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Author Topic: Worst bouquet toss idea ever!!  (Read 11202 times)

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Alicia

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Re: Worst bouquet toss idea ever!!
« Reply #45 on: June 08, 2016, 08:28:48 AM »
Not to mention the single woman could be say cousin of groom or childhood friends of groom. Or say lesbian
Also the sexist idea that woman need a man but not the reverse. 

iridaceae

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Re: Worst bouquet toss idea ever!!
« Reply #46 on: June 08, 2016, 09:00:18 AM »
I would gently suggest that those who are personally outraged by other people's religions, are not very likely to have close friends of that religion, and therefore the risk of being put in this position is relatively low.

It's not her religion that irritates me-it's her hubris. "You're going to come up here and we're going to pray for what I say we're going to pray about because I know what you want. Yes I do."

Again, who said the bride forced the unwilling?

Who s aid the very idea isn't hubris?
Nothing to see here.

rose red

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Re: Worst bouquet toss idea ever!!
« Reply #47 on: June 08, 2016, 09:10:37 AM »
I would gently suggest that those who are personally outraged by other people's religions, are not very likely to have close friends of that religion, and therefore the risk of being put in this position is relatively low.

It's not her religion that irritates me-it's her hubris. "You're going to come up here and we're going to pray for what I say we're going to pray about because I know what you want. Yes I do."

Again, who said the bride forced the unwilling?

Who s aid the very idea isn't hubris?

The OP's friend who witnessed it thought it was lovely. She was there. We weren't. So we don't know how the bride introduced the idea. We don't know anything about their customs or religion or if this is normal for them.

I find it quite interesting an etiquette board assumes the worst in people's motives when we have no idea what happened. Because we weren't there and the bride isn't here for us to ask.

eta: For what it's worth, I would not have participated. But who am I to say those who did join are wrong? I wouldn't participate in a dollar dance either, but it's expected and looked forward to in some cultures. It's just different beliefs.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2016, 09:32:58 AM by rose red »

Devils Advocate

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Re: Worst bouquet toss idea ever!!
« Reply #48 on: June 08, 2016, 09:47:34 AM »
I would gently suggest that those who are personally outraged by other people's religions, are not very likely to have close friends of that religion, and therefore the risk of being put in this position is relatively low.

It's not her religion that irritates me-it's her hubris. "You're going to come up here and we're going to pray for what I say we're going to pray about because I know what you want. Yes I do."

Again, who said the bride forced the unwilling?

Who s aid the very idea isn't hubris?

You keep using that word and I do not think it means what you think it means.  Hubris means excessive pride or self-confidence.  So the bride was praying what the bride wanted the ladies to have in their future life.  She wasn't speaking on behalf on the ladies.  But I very much doubt, given the circumstances, that the ladies disagreed with her because again there is no mention of being "forced" or the ladies being "uncomfortable". 

POD to rose red---don't participate if you don't want to do it.  You can always go to the bathroom at the key moment. 


Kiwipinball

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Re: Worst bouquet toss idea ever!!
« Reply #49 on: June 08, 2016, 12:07:02 PM »
I would gently suggest that those who are personally outraged by other people's religions, are not very likely to have close friends of that religion, and therefore the risk of being put in this position is relatively low.

I'm very atheist, but do have very religious friends. It's because they respect my beliefs and I respect theirs - I guess "respect" is the wrong word, but we don't spend time trying to convert each other or put each other in situations we know the other person will be uncomfortable with.

So, no, your statement is not accurate.


First of all I think it's awesome when people of different beliefs (religious, political, whatever) can be friends and not be bothered by the other people's beliefs. I would say that it very much does not sound like you're personally outraged by your friends' religious beliefs nor are they outraged by yours. I agree with EllenS that if someone is outraged by someone else's beliefs, it's going to be awfully difficult to be friends. I had a FB friend (we were never super close IRL but attended the same grad school). One day he posted some beliefs that I found extremely offensive (not religious or political - basically he made his low opinion of women quite clear). I unfriended him. Again, we were never close, but once I realized what his beliefs were, I didn't even want to have a low level of friendship with him.

So in your situation, you might expect to quietly not participate in a religious friend's religious aspects of a ceremony and that friend would not pressure you into doing anything you're uncomfortable with. That's when it works well. It'd be nice if it could always work that well. :)

Drunken Housewife

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Re: Worst bouquet toss idea ever!!
« Reply #50 on: June 08, 2016, 12:21:52 PM »
Quote
I would gently suggest that those who are personally outraged by other people's religions, are not very likely to have close friends of that religion, and therefore the risk of being put in this position is relatively low.

