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Author Topic: Already Married  (Read 3541 times)

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Mayadoz

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Already Married
« on: November 29, 2016, 04:43:47 AM »
We have become friends with a couple who holiday in our part of Turkey regularly. They have been together for around 12 years and each has now-grown-up children from their previous marriages.

C proposed to L here in May, and the wedding is planned for September 2017.
C is English but L is Irish, and there are different regulations required by each government to make a marriage here valid in their own countries. L has discovered that the only way she can get the necessary paperwork etc done is to visit Ankara within a certain time period for appointments at various official buildings.... I'm not sure of the full details, but the upshot is they have decided it is too expensive and too much of an inconvenience.

So the legal ceremony will take place in England at some point before next September, and C & L will already be married when it comes to their 'wedding' here in Turkey....but nobody is to know. (The reason we are aware is because DH acts as celebrant at non-Turkish weddings for a couple of venues - the legal Turkish bit is very brief so most couples like additional vows etc. He needs to know as there will be a fake registrar at C & L's ceremony instead of the usual real one.)

Around 65+ guests are flying over from the UK and Ireland to see C & L get married (plus a group from Australia) but it will already have happened. I know of at least one couple who are making a real effort financially to attend because they are very close to L and want to see her marry the love of her life.

This just feels wrong to me. Why not be honest? I understand L wanting everyone to be at their wedding, but if I was one of the guests and later discovered the truth I'd be pretty cross I think.....or am I out of touch and this actually happens frequently?
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MariaE

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Re: Already Married
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2016, 05:00:25 AM »
Assuming that they view the legal ceremony as "just paperwork" and their "real wedding" (i.e. the day the use for anniversaries etc.) is the date of the celebration in Turkey, I wouldn't have a problem with it at all. I don't understand their need for secrecy, but it wouldn't bother me either.
 
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Mustard

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Re: Already Married
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2016, 06:53:08 AM »
It feels 'off' to me too.  It just seems odd to have a destination 'wedding' when at least 65 people could have witnessed and celebrated with them in the U.K.

MariaE

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Re: Already Married
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2016, 07:32:25 AM »
It feels 'off' to me too.  It just seems odd to have a destination 'wedding' when at least 65 people could have witnessed and celebrated with them in the U.K.

Oooh, I hadn't realized that part. I thought they were currently living in Turkey as expats.
If we're talking about a destination 'wedding' it feels really off to me too.
 
Dane by birth, Kiwi by choice

Alicia

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Re: Already Married
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2016, 07:43:17 AM »
It feels off and I would be hurt . However I don't think that you tell anyone. Your dh should decide how he feels about the theatrics of a fake wedding.  If he is good with the reenactment good if not he should speak up in advance.  No saying anything on the day.

maksi

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Re: Already Married
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2016, 09:10:11 AM »
I think the actively lying/faking part is the bad thing here for. If they just decided on just not advertising the legal aspect, it would be much better in my eyes. I'd feel very deceived if I watched a ceremony that I maybe later on heard was actually an act, no matter what the reasons behind it. I wouldn't mind at all knowing they had to go throug the legalities beforehand. The lying would hurt me, not the timing of the paperwork.

Also for me there'd a big difference between if it's a destination wedding or if they lived in Ankara themselves.

lmyrs

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Re: Already Married
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2016, 09:29:06 AM »
If you don't like it, I would decline to attend. If your DH doesn't like it, he should decline to participate. But it's not really any of your business about any of the rest.

I'm constantly bemused by the sheer number of people that are willing to ascribe the worst motives onto their friends. If you think that they're liars or cheaters or dishonest in general, then stop being friends with them. It's actually really easy. If you're looking for a way, you can start with, "I think you're a liar." That will usually take care of it.

If someone is comfortable spending a large amount of money on something, even if you think they can't afford it, that is also not your business.

I think that this type of thing is becoming more common. Couples have weddings that are "legal" and "ceremonial" for 10,000 different reasons now. Deployment, health insurance, paperwork, jurisdictional challenges, having the legal right to actually get married somewhere. There are places where same sex couples can't get married. There are places where divorced people cannot remarry. I think if we're going to sit and parse that one situation is OK while another isn't, it's a colossal waste of time and energy.

If we love someone and we want them to be happy, then why does it matter when a particular state recognized his union? Why can't we be happy for her and celebrate when she wants?

As for it all being secret, in a perfect world, it wouldn't be. I wish that some people didn't find it necessary. But, unfortunately, that goes back to people ascribing motives to those that they claim to love and it invites judgement and headache. There's a poster on this very site that proposed having a "paperwork" ceremony in the U.S. just to get it done before their actual wedding in Europe and now his parents are trying to turn it into a celebration. That's what happens.

ladyknight1

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Re: Already Married
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2016, 09:31:49 AM »
It feels 'off' to me too.  It just seems odd to have a destination 'wedding' when at least 65 people could have witnessed and celebrated with them in the U.K.

Oooh, I hadn't realized that part. I thought they were currently living in Turkey as expats.
If we're talking about a destination 'wedding' it feels really off to me too.

