a person and stay there.  I'm not actually looking "at" them.  I would be horrified if I found myself in the background of her photos with that assumption. 

To me it looks like the people in the background are wondering why some lady is taking photos of herself for seemingly no reason.

The one of the policeman pretending to put his hat on her head - he's not making fun of her for being "fat", he's hamming it up because she's having her picture taken.  For heaven's sake some random cowboy did the same thing to me when I was posing for a pic in Tombstone, AZ.

This woman needs mental help if she thinks that every person who looks at her is judging her size.
I would love that so much!  :)
Goodbye Yellow Brick Road.

lakey

  • Member
  • Posts: 967
Re: This book is full of "interesting assumptions".
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2016, 01:30:26 PM »
Also, when I'm out and about trying to get a lot of things done, I tend to get stressed out. If she saw me on the street, she'd probably think I was frowning  because I didn't like the way she looks, when in reality, I would just be in a bad mood.

GreenEyedHawk

  • Member
  • Posts: 2486
  • Not hot but SPICY
    • My Facebook.  Feel free to add me!
Re: This book is full of "interesting assumptions".
« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2016, 01:35:58 PM »
Also, when I'm out and about trying to get a lot of things done, I tend to get stressed out. If she saw me on the street, she'd probably think I was frowning  because I didn't like the way she looks, when in reality, I would just be in a bad mood.

Same here.  I'm not a smiley person.  I'm terrible at faking a smile.  And I don't go around with a smile on my face all the time; that feels downright unnatural. My normal resting face seems to fluctuate between indifferent to annoyed to bored.  I would probably look like I was judging this lady for her size if she happened to be in my line of sight, but the odds would be that I am lost in thought and not even really seeing her. 

And even if I were judging her for her size, who cares?  We often say here that etiquette doesn't care what you think.  It only cares what you do or say.  If all I do is glance at someone in public with what may or may not be a judgemental face on, who cares?  Is that inherently rude or wrong?  I'm allowed to have thoughts, whether good or bad.  And if I am being a judgemental horse's backside, then that's a poor reflection on me, not on whoever I'm judging.

Personally this book looks to me to be almost a form of PA revenge.  "LOOK AT ALL THESE JUDGEMENTAL PEOPLE STARING AT ME!!"
"After all this time?"
"Always."

gellchom

  • Member
  • Posts: 3722
Re: This book is full of "interesting assumptions".
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2016, 02:36:02 PM »
I do not doubt that she has been judged and/or mocked for her size and it's possible that some of those photos are reflecting that. But I have an enormous problem with the fact that she is taking terrible behaviour that she gets from some people and transposing it onto others who may be innocent and then publishing it to the world for the purpose of shaming those innocent strangers. It's easy to say that those are her experiences sometimes but she's shaming the wrong people and for that she should be ashamed of herself.

I had starting composing a very similar response to lmyrs

I am certain the truth is:
   She has been judged and mocked for her size
   Some of the photos honestly show that
   Some of the photos absolutely do not show that
   
So, yeah, she's taking the bad behavior of a group of people, and putting it on individuals who are not necessarily responsible for it. Not good.

I think her book ends up as an interesting commentary on how her perspective has been shaped so much by her experiences that she sees judgment and shaming in situations whether it really exists there or not.

Well put, both of you.  This is what I think, too.

Psychopoesie

  • Member
  • Posts: 2038
Re: This book is full of "interesting assumptions".
« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2016, 05:52:50 PM »
Not seeing interesting assumptions on the artist's part. This is how she describes what she's doing:

When I get home, I look at each frame to see if anyone in the photograph had a critical or questioning look on their face or gesture in their body language. While I do not know what the passerby is thinking, my goal is to reverse the gaze back onto the stranger and start a conversation. I am very interested in how society uses their gaze to project emotions and then how we interpret the looks of others.

She seems well aware that she doesn't *know* what the people she photographs are thinking; this is her interpretation.  The conversation she's starting isn't with each individual, it's with everyone who sees her work. That's what artist's do, surely.


Onyx_TKD

  • Member
  • Posts: 1994
Re: This book is full of "interesting assumptions".
« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2016, 08:50:42 PM »
Not seeing interesting assumptions on the artist's part. This is how she describes what she's doing:

When I get home, I look at each frame to see if anyone in the photograph had a critical or questioning look on their face or gesture in their body language. While I do not know what the passerby is thinking, my goal is to reverse the gaze back onto the stranger and start a conversation. I am very interested in how society uses their gaze to project emotions and then how we interpret the looks of others.

She seems well aware that she doesn't *know* what the people she photographs are thinking; this is her interpretation.  The conversation she's starting isn't with each individual, it's with everyone who sees her work. That's what artist's do, surely.

The way I see it, she's either making interesting assumptions about whether strangers are judging her or displaying breathtaking hypocrisy. She objects to people supposedly staring at her, so goes out of her way to photograph strangers for the opportunity to "reverse the gaze back onto" them. IOW, she doesn't like being stared at and feeling judged for her weight, so she's photographing other people and holding them up to be stared at and judged for their (ambiguous) facial expressions and body language. IMO, making "interesting assumptions" is by far the more favorable interpretation of her actions.


Sorry, this topic is locked. Only admins and moderators can reply.