They are my clothes!

[freakyfemme]

KoKo, do you ever swim when grandma is around? If so, maybe you might keep the one-piece suit for those rare times, just to forestall more fights.

It's not as if she's asking you to wear a full diving outfit that covers you from wrists to ankles, after all.

What I'm hearing from you in these stories about your grandmother is that she thinks you can do nothing right, and YOU think SHE can do nothing right. You've got to back off.

Why do you have to back off? Because SHE isn't going to back down, and someone has to. Is that unfair? Yes, but you know what? It will be a lot easier in the long run if you let these stupid little control issues go, let her win a few fights, and allow her to relax a bit and feel she has some influence in your life. In order to change the way you two relate, you're first going to have to change the way you relate to her. Right now, your entire relationship is one circle of nonproductive anger patterns. Do you REALLY want that stress every time you interact?

Part of growing up is knowing when to walk away from a dogfight. Three years from now, what do you stand to lose if you give in now? Three years from now, what do you stand to have gained? It's negligible. Let this go. Write her a nice note. Wear the stupid swimsuit when she may see you. Quit taking every criticism of your life as a knife to the heart. Find some common ground with her. Once you stop being eternally defensive, you may find she stops being continuously offensive.

I respectfully disagree.  Some people who do the "controlling" thing are just insatiable, and once they see that they can get someone to do something they want, they keep trying to manipulate that same person, over and over again.  For example.......well, I hate to use my mother as an example, because we've been getting along so much better lately, but I guess since this isn't a recent series of events, it's okay to describe it:

End of grade eight: The "course selection" sheets for grade nine were sent home (if you can even call them that, because at the time, students going into grade nine were only allowed to chose which arts course they wanted to take--visual arts, music, or drama.....they've since added dance as an option, and I think there's a choice among gym classes too, but we only got to pick arts courses).  Anyway.......my mom announced that I would *have* to take music, because she'd heard wonderful things about the Blahblah Whatsit Collegiate Band from friends with older kids.  I didn't want to at the time, but I did, reluctantly.

Later in grade nine through grade eleven:  I discovered that I liked music, and was good at it, but I was horrible at math.  My mother then proceeded to make all kinds of scary-but-empty threats to take away my music if I didn't improve in math.....she never followed through, but I ended up passing by the skin of my teeth with the help of my tutor.

Grade 12-summer before first year of university: My mother started to worry about my weight...more so.....so, she'd intermittently threaten to take away my music if I didn't lose weight.  Things calmed down, then in OAC, she promised me she'd buy me my own clarinet (a nice wooden model) if I got into university for music.  I did, she was happy, but THEN she decided to make the clarinet contingent on......guess what?  Making a commitment to lose weight.  I played along for a bit, she let up and bought me the clarinet, but continued to act whiny and PA about my weight all summer, until I finally left for school.

Summer before second year of university-now:  My mother decided that she'd had enough, she said I couldn't go back to school unless I lost weight, I started losing weight, I went back to school, I continued to lose weight, she was happy, so she bought me cute clothes to replace the ones that I'd "outshrunk."  Fine, right?  Well, after a while, whenever I'd wear my new clothes, she'd say they were indecent for one reason or another--pants too low, shirts too short or too tight (I don't dress provocatively by any stretch, so any bare midriff or back she might have seen was purely incidental).  After that, my clothing became a source of never-ending lectures and tantrums from her, about how I embarrassed her, she couldn't be seen in public with me, etc.  At this point, I simply started tuning her out.

So, you see, a lot of truly controlling people don't even really want whatever it is they appear to be campaigning for at the time, they just have a crazy need to always have something to control or fix.  So, in Koko's case, she might start out by wearing the one-piece bathing suit to please her grandmother, but then after swimming, Grandma might take offense to a slogan on Koko's T-shirt, or think her jeans are too tight or whatever, and then take it upon herself to buy Koko a whole new wardrobe of clothes that she doesn't have room to store, and then pitch a fit on the inevitable day she either a) comes over unannounced, or b) Koko forgets which clothes are "Grandma-approved" and which aren't, and wears the wrong thing.  Or, even if Grandma *is* satisified with Koko's choice of outfits, she might find something else to pick on.....I know boys have been a recurring theme, as well as Koko's movie and T.V. preferences.  So, I guess what I'm saying is, Tabris, much as I normally agree with you, and I think you're a really wonderful, nice person, and a great addition to E-hell, this time, I have to say, I don't agree that "give the control freak whatever he or she wants" is necessarily the best advice, because chances are, the control freak in question will *never* be satisfied.