I've been in a similar position, being asked to pray for something I vehemently disagree with, and it's very awkward and uncomfortable and, well, just horrible. It does happen.I don't think the risk of it is relatively low.
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Goosey

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Re: Worst bouquet toss idea ever!!
« Reply #51 on: June 08, 2016, 12:23:29 PM »
Oh, I think their beliefs are immoral and I'm actively some of the core tenants of their beliefs. And it's the same the other way around. We just find other ways to connect and love each other.

I do think some of the implications of the actions in the OP are immoral and I would be outraged to be expected to take part in them.

I would gently suggest that those who are personally outraged by other people's religions, are not very likely to have close friends of that religion, and therefore the risk of being put in this position is relatively low.

I'm very atheist, but do have very religious friends. It's because they respect my beliefs and I respect theirs - I guess "respect" is the wrong word, but we don't spend time trying to convert each other or put each other in situations we know the other person will be uncomfortable with.

So, no, your statement is not accurate.


First of all I think it's awesome when people of different beliefs (religious, political, whatever) can be friends and not be bothered by the other people's beliefs. I would say that it very much does not sound like you're personally outraged by your friends' religious beliefs nor are they outraged by yours. I agree with EllenS that if someone is outraged by someone else's beliefs, it's going to be awfully difficult to be friends. I had a FB friend (we were never super close IRL but attended the same grad school). One day he posted some beliefs that I found extremely offensive (not religious or political - basically he made his low opinion of women quite clear). I unfriended him. Again, we were never close, but once I realized what his beliefs were, I didn't even want to have a low level of friendship with him.

So in your situation, you might expect to quietly not participate in a religious friend's religious aspects of a ceremony and that friend would not pressure you into doing anything you're uncomfortable with. That's when it works well. It'd be nice if it could always work that well. :)

mime

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Re: Worst bouquet toss idea ever!!
« Reply #52 on: June 08, 2016, 01:56:56 PM »
If the bride was calling out each single woman and making them be part of some showy prayer where she prays for something that they may not even want, or if she took on some attitude that she is now The Expert on good relationships and expresses pity for anyone who is not as blessed as she (for surely, they must want the life that she has), or that she is expressing some idea that women are destined to be nothing more than an accessory for men, then I'd agree that there is all kinds of wrong in that situation.

I just didn't get that from the OP. I assumed that the bride was not forcing anyone who didn't want to participate for whatever reason. From the one-sentence FB post, the OP doesn't have enough information to support or contradict our assumptions. So I reacted within my assumption and thought "well, it's not my cup of tea, but whatever." I'm just not inclined to say the bride did such a horrible, relationship-ending thing when we really don't know. All we know is that one guest thought it was lovely, which made me think she wasn't being totally obnoxious.



EllenS

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Re: Worst bouquet toss idea ever!!
« Reply #53 on: June 08, 2016, 02:20:41 PM »
Oh, I think their beliefs are immoral and I'm actively some of the core tenants of their beliefs. And it's the same the other way around. We just find other ways to connect and love each other.

I do think some of the implications of the actions in the OP are immoral and I would be outraged to be expected to take part in them.

I would gently suggest that those who are personally outraged by other people's religions, are not very likely to have close friends of that religion, and therefore the risk of being put in this position is relatively low.

I'm very atheist, but do have very religious friends. It's because they respect my beliefs and I respect theirs - I guess "respect" is the wrong word, but we don't spend time trying to convert each other or put each other in situations we know the other person will be uncomfortable with.

So, no, your statement is not accurate.


First of all I think it's awesome when people of different beliefs (religious, political, whatever) can be friends and not be bothered by the other people's beliefs. I would say that it very much does not sound like you're personally outraged by your friends' religious beliefs nor are they outraged by yours. I agree with EllenS that if someone is outraged by someone else's beliefs, it's going to be awfully difficult to be friends. I had a FB friend (we were never super close IRL but attended the same grad school). One day he posted some beliefs that I found extremely offensive (not religious or political - basically he made his low opinion of women quite clear). I unfriended him. Again, we were never close, but once I realized what his beliefs were, I didn't even want to have a low level of friendship with him.

So in your situation, you might expect to quietly not participate in a religious friend's religious aspects of a ceremony and that friend would not pressure you into doing anything you're uncomfortable with. That's when it works well. It'd be nice if it could always work that well. :)

And from the way you describe your friendships, it doesn't sound likely that they'd expect you to.

That's what I meant. Not that nobody in the history of ever has felt awkward. I mean, if people have radically opposing beliefs, then probably they are either going to find a way to be respectful and make it work, or else the friendship would have ended before it got to the "invite to our wedding" stage.

