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Author Topic: Worst bouquet toss idea ever!!  (Read 11190 times)

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KenveeB

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Re: Worst bouquet toss idea ever!!
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2016, 01:08:42 PM »
I didn't interpret her prayer as hoping the single women will not be single much longer. Like many other posters here, I took it as her praying with each woman for God  to help her be patient and wait for the right man to enter her life instead of being in a hurry to marry.

But what if you have no desire to be married, after a long and patient wait or not? The prayer is still insisting that being married is the only right and proper way of life in the long run.


And even if the basis for the custom is the assumption that each young woman is hoping for a husband, although many of us find that not only inaccurate but insulting, perhaps in their community they do not.  Some forbid intermarriage, some have multiple marriage, some don't recognize divorce, some insist on male supremacy, and so on. If a culture or religion holds such a view, and you simply cannot stand to be around it, then politely decline invitations to their rituals and life cycle events (without saying that that is the reason).  But if you do choose to attend, be polite and keep your opinions to yourself; they aren't being rude to do it their way, nor are they required to justify it to our satisfaction or to be consistent in our eyes (by, e.g., also calling out those in bad marriages)

Is the rule really the same when you're forcing others into participating in your religious beliefs whether they want to or not? I wouldn't be personally offended by a general prayer about waiting for the man God has intended for your life, whatever my beliefs are about whether I need to be married or not. But when you single me out and pray with me about how I specifically need to find a man in my life, I think that's an entirely different situation. Also, this is the only time I've ever heard of this happening in the many, many weddings I've been to and heard about, even among religions that strongly encourage marriage for everyone. Am I supposed to quiz every bride in advance of if she's going to do this so I can politely decline? I would've been absolutely floored if this had happened to me at a wedding, no matter how religious the bride was. I think that's also a different situation than "either decline or go and shut up," when you have no idea it's going to be happening and thus can't decline based on it.

rose red

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Re: Worst bouquet toss idea ever!!
« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2016, 01:24:24 PM »
But we still don't know how she did it. Did she announce her plan so those who want to participate can gather around and those who don't can stay seated? There is no indication anyone is forced to stand up and prayed over.

KenveeB

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Re: Worst bouquet toss idea ever!!
« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2016, 01:30:28 PM »
But we still don't know how she did it. Did she announce her plan so those who want to participate can gather around and those who don't can stay seated? There is no indication anyone is forced to stand up and prayed over.

That's true. If it was just gathering the people who wanted to participate and not forcing or shaming anyone else into it, that's fine. I took the story at it's word as she was doing it for "all" the single girls.

Edit: I still think it's a terrible idea, because I think the bride comes across as condescending and self-righteous. It's etiquettely acceptable if it's not mandatory. But it would still affect my opinion of the bride, just like it could affect a divorced person's opinion if the HC decides to include a scathing lecture on divorce during the ceremony. Do it if you want, but it can still legitimately affect people's opinion of you.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 01:53:28 PM by KenveeB »

TeamBhakta

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Re: Worst bouquet toss idea ever!!
« Reply #33 on: June 07, 2016, 01:47:52 PM »
What I find most irksome about that (or any variants) is that the bride is basically telling everyone "I know I found the man Deity specifically had picked out for me. Nuh uh, I didn't guess wrong. I came up with the exactly correct prayers / magic dance / unicorn sacrifice to curry his favor. It's a shame your prayers / magic dances / unicorn sacrifices don't seem to work. But keeping trying! Bless your hearts, maybe one day you can be me *fans self Scarlett O'Hara style*" And I know we've all been to at least one wedding where you knew, despite smug proclamations, that "Bob has been stepping out on Sheila" or "Sheila is planning to bail on this marriage sooner than Bob expects."  ::)

gellchom

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Re: Worst bouquet toss idea ever!!
« Reply #34 on: June 07, 2016, 03:09:56 PM »
Is the rule really the same when you're forcing others into participating in your religious beliefs whether they want to or not? I wouldn't be personally offended by a general prayer about waiting for the man God has intended for your life, whatever my beliefs are about whether I need to be married or not. But when you single me out and pray with me about how I specifically need to find a man in my life, I think that's an entirely different situation. Also, this is the only time I've ever heard of this happening in the many, many weddings I've been to and heard about, even among religions that strongly encourage marriage for everyone. Am I supposed to quiz every bride in advance of if she's going to do this so I can politely decline? I would've been absolutely floored if this had happened to me at a wedding, no matter how religious the bride was. I think that's also a different situation than "either decline or go and shut up," when you have no idea it's going to be happening and thus can't decline based on it.