[BabyJane]

I would thank Grandma for the bathing suit and make sure that you NEVER show her any swimsuit photos again.
You could also tell her, nicely, that she is making it very difficult for you to spend time with her because she is always criticizing you.  If she doesn't stop, then limit your time with her.

[Lisbeth]

KoKo, do you ever swim when grandma is around? If so, maybe you might keep the one-piece suit for those rare times, just to forestall more fights.

It's not as if she's asking you to wear a full diving outfit that covers you from wrists to ankles, after all.

What I'm hearing from you in these stories about your grandmother is that she thinks you can do nothing right, and YOU think SHE can do nothing right. You've got to back off.

Why do you have to back off? Because SHE isn't going to back down, and someone has to. Is that unfair? Yes, but you know what? It will be a lot easier in the long run if you let these stupid little control issues go, let her win a few fights, and allow her to relax a bit and feel she has some influence in your life. In order to change the way you two relate, you're first going to have to change the way you relate to her. Right now, your entire relationship is one circle of nonproductive anger patterns. Do you REALLY want that stress every time you interact?

Part of growing up is knowing when to walk away from a dogfight. Three years from now, what do you stand to lose if you give in now? Three years from now, what do you stand to have gained? It's negligible. Let this go. Write her a nice note. Wear the stupid swimsuit when she may see you. Quit taking every criticism of your life as a knife to the heart. Find some common ground with her. Once you stop being eternally defensive, you may find she stops being continuously offensive.

I have to agree with freakyfemme on this one.  When someone keeps criticizing you and you keep giving in because of "picking your battles" and you decide never to pick one with this person, you are giving them the rights to control your life.  As a matter of fact, historically this is how World War II started in Europe and parts of Asia.

Even when someone is old, they do not have the right to be passive-aggressive to the point that they take away all rights of someone else to decide how they are going to live their lives.  That's called bullying.

The way I would deal with this would be for Ko-Ko to thank her grandmother for the bathing suit but then to do whatever she wants with it, including not wearing it, giving it away, or running her car over it if she feels like it (as long as it's outside her grandmother's presence and not interfering with traffic laws  )  If she decides to wear a two-piece bathing suit in her grandmother's presence in the future and her grandmother erupts, she can tell her, "Grandmother, I considered the bathing suit you gave me, but it didn't work for me.  Thank you for thinking of me, but this suit is the one that works for me.  My parents agree with me and approved this suit.  It's not breaking any indecent exposure laws.  Let's agree that we disagree about this."

[Tabris]

Based on this thread and the other one, I've seen no evidence that KoKo ever tried meeting her grandmother halfway. You've got two strong-willed women at one another's throats and a pair of head-in-the-sand parents who aren't going to do anything to stop this clash of wills from happening.

If KoKo gives in a bit and meets her grandmother halfway and the grandmother STILL doesn't back down, then she needs to go to war. But why make going to war your first and only response? Up until now, KoKo is *reacting* to her grandmother rather than *responding,* and she's made no pre-emptive moves to either defuse her grandmother's tension or address problems before they happen.

As long as her grandmother thinks she's getting at KoKo with these moves, she's going to keep trying to do it. If KoKo can disarm her in advance, what's the harm? I'm not saying she should walk on eggshells, but in order to change the overall pattern of the relationship, she may have to give in on some negotiables right now. So far, KoKo and her grandmother have both made EVERYTHING non-negotiable. What's the use in that? It just gives everyone heartburn.

She can always go back on the defensive if being flexible doesn't help.

[freakyfemme]

Based on this thread and the other one, I've seen no evidence that KoKo ever tried meeting her grandmother halfway. You've got two strong-willed women at one another's throats and a pair of head-in-the-sand parents who aren't going to do anything to stop this clash of wills from happening.