And if a bride is arrogant, condescending, and bulldozing other's feelings, then that is part of her character that's probably going to show up fairly early on. You don't spend your whole life being gracious and lovely, and then wake up on your wedding day a hubris-filled harpy.

Sure, sometimes people go along with things they don't really like and wind up in a hinky situation, especially when it's extended family or new in-laws that they don't really know.

But if a guest is walking in with a "how very, very dare you?" chip on their shoulder about religion, there are probably going to be quite a few signals that this is a religious couple, long before the end of the reception. I think it's a rare situation, that a guest is going to be blindsided and forced to participate in something that turns their stomach, with no way to see it coming or avoid it.

Goosey

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Re: Worst bouquet toss idea ever!!
« Reply #54 on: June 08, 2016, 02:24:14 PM »
I agree - if you see my original comment, I stated that as long as I wasn't surprised and tricked into participating, I wouldn't mind this occurring.

I was just objecting to the idea that you can't be outraged by religion and friends with religious people.

EllenS

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Re: Worst bouquet toss idea ever!!
« Reply #55 on: June 08, 2016, 02:34:06 PM »
I agree - if you see my original comment, I stated that as long as I wasn't surprised and tricked into participating, I wouldn't mind this occurring.

I was just objecting to the idea that you can't be outraged by religion and friends with religious people.

I think we are using the term outraged differently. I think It's the foundation of civilized society to be able to befriend people with whom you deeply - even vehemently disagree.

But if a person is angered to boiling by the very fact that such beliefs exist, and does not think others have the right to practice their own beliefs, even in their own weddings? That's going to be a hard road, to maintain such a friendship.

Goosey

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Re: Worst bouquet toss idea ever!!
« Reply #56 on: June 08, 2016, 02:35:39 PM »
Ah! Yes, I agree. That level of outrage is hard to contain!  ;D

I always felt I was only limiting myself by surrounding myself with only people who think and believe like I, though!

gellchom

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Re: Worst bouquet toss idea ever!!
« Reply #57 on: June 08, 2016, 02:46:31 PM »
I believe that in ultra-Orthodox Jewish communities, there is a custom that because brides and grooms are held to have heightened spiritual power on their wedding day, a blessing from them carries special weight, so that when the female guests greet the bride before the ceremony, she gives them a blessing -- and to the single ones, includes the wish that they will soon find their intended one.

I can certainly see how that could be uncomfortable and unwelcome for some guests, for all kinds of reasons.  But whether I like it or not, chastity before marriage, a heterosexual marriage, and having lots of children are core values of that community.  I don't see any reason for them not to do this even if there are some guests who don't agree with those values.  They can decline to participate in that part or just let it blow past them; it certainly isn't a personal commentary on them individually.

EllenS

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Re: Worst bouquet toss idea ever!!
« Reply #58 on: June 08, 2016, 02:46:56 PM »
Ah! Yes, I agree. That level of outrage is hard to contain!  ;D

I always felt I was only limiting myself by surrounding myself with only people who think and believe like I, though!

And that is why you are a "scholar and a gentleman," so to speak.

nuit93

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Re: Worst bouquet toss idea ever!!
« Reply #59 on: June 08, 2016, 03:54:42 PM »
I despise bouquet tosses and refused to do them when I was unmarried.  No one cared or said anything.

That said, it sounds like this bride was in a community where marriage (and subsequent motherhood) is considered the greatest thing a woman can accomplish.  I don't have friends like that.  I did attend one family wedding where there was a lot of talk about the wife being submissive to the husband and yadda yadda and I nearly walked out in protest.

Why does it sound like this?  I live in a community where "waiting" for the man that God has chosen for you to come along is valued.   I too value waiting to have sex and not rushing to get married.   Having that value doesn't mean that my community also doesn't value independent women, working women, SAH women, etc.  The wedding (especially the ceremony) is about the bride and groom...frankly it's not about you.  The fact that you don't agree with someone else's values (in this case the wife being submissive to the husband) doesn't give you a right to "walk out in protest".  If you feel that strongly--don't go to the wedding.

As far as this bride--it does go back to know your audience.  I don't see where anyone was "forced" to participate.  Many here have said they "despise" the bouquet toss.  But the girls at my wedding loved it, were not forced by any means, and it was a fun event.  To each their own.

My experience with those kinds of conservative communities has been limited, and my independence was not regarded as a valuable asset by those I knew it--it was instead treated as a character flaw. 

For myself, the expectation of pre-marital celibacy runs completely counter to my beliefs and values and I would not encourage or endorse it.  But I would not walk out of a wedding if the couple's values were counter to my own.


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