Re: the bolded -- I guess it was in an earlier post, but I specifically said
Quote
absolutely there should be no requirement or pressure to participate, even for members of that community.

EllenS

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Re: Worst bouquet toss idea ever!!
« Reply #35 on: June 07, 2016, 05:14:49 PM »
I would gently suggest that those who are personally outraged by other people's religions, are not very likely to have close friends of that religion, and therefore the risk of being put in this position is relatively low.

nuit93

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Re: Worst bouquet toss idea ever!!
« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2016, 08:12:38 PM »
I despise bouquet tosses and refused to do them when I was unmarried.  No one cared or said anything.

That said, it sounds like this bride was in a community where marriage (and subsequent motherhood) is considered the greatest thing a woman can accomplish.  I don't have friends like that.  I did attend one family wedding where there was a lot of talk about the wife being submissive to the husband and yadda yadda and I nearly walked out in protest.


JoieGirl7

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Re: Worst bouquet toss idea ever!!
« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2016, 10:27:40 PM »
Personally, I appreciate it when the "prayer" part of a wedding is kept to the ceremony and possibly saying grace before the meal is served.  Other than that...  well, as a guest who is not religious, it's just a bit much.

When my nephew got married, my sister and BIL (his parents) paid for most of the wedding but her parents exerted a lot of influence over it.  There was a whole lotta prayin'!

And my sister and BIL who, during the wedding were doing a lot of work, gathering up things they had had to rent etc, found a moment to be there when nephew and his new wife took off in the limo.

MOB and FOB decided that right as the young couple was getting in the car to leave was yet another time to join hands and pray together--without any kind of awareness that my sister and BIL were non-religious.

It was like a scene out of Bull Durham:
NUKE'S FATHER: Let's have a quick word of prayer, right here, to thank the Lord for all this --
ANNIE:  Oh let's not..

Definitely agree that its a know your audience thing.  And the thing is that a reception and the games or silly things like throwing/catching a bouquet are supposed to be fun.  Constantly introducing prayer makes these moments unnecessarily solemn.

Devils Advocate

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Re: Worst bouquet toss idea ever!!
« Reply #38 on: June 08, 2016, 07:03:25 AM »
I have a different perspective on this, because in the religious communities I've been involved with as an adult, the concept of "waiting on God's choice" translates to "don't be in such a hurry to seek marriage. There is a purpose for your life, and marriage may or may not be a part of it. So don't settle or compromise who you are."

That's actually quite a prevalent attitude in certain contemporary groups. So, since the traditional bouquet toss is all about who's next to marry, and participation implies that you are trying to grab that "lucky" talisman, this struck me as a reversal of the trope.

But without knowing what religious subculture the bride was in, it's impossible to tell which set of assumptions being projected here is correct.

If nobody was badgered to participate, I can't see how it was rude, regardless. If the bride was able to address each participant by name, that says to me that they had some context and prior knowledge of each other's lives.

These were her wedding guests, not strangers on the street.

POD.  This is exactly where I fall on this. 

Devils Advocate

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Re: Worst bouquet toss idea ever!!
« Reply #39 on: June 08, 2016, 07:35:39 AM »
I despise bouquet tosses and refused to do them when I was unmarried.  No one cared or said anything.

That said, it sounds like this bride was in a community where marriage (and subsequent motherhood) is considered the greatest thing a woman can accomplish.  I don't have friends like that.  I did attend one family wedding where there was a lot of talk about the wife being submissive to the husband and yadda yadda and I nearly walked out in protest.

Why does it sound like this?  I live in a community where "waiting" for the man that God has chosen for you to come along is valued.   I too value waiting to have sex and not rushing to get married.   Having that value doesn't mean that my community also doesn't value independent women, working women, SAH women, etc.  The wedding (especially the ceremony) is about the bride and groom...frankly it's not about you.  The fact that you don't agree with someone else's values (in this case the wife being submissive to the husband) doesn't give you a right to "walk out in protest".  If you feel that strongly--don't go to the wedding.