I have serious issues with having anyone travel for a false reason, much less 65 people!
“All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost."
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camlan

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Re: Already Married
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2016, 09:40:47 AM »
It feels 'off' to me too.  It just seems odd to have a destination 'wedding' when at least 65 people could have witnessed and celebrated with them in the U.K.

This is pretty much where I fall. If they were really getting married in Turkey, that's one thing. But to get married in the UK, where it seems many of their guests live, and then have a fake ceremony in Turkey--not fair to the guests.

The paperwork, I can understand. My brother's wife is Turkish and they married in Turkey. There was a lot of paperwork, and he had to be in the country at certain times to sign time-sensitive documents, which, since the military had moved him on to another country, was not easy. I think it took them two and a half years before they could actually get married. But they really had no other option at that time.

And, as you say, the Turkish civil ceremony is very short. From my point of view, it would make more sense for this couple to get married in the UK, and honeymoon in Turkey. I'm not sure what they are gaining by trying to hold a fake ceremony in Turkey.
Nothing is impossible, the word itself says, “I’m possible!” –Audrey Hepburn


nutraxfornerves

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Re: Already Married
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2016, 09:57:16 AM »
The "fake registrar" bothers me. That's a bit more than just concealing that a legal wedding has already taken place. It smacks of fraud--ethical if not legal fraud.

Edited because I'm not happy with how this sounds. I don't know if impersonating a registrar has legal implications in Turkey. Providing a fake registrar, even if not a legal issue, just seems to me like an additional step to pull the wool over people's eyes, as opposed to simply remaining silent on the actual marriage.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2016, 10:02:35 AM by nutraxfornerves »

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violinp

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Re: Already Married
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2016, 09:59:48 AM »
If you don't like it, I would decline to attend. If your DH doesn't like it, he should decline to participate. But it's not really any of your business about any of the rest.

I'm constantly bemused by the sheer number of people that are willing to ascribe the worst motives onto their friends. If you think that they're liars or cheaters or dishonest in general, then stop being friends with them. It's actually really easy. If you're looking for a way, you can start with, "I think you're a liar." That will usually take care of it.

If someone is comfortable spending a large amount of money on something, even if you think they can't afford it, that is also not your business.

I think that this type of thing is becoming more common. Couples have weddings that are "legal" and "ceremonial" for 10,000 different reasons now. Deployment, health insurance, paperwork, jurisdictional challenges, having the legal right to actually get married somewhere. There are places where same sex couples can't get married. There are places where divorced people cannot remarry. I think if we're going to sit and parse that one situation is OK while another isn't, it's a colossal waste of time and energy.

If we love someone and we want them to be happy, then why does it matter when a particular state recognized his union? Why can't we be happy for her and celebrate when she wants?

As for it all being secret, in a perfect world, it wouldn't be. I wish that some people didn't find it necessary. But, unfortunately, that goes back to people ascribing motives to those that they claim to love and it invites judgement and headache. There's a poster on this very site that proposed having a "paperwork" ceremony in the U.S. just to get it done before their actual wedding in Europe and now his parents are trying to turn it into a celebration. That's what happens.

These people are lying to the point of possibly having 65 people travel overseas for a sham ceremony. I would have no problem with a legal wedding at one time and a different ceremony later to satisfy religious requirements or Great - Aunt Muriel's need for whatever...as long as everyone is open and honest about things. This couple isn't even marrying legally at one point with a religious ceremony later for any real reason beyond "I don't want to deal with annoying paperwork." They don't even live in the country they want to marry in, so they themselves, never mind their guests, are spending thousands of dollars on a trip for essentially nothing - they're already legally married and can live as such. If I found out someone close enough that I would be invited to their wedding had just lied about when they legally got married to get me to spend thousands of dollars to travel overseas and see them marry...I wouldn't be pleased. Honor should mean something. A person's word should mean something.

The "fake registrar" bothers me. That's a bit more than just concealing that a legal wedding has already taken place. It smacks of fraud--ethical if not legal fraud.

This sums up what I just said far more succinctly. They're having someone play - act as a legal official of the government, and that's so not okay.
"It takes a great deal of courage to stand up to your enemies, but even more to stand up to your friends" - Harry Potter


Cali.in.UK

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Re: Already Married
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2016, 10:07:21 AM »
This type of question will garner a variety of answers. I started a thread about this same topic because my DH and I are from different countries as well and had to have our legal ceremony (a requirement for his visa) prior to the wedding ceremony. I think weddings are already pretty stressful on a couple and everyone attending has an opinion about everything so your friends might just not be announcing their legal ceremony because it clearly bothers people.

I agree with Imrys and I think you should assume positive intent on your friend's behalf. If you know them to be honest, good people in general, then they probably are in this situation too. I highly doubt they are intending to deceive people, they are probably just doing what they think is the best course of action. It IS hard when its a couple from two separate countries, if they had the wedding in England maybe the Irish family would feel slighted. If they have the wedding in a third country, then it seems more even. We never know the family politics that are going on behind the scenes.

