I'd like your opinions on the following situation please

[sammycat]

Fay and Sue are friends who each have a son aged 4. (Fay = Fabio and Sue = Sam )  All 4 people are at Sue's house, along with a mutual 3rd friend, and her 4 year old son.  All 3 boys are playing happily outside, or so we think.  Fabio and Sam have a bit of a love/hate relationship; most days they get on but some days they just don't.  Today they were getting on.  Then Sue's DH comes in to say that Fay's son Fabio is bleeding.  All the mums go outside and sure enough Fabio's lip is bleeding. He's not crying and doesn't seem particularly worried about the blood, but does seem a little shocked.  It turns out that Sam threw a toy at Fabio and that it was unprovoked.  If it had been any child other than Sam there's a 99.9% chance that it was accidental, but based on past behaviour it can only be assumed with Sam that it's 50/50 as to whether it's accidental or deliberate.

Under normal circumstances this is what I see happening:  Sue takes her son over to Fabio to apologise (either he says it or his mother says it on his behalf).  Fay's son accepts the apology and everyone moves on. End of story.  These things happen all the time with kids and there's no point dragging it out.

What if the story ends differently.  Sue makes no attempt to have her son apologise other than saying quietly to him that you don't throw toys. No other acknowldgement that what Sam did was wrong, nor does she seem concerned about Fabio's condition.  Sue then goes back inside.  Fay then tells Sam that he has to apologise to Fabio but Sam refuses and actually sticks his fingers in his ears and alternates between poking out his tongue and saying that he wasn't listening.  Upon going inside to tell Sue of this she flat out refuses to make her son apologise for any of his behavior at all and tries to actually blame Fabio in some twisted way.  

The way she sees it unless her child actually means the apology there is no point in making him say it.  Firstly, she didn't even try and make him say it, and secondly, at that age most children don't really mean or understand an apology but they still say it anyway (or the parent at least apologises to the child or other parent).

Sue and Sam are not particularly liked at the educational centre they all attend, partly because of this sort of attitude (ie. Sam can do no wrong).  Mutual friend stays out of it completely.  What are your thoughts on this?

[Gileswench]

I think Sue is doing her son no favors by refusing to teach him even the most basic manners. If I was Fay, I wouldn't let my kid play unsupervised with Sam.

[JoyinVirginia]

My opinion: Sam is 4, if he is not firmly corrected and forcefully told to not throw toys and make other kids bleed, he will not take it seriously. Telling him quietly that "we dont throw toys" is meaningless unless backed up with some action on mom's part, like making hiim have a time out, not allowing him to play until he can play nicely, etc  My prediction is that one day one of Sam's playmates will get mad at being hit, and wallop Sam upside the head. I doubt if Sam's mom will like that very much.
Joy in Virginia

[Gigi]

What Joy said!!!

[sammycat]

That incident happened a couple of years ago now and all the boys have since started school.  Lets just say that Sam is not the most popular boy in the school and his mother is probably the most loathed parent, by both parents and staff.  Actually Sam and Sue have swapped schools this past year so that's 2 schools they're not popular at.  But of course it's always everyone else's fault, as they don't see things the way Sue does, as her way is the only way.    Oh, and neither Fay nor mutual friend speak to Sue now.

[FoxPaws]

That poor kid. 

I am talking about Sam, of course. Sooner or later, he's going to wonder why nobody likes him and it's a lot harder to teach yourself proper manners than it is to be brought up with them in the first place. Mommy is not doing him any favors.

We are born selfish creatures. It doesn't come naturally to anyone to think about others - it has to be taught, and the earlier that education begins, the easier the lessons are to swallow.

[sammycat]

the earlier that education begins, the easier the lessons are to swallow.

Definitely.

[MrsP81]

I would stop spending time with them. Maybe Sue will get it when nobody wants to play with her son.

[dawbs]

I"m not a huge fan of the "forced apology" from children.  (of course, that doesn't mean that mom can't apologize even if Sam doesnt...Sue should have apologized to both mother and child)

That being said, the toy throwing still has to be dealt with assertively.  I think the failure to do that is probably a bigger issue than the apology.

[Nuala]

The way she sees it unless her child actually means the apology there is no point in making him say it.

I think that may be true when one has a teenager whose sarcastic apology would be more insulting that assuaging, but for a four-year-old, even just "going through the motions" is a means of modeling correct behavior.  When one hurts someone, one apologizes.

[Clara Bow]

There's a little boy at my son's sitter's house with a similar problem. He was a notorious biter, now he just has tantrums and hits my son, or grabs him by the shoulders and puts his hands on his neck in a choking fashion. The sitter immediately makes him stop, apologize and puts him in time out. His mother's solution? When she's told of the incident she yells at the kid, hits him and ridicules him for being mean. Gee, I wonder why your 4 year old has anger issues?? She's not an affectionate mother at all, she's outright mean to the poor little guy (spanks him with a belt for God's sakes) and as a result, he's a little nightmare. He and my son normally get along fine but there are days...especially when "Ty" has not had enough sleep because his parents were dragging him to parties so they could drink and hang out until all hours.....

[Evil Duckie]

Sam is in for a rough life if he doen't learn limits and soon. He will get worse. You have to feel sorry for him because he hasn't been taught better.

Sue is doing Sam no favors by not teaching him limits and how to behave. Sue is one of those moms who child was born perfect and there is no reason for her to do anything because he still is perfect.

[Chartreuse]

Sue's not doing too well with the parenting thing, is she?  Sam's learning that there really are no consequences to his behavior, his mother's a pushover.  Sam's also learning that he doesn't have to respect other adults or other children because his mother will back up anything he does or says.  You know how we have plenty of posts around here about entitlement brats?  Congratulations, you've now witnessed how they start out.  Of course, in about a decade when Sue can't figure out why Sam's a terror, everyone else who knows them will understand.

[ZipTheWonder]

The way she sees it unless her child actually means the apology there is no point in making him say it.    <----  I completely disagree with this.  I think there is precious little about apologizing and forgiveness that the four year-old mind really groks, anyway, so there are no genuine apologies from four year-olds.  Its' not developmental for four year-olds to take the perspective otf others (ie: "Wow, that must have hurt!  It would really hurt if he did it to me!"  <--That comes a little later.) 

My own take on this is to insist on the apology, not as a recognition of a wrong done for which he is necessarily fully responsible, but as an acknowledgement of the hurt that exists.  I think there is a time when this is appropriate as adults as well -- to apologize even when we do not feel we are fully responsible but when we have either caused collaterol damage or want to acknowledge someone else's pain in our presence.
Even if he hadn't been involved at all, I would insist my child acknowledge the other child's injury in some way because that's how we develop compassion.

[Tabris]

You're exactly right, Zip. The idea is to teach children that they're not the only ones with feelings.

My TWO YEAR OLD will go up to someone he's hurt and say, "Ah sorry. Won't do it again." He doesn't know what he means, but he knows that's what you say when you've made someone cry. Over time he will connect his saying it to others to their saying it to him.

But you know, even at age one, when I was holding him to comfort him if he cried, he would pat my back. Because he'd learned by that age that when someone is sad, you pat the person's back (since that's what we'd do while cuddling him) and therefore he'd pat my back when he was sad.

This mother is doing more than failing to teach her son manners. She's actually stifling his natural empathy.