If KoKo gives in a bit and meets her grandmother halfway and the grandmother STILL doesn't back down, then she needs to go to war. But why make going to war your first and only response? Up until now, KoKo is *reacting* to her grandmother rather than *responding,* and she's made no pre-emptive moves to either defuse her grandmother's tension or address problems before they happen.

As long as her grandmother thinks she's getting at KoKo with these moves, she's going to keep trying to do it. If KoKo can disarm her in advance, what's the harm? I'm not saying she should walk on eggshells, but in order to change the overall pattern of the relationship, she may have to give in on some negotiables right now. So far, KoKo and her grandmother have both made EVERYTHING non-negotiable. What's the use in that? It just gives everyone heartburn.

She can always go back on the defensive if being flexible doesn't help.

Well, see, maybe Koko refuses to back down because, in her eyes, the things her grandmother gets so persnickety about don't affect her the tiniest bit.  If Grandma doesn't like the show Koko is watching, well, fine, she doesn't have to watch it, and if there's more than one television in the house, she's free to watch what she likes in another room.....or else, Koko will leave the family room, go upstairs, and watch what she wants away from Grandma.  Likewise, I'm assuming that Grandma chooses her own wardrobe, because she's an adult, so why shouldn't she be allowed to?  From what I can see, Koko is a responsible young woman who ought to be treated like an adult as well......after all, she *is* seventeen.  The problem here isn't individual battles, it's the fact that Koko wants to be herself, and Grandma wants Koko to be some idealized, demure, Victorian-era version of herself, and this unrealistic expectation is putting a strain on their relationship.  Remember how enraged everyone got at Dear Abby, who suggested to a fourteen-year-old girl that she should get a makeover to please others?  Why should Koko have to effectively do the same thing, when her clothes and behaviours aren't even that outlandish to begin with?

[Tabris]

The problem here isn't individual battles, it's the fact that Koko wants to be herself, and Grandma wants Koko to be some idealized, demure, Victorian-era version of herself, and this unrealistic expectation is putting a strain on their relationship.

Is it really? We don't know that. We do know that KoKo gets very wound up over what seem to ME to be normal expectations on the part of her grandmother or normal miscommunications (ie, be home for dinner), which then escalate because neither one of them has any sense of perspective any longer when it comes to the fight.

My stepfather's parents used to have a SCREAMING argument every holiday meal over....spoons. Which serving spoon to use to serve which dish. They'd be flaring up with rage at one another, but it was never "really" about the spoons. They were arguing over fifty years of strain in their marriage and issues they never actually voiced and never fully realized to themselves.

We're only getting KoKo's side of things. Don't read your own grandmother into her situation, Freaky--it may not necessarily be toxic.

You said:

he things her grandmother gets so persnickety about don't affect her the tiniest bit.

And honestly? They don't really affect KoKo in the tiniest bit either. That's what sends my sensor readings off the scale here. We're not talking about whether KoKo is allowed to go to college or whether she's allowed to own a computer. We're talking about a one piece bathing suit and flip-flop sandals and the movie Footloose. Let's be serious here--none of those things would even be remembered a month from now if both these women weren't getting stubborn about it and making a war where there didn't need to be one.

[guihong]

I have to agree with Tabris.  As you get older, and hopefully wiser, you learn that some things (or even most things) aren't worth a battle.  And getting a makeover a'la the Dear Abby letter is totally different from doing things grandma's way for a few hours of life.  So, I say, wear the suit for Grandma's sake, and follow her rules.  Neither will matter ten years from now.

gui

[freakyfemme]

The problem here isn't individual battles, it's the fact that Koko wants to be herself, and Grandma wants Koko to be some idealized, demure, Victorian-era version of herself, and this unrealistic expectation is putting a strain on their relationship.

Is it really? We don't know that. We do know that KoKo gets very wound up over what seem to ME to be normal expectations on the part of her grandmother or normal miscommunications (ie, be home for dinner), which then escalate because neither one of them has any sense of perspective any longer when it comes to the fight.

My stepfather's parents used to have a SCREAMING argument every holiday meal over....spoons. Which serving spoon to use to serve which dish. They'd be flaring up with rage at one another, but it was never "really" about the spoons. They were arguing over fifty years of strain in their marriage and issues they never actually voiced and never fully realized to themselves.