As far as this bride--it does go back to know your audience.  I don't see where anyone was "forced" to participate.  Many here have said they "despise" the bouquet toss.  But the girls at my wedding loved it, were not forced by any means, and it was a fun event.  To each their own. 

Devils Advocate

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Re: Worst bouquet toss idea ever!!
« Reply #40 on: June 08, 2016, 07:38:49 AM »
Personally, I appreciate it when the "prayer" part of a wedding is kept to the ceremony and possibly saying grace before the meal is served.  Other than that...  well, as a guest who is not religious, it's just a bit much.


Again, though the wedding isn't about the non-religious guest, it's about the bride and groom.  Typically, especially if a wedding is being held in a church, there is going to be a religious aspect to it.  As a guest either you know that going in (because you actually know the bride and groom) or you don't and you simply don't have to participate in the prayers. 

Goosey

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Re: Worst bouquet toss idea ever!!
« Reply #41 on: June 08, 2016, 07:58:59 AM »
I would gently suggest that those who are personally outraged by other people's religions, are not very likely to have close friends of that religion, and therefore the risk of being put in this position is relatively low.

I'm very atheist, but do have very religious friends. It's because they respect my beliefs and I respect theirs - I guess "respect" is the wrong word, but we don't spend time trying to convert each other or put each other in situations we know the other person will be uncomfortable with.

So, no, your statement is not accurate.

In this case, were I single, I would decline to participate. There are several issues between the morality and judgment implied in this action and my own strongly held non-religious beliefs. If I had a young single female child, I would not appreciate her being made a part of this gesture either.

If the bride were 100% sure that this would be welcomed by the single women among her guests, I have no problem with it. But, unless she is 100% sure and not making assumptions, I would say it's safer not to do it.

ETA: I would not want to be surprised by this either. So, if the bride had everyone gather for the bouquet toss and then instead had them called forward individually, that would be crossing a line IMO because I would feel like my choice was between making a scene and cooperating with something I felt was immoral. If it were announced ahead of time that this would be happening instead of a bouquet toss, that would give those who did not want to participate the chance to step out.

Then again, the last time I went to a wedding as a single person, I declined to participate in the bouquet toss and you would have thought that I had spit on the bride or something. Social pressure to participate in these traditions is amazing!
« Last Edit: June 08, 2016, 10:39:51 AM by Goosey »

Hmmmmm

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Re: Worst bouquet toss idea ever!!
« Reply #42 on: June 08, 2016, 08:01:45 AM »
Personally, I appreciate it when the "prayer" part of a wedding is kept to the ceremony and possibly saying grace before the meal is served.  Other than that...  well, as a guest who is not religious, it's just a bit much.


Again, though the wedding isn't about the non-religious guest, it's about the bride and groom.  Typically, especially if a wedding is being held in a church, there is going to be a religious aspect to it.  As a guest either you know that going in (because you actually know the bride and groom) or you don't and you simply don't have to participate in the prayers.

Agreeing with Advocate. Attending the marriage of a strongly religious couple and then being put out if the prayers aren't kept to a level you like is like attending an Indian Hindu wedding and wanting their customs kept to a minimum because you aren't Indian or Hindu.

iridaceae

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Re: Worst bouquet toss idea ever!!
« Reply #43 on: June 08, 2016, 08:11:08 AM »
I would gently suggest that those who are personally outraged by other people's religions, are not very likely to have close friends of that religion, and therefore the risk of being put in this position is relatively low.

It's not her religion that irritates me-it's her hubris. "You're going to come up here and we're going to pray for what I say we're going to pray about because I know what you want. Yes I do."

Nothing to see here.

rose red

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Re: Worst bouquet toss idea ever!!
« Reply #44 on: June 08, 2016, 08:14:01 AM »
I would gently suggest that those who are personally outraged by other people's religions, are not very likely to have close friends of that religion, and therefore the risk of being put in this position is relatively low.

It's not her religion that irritates me-it's her hubris. "You're going to come up here and we're going to pray for what I say we're going to pray about because I know what you want. Yes I do."

Again, who said the bride forced the unwilling?


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