But I would not go around telling people that the couple is already married, and if it does really bother you, then it would be better to not attend.

GreenBird

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Re: Already Married
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2016, 10:58:13 AM »
I would guess that the couple doesn't consider the Turkey ceremony to be "fake" or a "sham".  They consider it to be their real wedding, where they make a commitment to each other in front of their loved ones.  Just because the legal paperwork was done in the UK doesn't make the Turkey wedding a pointless sham.  Consider the Turkey wedding to be the wedding of their hearts, which should be the most important aspect of a wedding, the aspect that you want to share with people who love you.  The legal aspect is done only because some government needs to enact paperwork to legally recognize the wedding, but the genuine, important part of this wedding is going to be held in Turkey. 


mime

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Re: Already Married
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2016, 11:10:01 AM »
If you don't like it, I would decline to attend. If your DH doesn't like it, he should decline to participate. But it's not really any of your business about any of the rest.

I'm constantly bemused by the sheer number of people that are willing to ascribe the worst motives onto their friends. If you think that they're liars or cheaters or dishonest in general, then stop being friends with them. It's actually really easy. If you're looking for a way, you can start with, "I think you're a liar." That will usually take care of it.

If someone is comfortable spending a large amount of money on something, even if you think they can't afford it, that is also not your business.

I think that this type of thing is becoming more common. Couples have weddings that are "legal" and "ceremonial" for 10,000 different reasons now. Deployment, health insurance, paperwork, jurisdictional challenges, having the legal right to actually get married somewhere. There are places where same sex couples can't get married. There are places where divorced people cannot remarry. I think if we're going to sit and parse that one situation is OK while another isn't, it's a colossal waste of time and energy.

If we love someone and we want them to be happy, then why does it matter when a particular state recognized his union? Why can't we be happy for her and celebrate when she wants?

As for it all being secret, in a perfect world, it wouldn't be. I wish that some people didn't find it necessary. But, unfortunately, that goes back to people ascribing motives to those that they claim to love and it invites judgement and headache. There's a poster on this very site that proposed having a "paperwork" ceremony in the U.S. just to get it done before their actual wedding in Europe and now his parents are trying to turn it into a celebration. That's what happens.

All of this. Well said, lmyrs.

lmyrs

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Re: Already Married
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2016, 11:46:33 AM »
If you don't like it, I would decline to attend. If your DH doesn't like it, he should decline to participate. But it's not really any of your business about any of the rest.

I'm constantly bemused by the sheer number of people that are willing to ascribe the worst motives onto their friends. If you think that they're liars or cheaters or dishonest in general, then stop being friends with them. It's actually really easy. If you're looking for a way, you can start with, "I think you're a liar." That will usually take care of it.

If someone is comfortable spending a large amount of money on something, even if you think they can't afford it, that is also not your business.

I think that this type of thing is becoming more common. Couples have weddings that are "legal" and "ceremonial" for 10,000 different reasons now. Deployment, health insurance, paperwork, jurisdictional challenges, having the legal right to actually get married somewhere. There are places where same sex couples can't get married. There are places where divorced people cannot remarry. I think if we're going to sit and parse that one situation is OK while another isn't, it's a colossal waste of time and energy.

If we love someone and we want them to be happy, then why does it matter when a particular state recognized his union? Why can't we be happy for her and celebrate when she wants?

As for it all being secret, in a perfect world, it wouldn't be. I wish that some people didn't find it necessary. But, unfortunately, that goes back to people ascribing motives to those that they claim to love and it invites judgement and headache. There's a poster on this very site that proposed having a "paperwork" ceremony in the U.S. just to get it done before their actual wedding in Europe and now his parents are trying to turn it into a celebration. That's what happens.

These people are lying to the point of possibly having 65 people travel overseas for a sham ceremony. I would have no problem with a legal wedding at one time and a different ceremony later to satisfy religious requirements or Great - Aunt Muriel's need for whatever...as long as everyone is open and honest about things. This couple isn't even marrying legally at one point with a religious ceremony later for any real reason beyond "I don't want to deal with annoying paperwork." They don't even live in the country they want to marry in, so they themselves, never mind their guests, are spending thousands of dollars on a trip for essentially nothing - they're already legally married and can live as such. If I found out someone close enough that I would be invited to their wedding had just lied about when they legally got married to get me to spend thousands of dollars to travel overseas and see them marry...I wouldn't be pleased. Honor should mean something. A person's word should mean something.

The "fake registrar" bothers me. That's a bit more than just concealing that a legal wedding has already taken place. It smacks of fraud--ethical if not legal fraud.

This sums up what I just said far more succinctly. They're having someone play - act as a legal official of the government, and that's so not okay.

This is exactly what I was talking about. Judgmental attitudes. I'm sure the couple doesn't consider this a sham wedding and that once the legal paperwork was done then nothing else matters. I'm sure that the couple would be happy to leave people who are calling their marriage a sham off of their guest list.


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