We're only getting KoKo's side of things. Don't read your own grandmother into her situation, Freaky--it may not necessarily be toxic.

You said:

he things her grandmother gets so persnickety about don't affect her the tiniest bit.

And honestly? They don't really affect KoKo in the tiniest bit either. That's what sends my sensor readings off the scale here. We're not talking about whether KoKo is allowed to go to college or whether she's allowed to own a computer. We're talking about a one piece bathing suit and flip-flop sandals and the movie Footloose. Let's be serious here--none of those things would even be remembered a month from now if both these women weren't getting stubborn about it and making a war where there didn't need to be one.

All I was trying to say was, I don't think it's appropriate for one adult to presume to make decisions for another.  Let's take the "grandmother/granddaughter" relationship out of the equation for a moment.  If I posted on here saying that one of my friends (guy or girl, it doesn't matter), or one of my roommates (all girls right now, but who knows what next year will bring?) repeatedly tried to dictate my wardrobe and T.V. and movie choices.  I really doubt people here would be telling me to "choose my battles" by acquiesing to that person, so Koko shouldn't have to either.  She's an adult, her grandmother is an adult, and they should both be allowed to make decisions that work for them.  I never said Koko shouldn't come home for dinner if she was expected to, I just said she should be allowed to wear what she wants, and watch what she wants, if it's not hurting anyone else.  A lot of young people are self-conscious (hell, I'm still a bit self-conscious about some things, and I'm 22), and maybe it would embarrass her if she had to go swimming at a public pool or beach in a bathing suit that she thought was ugly.

[Lisbeth]

The problem here isn't individual battles, it's the fact that Koko wants to be herself, and Grandma wants Koko to be some idealized, demure, Victorian-era version of herself, and this unrealistic expectation is putting a strain on their relationship.

Is it really? We don't know that. We do know that KoKo gets very wound up over what seem to ME to be normal expectations on the part of her grandmother or normal miscommunications (ie, be home for dinner), which then escalate because neither one of them has any sense of perspective any longer when it comes to the fight.

My stepfather's parents used to have a SCREAMING argument every holiday meal over....spoons. Which serving spoon to use to serve which dish. They'd be flaring up with rage at one another, but it was never "really" about the spoons. They were arguing over fifty years of strain in their marriage and issues they never actually voiced and never fully realized to themselves.

We're only getting KoKo's side of things. Don't read your own grandmother into her situation, Freaky--it may not necessarily be toxic.

You said:

he things her grandmother gets so persnickety about don't affect her the tiniest bit.

And honestly? They don't really affect KoKo in the tiniest bit either. That's what sends my sensor readings off the scale here. We're not talking about whether KoKo is allowed to go to college or whether she's allowed to own a computer. We're talking about a one piece bathing suit and flip-flop sandals and the movie Footloose. Let's be serious here--none of those things would even be remembered a month from now if both these women weren't getting stubborn about it and making a war where there didn't need to be one.

Whether or not each individual incident is affecting Ko-Ko isn't the point, but the fact that this is a pattern instigated by her grandmother.  Ko-Ko doesn't know what's going to set her off, just that something will each time they get together.  Giving in each time no matter what the issue is means that Ko-Ko's grandmother isn't trying to compromise either but insists on getting her own way no matter what.  

relationships only work when both parties are willing to make room for the other person's feelings and needs, and her grandmother isn't doing that.  The fact that she's old doesn't excuse her from responsibility for doing her part in the relationship as she doesn't seem to have any mental disabilities that we've heard about.

[Tabris]

I never said KoKo should give in *each time* or that she should do it because her grandmother is old. I said that KoKo should try non-escalating the fight and finding common ground with her grandmother because it *is* her grandmother, and because unless one of them backs down, they will be locked in a battle of wills over garbage forever.

[BatCity]

She is a very scary woman.   I'll do the best I can standing up to her. And the thing is, if that doesn't work, she uses guilt. It's a Jewish thing.   Unfortunately, I didn't inherit this ability.

Heh...I was thinking the same thing.  My grandmother used to do this sort of thing, and I assure you it only gets worse.  I just kept reminding myself that it's just her way of showing she loves and cares about her family.  Politely and respectfully defending yourself is exactly the way to handle it.

Lara

[Lisbeth]

I never said KoKo should give in *each time* or that she should do it because her grandmother is old. I said that KoKo should try non-escalating the fight and finding common ground with her grandmother because it *is* her grandmother, and because unless one of them backs down, they will be locked in a battle of wills over garbage forever.

It looks like no matter what Ko-Ko does, she is going to be locked in a battle of wills with her grandmother, because based on what she's posted about her grandmother, her grandmother is going to pick a battle with her every time-if not on clothes, on something else.

I think Ko-Ko is asking in this thread how to make her grandmother's lashing out and passive-aggressiveness stop, and finding common ground with her grandmother is not going to defuse or de-escalate the situation.  Her grandmother refuses to respect necessary boundaries, and  while finding common ground may make things better temporarily, it doesn't negate the fact that those boundaries need to exist for a reason.  Old age doesn't negate the need to be polite and respect other people's boundaries.

So I think Ko-Ko should accept the bathing suit, write a gracious letter of thanks to her grandmother and then do whatever she wants with the bathing suit to get through this particular situation, and then enlist her parents' help in setting firm boundaries with her grandmother in a non-confrontational way.  For example, if her grandmother ever again lashes out and gives a passive-aggressive gift, the gift will be refused.  Ko-Ko isn't required to accept her grandmother's gifts when they aren't offered in a generous spirit of mind, and using gifts to try to impose your will on others doesn't strike me as a generous spirit of mind.

[CosmicPossum]

I believe the story, too!  I know how my mom is (she's 33 years older than me).  She was bad enough when I was a teenager, but when my son got to that age!  WOW!  Thank goodness he has two assets--a personality that automatically resists the guilt trips she tries to send him on & me to run interference.

I remember when I was about 18.  Had a job & an apartment.  The rage then was a "hostess" gown---to the floor, usually some very nice material, very flowy (I know that's not a real word).  The idea was casual elegance.  I desperately wanted one of these.  I went to far as to show her some being advertised in the local newspaper.

Guess what I got for Christmas!  Yea, a hostess gown. . .with a neck up to here & in a blue/pink nursery print. 

[housewife2k]

could it be that Granny was a "wild child" in her younger days? 

We had a few really - really - straight laced women in the plant when I first started working there.  Who like your Grandma were VERY critical of "a whole lot of stuff"

Then I found out some stories through the grapevine that they were pretty wild when they were young. (Dad knew a lot of stories about a lot of people)

 And I think that they turned all uptight on their own kids and grandkids to try to keep them from making some "big mistake" in their lives.

Maybe Grandma falls into this catagory?

My grandma was really strict with my sister when she became a teen, I was a tomboy, so never quite got the same degree of scrutiny. Come to find out, Gramma was a cocktail waitress in a small seedy club in OK before she had my mom, the sort of club that involved "Tall boots, blond wigs, and not much else", according to gramma when she infromed me. I was flabergasted! Here she was telling my sister not to wear that skirt, too short, not to stay out late with boys-unsafe, not to wear a two peice swimsuit-immodest, and so on, when Gramma was, by her own admission, a girl with a certain reputaion.  The only way I found out, I asked her why she was so hard on my sister. I ASKED. I understood where she was coming from then, as did my sister, agreements were made as to what was accaptable and not, by todays standards, and promises were made never to be a nearly naked cocktail waitress. Gramma just didn't want us repeating what she felt her mistakes were.

Koko, ask you Gramma why she is doing the things she is.

[Ko-Ko]

Sorry, everybody, I have been busy lately and I just remembered I had forgotten to reply to my own thread! Anyway, thanks for all your advice. I'm probably just going to give the suit away, since someone else could get better use out of it than I would, and Grandma never sees me swimming anyway. I wouldn't care so much if she just voiced her objections nicely, rather than immediately going on the offensive. Like in the other thread when I didn't come home for dinner, she could have just told me that there must have been some kind of misunderstanding, (though I'm sure there wasn't) but instead she chose to get angry. If she could just be nicer about it, then she wouldn't make me upset. I probably wouldn't listen to her, but I would at least get the impression that she was only trying to help, rather than trying to cause trouble.

Ko-Ko